Can sciences prove the existence of God ?

[StanJon]

I wish you the best and I think you've made one heck of an assumption. Could there be consequences? Sure there could. But I believe if a wise, loving, and fair God exists, he is not going to hammer any intelligent human being for questioning the TOTAL lack of evidence of his existence as described in the Christian Bible. Try as you may to counter, it's just not evidence. If the Christian God is our father, he is an absent father, and bears the responsibility for this. I don't expect you to agree.

You are right on one thing Axis. I strongly disagree with your comment. God is not an absent Father to His children or to someone who seek Him with all their heart. God is everywhere. He is omnipresent and we can find Him if we seek Him.

By "find Him," I don't mean just clinging to a vague notion that God exists, but rather, experiencing an intimate, moment-to-moment flow of understanding, guidance, and the special energy called "grace," coming directly from Him to us.

After all, not only is God omnipresent, but we're told His greatest desire is to have a personal relationship with each of us, whom He created in His image – to direct our paths and become our ultimate destiny. In other words, to be our God.

Just as how you would converse with a close friend and tell him/her your hopes and dreams, your struggle, your failure, etc. So our heavenly Father invites us to communicate with Him. Through constant communication (prayer) we create an intimate relationship with Him, and you will hear Him reply if you are not insensitive to His voice... And you will also know His existence by His works in your life.

Now just think what if there is a God, but the writers of the Bible were superstitious ancient people who wrote their best description of human's place under God, but for lack of any real interaction with the divine, totally got it wrong? And the real God took offense because no one on Earth got it right? If he was fair, do you think he'd punish all of us for eternity? I don't think so, but I'm an optimist.

The Bible says that sin bringeth forth death; James 1:13-15 "13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."


Now there are three definitions of sin according to the bible.


"Sin is the transgression of the law." (1 John 3:4)
This implies that sin is strictly the breaking of God's law. John certainly implies God's involvement as both Lawgiver and Judge. God will judge each person according to the standards expressed in His law

"To him that knoweth to do good and doesth it not, to him it is sin." (James 4:17)
We have all the knowledge about what to do and how to live righteously, but if we fail to do it, to put it into practice, it is sin to us. It becomes a selfish pursuit of knowledge, and we are missing the reason that God gave it to us.

"whatsoever is not of faith is sin". (Romans 14:23)
This verse is frequently used in the Family to support the doctrine that personal faith justifies actions. So, if someone wasn’t sure if something was right or not, this means that they wouldn’t have the ‘faith’ for it, and for them the action would be wrong. However, if someone else prayed about the same situation and felt peace in their heart about it, this person could declare that he or she ‘had the faith’, and so for them the action would be right. “Whatever is not from faith is sin” thus becomes “whatever is from faith is right.”

What i am trying to say is, if we meditate on those scriptures, and try to do what is right (follow the will of God) there will be no condemnation. Therefore, we will live eternally, not punished.

 

[Minor Axis]

You are right on one thing Axis. I strongly disagree with your comment. God is not an absent Father to His children or to someone who seek Him with all their heart. God is everywhere. He is omnipresent and we can find Him if we seek Him.

Asumptions.

By "find Him," I don't mean just clinging to a vague notion that God exists, but rather, experiencing an intimate, moment-to-moment flow of understanding, guidance, and the special energy called "grace," coming directly from Him to us.

Good vibes coming from an unverifiable source.

After all, not only is God omnipresent, but we're told His greatest desire is to have a personal relationship with each of us, whom He created in His image – to direct our paths and become our ultimate destiny. In other words, to be our God.

He has failed in this regard.

Just as how you would converse with a close friend and tell him/her your hopes and dreams, your struggle, your failure, etc. So our heavenly Father invites us to communicate with Him. Through constant communication (prayer) we create an intimate relationship with Him, and you will hear Him reply if you are not insensitive to His voice... And you will also know His existence by His works in your life.

Prayer is 1 way communication. As far as relationships go, it is unteniable. If God has spoken to you, it's a personal, unverifiable occurrence and I'm happy for you, but what you have experienced, if it is unknown to me, then it's questionable, and I have every right to do so. A relationship is not about blind faith. If I expect some kind of meaningful acknowledgment or return in communication and don't get it, is it my fault? Do I need to pray harder? Actually it's God's fault which I really don't begrudge because after many years of consideration, I don't think he really exists, at least as Christianity portrays him. So he's going to be grumpy and not talk to me? Very mature, what I would expect of a parent.

As far as "his works in your life"- is it God's intervention, or hard work rewarded by people who recognize your value, or luck/fate? There is no way to know for sure. You assume it's God, fine, but that does not mean your truth is my truth.

The Bible says ... What i am trying to say is, if we meditate on those scriptures, and try to do what is right (follow the will of God) there will be no condemnation. Therefore, we will live eternally, not punished.

Listen, you have latched onto the Bible, a document made up of ancient scripts, handed down by word of mouth, written, rewritten, translated multiple times, and vetted by an organization with an agenda. That's your truth. But if your wrong, I don't think the HGB (Heavenly Governing Body) will hold it against you. And for the same reason I don't think it will be held against me if I am wrong. Relationships are not build on guessing, imagination, and wishful thinking. If God wanted he could make his precense known in a more mature, straight forward manner.

 

[StanJon]

Well Axis, the Bible is all i know, so it is all i can rely on to back my arguments.

Was the Bible written by men, yes. Is the Bible the inspiration of God, it certainly is. When i say the Bible or the authors who wrote the Bible rather is inspired by God, i don't necessarily mean that God took control of that person and jotted down what He wanted to, i don't mean that He was in their presence (although it happen in some instances, e.g Moses) commanding them, saying this is what should be done or this is what you should write. What i am trying to indicate is that God has had such a major impact on their lives that it influenced them to document everything He has done and quite possibly His will. Is the Bible good for correction, righteousness and complete transformation of lives, absolutely. Now, if the Bible is morally excellent and can lead my life to peace, righteousness and joy why would i deviate from such a wonderful thing? Because i cannot see the person who it's about? Because when i ask for proof of His existence, He doesn't make an appearance? I don't think so.

I am not trying to force anything on anyone. I am just sharing my personal experience and hope some day you will accept it and allow god to lead your lives.

Before i go let me add that i don't believe anything happened by luck or chance. Everyone is rewarded for good, hard work and determination, and God is our rewarder.

I am not perfect. I have had my doubts too. I have ask the same questions you asked. But it is not the child's place to question the parent or the servant is master. I am sure every parent wants whats best for their child and every master for their servant. God is our Father, He is our creator, and we should abide by His words because it is His will.


More power to you sir :thumbup

 

[Minor Axis]

Well Axis, the Bible is all i know, so it is all i can rely on to back my arguments.

I don't mind people pushing their faith as long as they say things like "I believe" vs "this is how it is you sinner!" No, you have not called me a sinner (I think).

What i am trying to indicate is that God has had such a major impact on their lives that it influenced them to document everything He has done and quite possibly His will.

Yes it is possible.

Is the Bible good for correction, righteousness and complete transformation of lives, absolutely. Now, if the Bible is morally excellent and can lead my life to peace, righteousness and joy why would i deviate from such a wonderful thing? Because i cannot see the person who it's about? Because when i ask for proof of His existence, He doesn't make an appearance? I don't think so.

No doubt there are some good things in the Bible. Living your life by it's teaching, as long as you pick and choose the ones applicable for today seems reasonable. For example, we really don't stone people any more.

I am not trying to force anything on anyone. I am just sharing my personal experience and hope some day you will accept it and allow god to lead your lives.

If you are referring to following the Bible as a rule book, ok. Where these rules come from is debatable as we have been doing. I realize when you make the leap into belief, you are sold 100%. The only point I would stress is that just because you are sold, what you are sold on might be an excellent frame work to live you life by, but it does not necessarily mean you have all your facts straight about the afterlife (if there is one) and our relationship with who/what controls our lives if anything controls it at all.

Before i go let me add that i don't believe anything happened by luck or chance. Everyone is rewarded for good, hard work and determination, and God is our rewarder.

It's possible, but not factual and if there are rewards they may not come in this life, but the next. My reasoning- too many bad things happen to good people on this Earth unless you want to promote the "good" experience you get dealing with some tragedy.

I am not perfect. I have had my doubts too. I have ask the same questions you asked. But it is not the child's place to question the parent or the servant is master. I am sure every parent wants whats best for their child and every master for their servant. God is our Father, He is our creator, and we should abide by His words because it is His will.

I can accept your statement of "faith".

More power to you sir :thumbup

And to you! I think you are a good guy motivated to help people out. I am very comfortable with my beliefs too.

 

[Gijs]

I think it will be impossible to prove the existence of God even if our level of technology allows as to manipulate all of nature including time and space. So, I think it will always be impossible. Why? Well because according to Einstein time is a dimension just like space. Space is part of nature, or the universe. And the universe is created by God. That means God created time so God cannot be part of our universe. If he was part of the universe there wouldn`t be time to create the universe, that is a logical paradox. Of course you have to believe in the big bang theory to follow my logic. But if God stands outside the universe and isn`t part of it at all, his presence can never be proved, because science can only deal that what is part of nature. An alternative is the pandeïstic point of view in which God is the universe.

 

[Minor Axis]

I think it will be impossible to prove the existence of God even if our level of technology allows as to manipulate all of nature including time and space. So, I think it will always be impossible. Why? Well because according to Einstein time is a dimension just like space. Space is part of nature, or the universe. And the universe is created by God. That means God created time so God cannot be part of our universe. If he was part of the universe there wouldn`t be time to create the universe, that is a logical paradox. Of course you have to believe in the big bang theory to follow my logic. But if God stands outside the universe and isn`t part of it at all, his presence can never be proved, because science can only deal that what is part of nature. An alternative is the pandeïstic point of view in which God is the universe.

The key word is "paradox". What I was telling Sylvian & Stan is that I'm ok with the word "God" if it is used as a catch all phrase representative of a system we don't understand. The problem is when Christians, Muslims, and your favorite religion knows all about God, his goals, motivation, his enfluence, and the rules he has created for us. It is imagination and wishful thinking from my perspective.

What I most dislike about tradiional religious views is that God is describes as the great and powerful, all wonderful, the-best-ever divine entity but he expects to be worshiped?? IMO this would disqualify him as the "ultimate" but instead would label him as a severely flawed divine entity. Why? Because there is no worthy relationship where the foundation does not include mutual respect. Real love would allow those of us who question, to seek out the truth and not be punished for not blindly believing. Do you think anyone in their right minds if not given adequate evidence would not want to believe in our Father In Heaven? Heaven, life everlasting it's a great deal if it's not a fairy tail. And after we discovered his existence, there would be no worshiping because someone who insists on being worshiped does not really love us. Does anyone here think that worship is part of any healthy relationship? If it is not good for human to human, why would it be good for human to god? If you entire existence involves submitting to something that has power over you, you consider that to be a good relationship? Bah.

IMO, most of the hard core views are pushed by Earth bound humans whose number one goal is control, manipulation, and self enrichment aided by another group who really, really want it to be true so they can sleep at night comforted by the thought of eternal salvation.

 

[Crackers]

If we agree that God is supernatural.
And we agree that science can only be applied to the things that are natural.

Then I think we can agree that science isn't going to prove the existence of God.

What I most dislike about tradiional religious views is that God is describes as the great and powerful, all wonderful, the-best-ever divine entity but he expects to be worshiped?? IMO this would disqualify him as the "ultimate" but instead would label him as a severely flawed divine entity. Why? Because there is no worthy relationship where the foundation does not include mutual respect.

I don't agree with this.
Let's use Alexander the Great as an example.
Alexander conquered every part of the world his people had knowledge of at the time.
Now, I can recognise that if I were a citizen in his empire that he is better than me. And deserves worship. Not only does he provide the place where I live but he is also a symbol of greatness; someone to look up to and admire. If he regards me as "lesser" and doesn't return my respect for him then that is fine. He is far more deserving of respect than I am. If he expects me to worship him that's fine because his request is justified.

The same goes for God. Only God is something you have to have faith in. Whereas back in Alexander's day you didn't require faith to find someone worthy of worship.

 

[All Else Failed]

If we agree that God is supernatural.
And we agree that science can only be applied to the things that are natural.

Then I think we can agree that science isn't going to prove the existence of God.

I don't agree with this.
Let's use Alexander the Great as an example.
Alexander conquered every part of the world his people had knowledge of at the time.
Now, I can recognise that if I were a citizen in his empire that he is better than me. And deserves worship. Not only does he provide the place where I live but he is also a symbol of greatness; someone to look up to and admire. If he regards me as "lesser" and doesn't return my respect for him then that is fine. He is far more deserving of respect than I am. If he expects me to worship him that's fine because his request is justified.

The same goes for God. Only God is something you have to have faith in. Whereas back in Alexander's day you didn't require faith to find someone worthy of worship.

someone being "better than you" doesn't justify worship.

God wanting anything at all contradicts "perfection", actually, since a perfect being can't possibly want or need anything.


This is why I dislike Christianity. It automatically makes humans unworthy and grovelling lessers.

 

[Crackers]

someone being "better than you" doesn't justify worship.

I was basically explaining that someone who is "superior" might be justified in thinking he deserves worship.

God wanting anything at all contradicts "perfection", actually, since a perfect being can't possibly want or need anything.

That's a very narrow view on what "perfection" is.

This is why I dislike Christianity. It automatically makes humans unworthy and grovelling lessers.

Yes, it's a self-destructive set of beliefs.

 

[All Else Failed]

what is perfection to you?

 

[Crackers]

what is perfection to you?

"Without flaw".

But it can be difficult to objectify what constitutes as a flaw sometimes.

I guess the best way to do it is to take a subject and lay down a criteria of what you would call a "perfect example". Then take an example and compare it to that criteria.

Like if I say "the perfect film is the one I enjoy from beginning to end", then any film that satisfies this is "perfect."

Saying what makes a "perfect God" is a difficult thing to do though. It would probably just come down to a matter of opinion.

 

[Crackers]

The immune system which may be equated completely with the "military system":
Military barracks (lymph nodes) .. the soldiers (white blood cells and lymphocytes) .. camps and schools of education and training course (the bone marrow and thymus) .. intelligence Service (antibody) .. The means of communication used by the body's cells to ask for help from the "military system" when a foreign attack ( cytokines ) ... Fully integrated system !
The question here is: where did this amazing integration come from ? how did it begin ? how did this integration create itself ? all this is happening now in your body while you are saying there is no god !!!

"Something happens" is in no way an indication towards the existence of any God. No matter how complex that "something" is.

Oh let's take another example: Mother and foetus .. In most cases, fetal and mother's blood group are different, and there is a vital exchange between the mother's and the fetal blood. However, the blood mixing is not possible thanks to a vital barrier (placenta). This is really a miracle that cannot begin by chance ! can the stupid theory of evolution explain the beginning of this miracle ?

The placenta isn't a "barrier."

Another example: Sex: Human and most other living organisms have two sexes totally different but quite integrated to the most important function to ensure survival. Not only that, but for both sexes, the so-called "natural instinct" which attract both sexes to each other! really great integration! How did it start? How did this integration create itself? Is there another chance theory that can explain this without a creator?

How did it start?
Is this what you are looking for?
"In the natural sciences, abiogenesis, or origin of life, is the study of how life on Earth could have arisen from inanimate matter."
Or perhaps you are asking about the origin of the Universe. Well in that case there is obviously the Big Bang theory.

How did this integration create itself?
Evolution.

Is there another chance theory that can explain this without a creator?
What the hell is a "chance theory"?

Someone says: "I don't believe in God because I don't see him !!!" .. my man you can not even see the whole universe ! how about it's creator ???

Yeah, we can't see the whole Universe, though there is atleast evidence to suggest that it exists. That's more that can be said for God.

You should not believe in a god dreamed up by man ! You should believe in a god that is really God. The only real god is the god of Abraham, Isaac, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad and the other prophets agreed by the Quran. Quran says:

You say we shouldn't believe in a god dreamed up by man and then proceed to give us a list of men who dreamed up a god.

For christianity: Jesus was only a man, born and die like any human. it's impossible for him to be the creator of the whole universe !. The lexical and the logical meaning of "GOD" is that the GOD is the creator, and it is impossible to believe that a creature is bigger or stronger than its creator !!! in Islam GOD has created everything. and there is nothing stronger than GOD, God is the absolute power. so how can you see him, and you did not even been able to see the whole universe ?.

I thought gods where supposed to be omnipotent. Doesn't omnipotency include the power to change yourself into a man?

The same for Hindus, there are several "Gods", all are made by "stones" by men. all these gods are just parts of the god called "brahma". also in Hindus: if the body dies, the spirit left him to get another body !!! therefore, eating meat is forbidden. and I didn't remember if my spirit was in another body !! ... you too.

In Islam, God is believed to be the only real supreme being, all-powerful and all knowing Creator, Sustainer, Ordainer, and Judge of the universe. Islam puts a heavy emphasis on the conceptualization of God as strictly singular. He is unique and inherently one, all-merciful and omnipotent. he has the most logical attributes:
The Most Gracious
The Most Merciful
The Ever Forgiving
The Ever Providing
The Lord and Cherisher of the Worlds
The Self Subsisting (upon whom all creatures depend for sustenance)
The Eternal Lord (who never dies)
The Supremely Wise

So your saying that we should believe in the islamic god because he seems the best?

The theory of evolution is a failed theory that cannot even prove itself !!! how about the examples at the beginning of this thread ?

Of course a theory isn't going to prove itself. It's up to beings capable of reason to do that. It's not like my computer is ever going to prove itself to exist but I can try and prove that it does.

You and and all the atheists say so ! before the human existed, wasn't "the immune system" nothing ? so how did it evolve from nothing to the current format ?

Big bang -> lots of dust -> dust clumps together -> forms life -> life adapts to environment

In Islam and like what is shown in the Quran, God can create somthing from nothing .. and can render something nothing ! ( ps: Einstein proved something like this in his famous theory: e=mc2 )

Energy = (mass) x (speed of light)^2

In other words: energy can be converted into mass and mass can be converted into energy. Not "mass can be converted into nothing" and "nothing can be converted into mass."

Why would you feel sorry for me having faith and having that faith make me happy?

I know you were talking to another guy and personally I don't "feel sorry for you". However, having "faith" is a way of dressing up reality. Making things seem better than they actually are. You aren't satisfied with the natural world so you have to create a supernatural world of your own that you can live in and feel content; which is an affront, a mockery, a slander, of the real world. It comes down to: "what makes you so arrogant as to believe that this world isn't good enough for you?"

Because I believe that "something cannot come from nothing"

Just because you believe that doesn't make it so.

we will find that the idea of atheism can never explain the beginning of the functional integration of these things.

Of course atheism can't! Atheism is just the lack of belief in the existance of a god! However, science can prove the "beginning of the functional integration of these things" and science doesn't require a god.

Do you want Allah ( the greater than the Whole universe ) to come to your house and say : "believe in me !" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! really better idea

It would definitely help.

God gave a message to the prophet to deliver to as many people as possible .. After that, it's the Muslims who are in charge of delivering the message of God throughout the world. is this difficult to understand ?

Understand? No.
Believe? Yes.

Therefore, God sent his last prophet "Muhammad" to guide all the humanity back to the right path. I hope this will be well understood .. I have all the proofs.

If you have "all the proofs" then i'm tempted to call you "God." Oh, wait. Just because someone said something doesn't mean it's true.

Jesus says: “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.” (Mark 10:18)

Well if nobody is good then why am I expected to believe that you, or anyone, has the goodness to be honest with me?

Making people believe they aren't "good" is religion's greatest crime. It wrecks people's pride and self-esteem by telling them that they are evil and incompetent. So these people waste their lives self-pitying and feelings valueless and worthless.

Let's take an example, since GOD is the eternal lord, and the matter can turn to nothing ( as proven by Einstein's theory: E=MC2 ) .. then the nature of GOD cannot be compared with the matter !

Pro-tip:

If a you believe a scientific theory supports any faith then you didn't grasp the scientific theory in the first place.

edit: check out this pic: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/CMB_Timeline75.jpg

 

[Minor Axis]

If we agree that God is supernatural.
And we agree that science can only be applied to the things that are natural.

Then I think we can agree that science isn't going to prove the existence of God.

I don't agree with this.
Let's use Alexander the Great as an example.
Alexander conquered every part of the world his people had knowledge of at the time.
Now, I can recognise that if I were a citizen in his empire that he is better than me. And deserves worship. Not only does he provide the place where I live but he is also a symbol of greatness; someone to look up to and admire. If he regards me as "lesser" and doesn't return my respect for him then that is fine. He is far more deserving of respect than I am. If he expects me to worship him that's fine because his request is justified.

The same goes for God. Only God is something you have to have faith in. Whereas back in Alexander's day you didn't require faith to find someone worthy of worship.

There is a huge difference between admiration and worship. However after stumbling across this definition of worship, "to give worth to something" I must adjust my position a bit, although my impression (among the religious) is that "worship" is regarded as many steps above simply giving worth to something. Bottom line, worship may not be as bad as my original premise unless the relationship is one way. Relationships must be a two way street to be worthy. One way relationships are unhealthy. A dictator is still a dictator.

 

[RenegadeAced]

Can science disprove the existence of God?

 

[Minor Axis]

Can science disprove the existence of God?

What do you think?