Can sciences prove the existence of God ?

[Minor Axis]

Nice failure way to deny the existence of god :clap

What are you talking about? I'm agreeing with you. Our differences mostly come from what the definition of God is. 1)intelligent diety or 2) a physical process, that may or may not have intelligent control, the origins we don't understand or the origins that are beyond our comprehension. There is no known answer at this point in time, argue till your blue...

God is the only real supreme being, all-powerful and all knowing Creator, Sustainer, Ordainer, and Judge of the universe. all-merciful and omnipotent. he has the most logical attributes:
The Most Gracious
The Most Merciful
The Ever Forgiving
The Ever Providing
The Lord and Cherisher of the Worlds
The Self Subsisting (upon whom all creatures depend for sustenance)
The Eternal Lord (who never dies)
The Supremely Wise

Your faith speaking? Wonderful. Stop calling it a fact. You continue to think you can convince by quoting a Holy Book or a web site that believes in the absolute truth of a particular religious dogma. Ancient Holy books, no matter the source have no standard for proof. They are wonderful for faith, but not truth. The standard you argue is a personal one. Others must feel what you feel, otherwise proof is needed and unfortunately there is none. Try making some arguments using logic without using religious sources as a crutch and see how far you get.

 

[Sylviane88]

What are you talking about? I'm agreeing with you. Our differences mostly come from what the definition of God is. 1)intelligent diety or 2) a physical process, that may or may not have intelligent control, the origins we don't understand or the origins that are beyond our comprehension. There is no known answer at this point in time, argue till your blue...

Your faith speaking? Wonderful. Stop calling it a fact. You continue to think you can convince by quoting a Holy Book or a web site that believes in the absolute truth of a particular religious dogma. Ancient Holy books, no matter the source have no standard for proof. They are wonderful for faith, but not truth. The standard you argue is a personal one. Others must feel what you feel, otherwise proof is needed and unfortunately there is none. Try making some arguments using logic without using religious sources as a crutch and see how far you get.

You want scientific proofs to show that Islam's God is the true God ???? Listen "Minor Axis", The topic's title wasn't ""Can science show what/who is God ?"" ... The other members here failed to answer some clear questions, and you agreed that God exist, therefore, this topic has reached its goal ! See the title: ""Can sciences prove the existence of God ?"" ... The answer now is: Yes ( You agreed so and the others failed to prove the contrary ! ) .. and there are several kinds of proofs .. one of them is very useful when we have two antithetical questions ( like theism and atheism ) .. simply we can prove that one of the two questions is wrong .. the other must be correct ! .. Here, as long as atheism could not answer some clear questions, it is wrong ... and that means that theism is true and god : exist !

Now, your mind told you that your idea about the existence of god was wrong ! ... your interest in the matter should now be in the most ... I gave you only the beginning of the thread ! ... you should -yourself- complement the investigation into the matter ( and that depend on your interest ) ... but take my advice: at this stage: you must not rely on science to identify the true God ... All what you have to rely on is the holy books comparing them with the logic and reality ( The whole matter depend on your interest ! So, make an effort ) ... In Islam: God can forgive you in three cases:
-if you never heared about islam in your life.
-if you heared about islam but not enough to call attention.
-if you heard only lies about it, but you couldn't investigate the matter (you had not the means).
But if you heared about islam enough to call attention, and you had the means to search and discover the truth. however you didn't do anything, you are sentenced by God.

Cordially - Sylviane

 

[StanJon]

You want scientific proofs to show that Islam's God is the true God ???? Listen "Minor Axis", The topic's title wasn't ""Can science show what/who is God ?"" ... The other members here failed to answer some clear questions, and you agreed that God exist, therefore, this topic has reached its goal ! See the title: ""Can sciences prove the existence of God ?"" ... The answer now is: Yes ( You agreed so and the others failed to prove the contrary ! ) .. and there are several kinds of proofs .. one of them is very useful when we have two antithetical questions ( like theism and atheism ) .. simply we can prove that one of the two questions is wrong .. the other must be correct ! .. Here, as long as atheism could not answer some clear questions, it is wrong ... and that means that theism is true and god : exist !

Now, your mind told you that your idea about the existence of god was wrong ! ... your interest in the matter should now be in the most ... I gave you only the beginning of the thread ! ... you should -yourself- complement the investigation into the matter ( and that depend on your interest ) ... but take my advice: at this stage: you must not rely on science to identify the true God ... All what you have to rely on is the holy books comparing them with the logic and reality ( The whole matter depend on your interest ! So, make an effort ) ...

:thumbup

 

[Alien Allen]

Thanks for my daily chuckle guys :thumbup

 

[Minor Axis]

You want scientific proofs to show that Islam's God is the true God ???? Listen "Minor Axis", The topic's title wasn't ""Can science show what/who is God ?""

Actually I said I believe in the concept of an abstract force, "God" if you like. Did science prove that? Absolutely not.

I believe you have good intentions as all good religious sales people do , however the only agreement here is that there is something beyond. I have no problem calling it God if we agree it's an abstract concept, but you come to this thread with a very specific definition pushing the existance of a specific God, what "he" stands for, what he is capable of doing, and how he views us, his children. To summarize, when you preach about the existence of God, it's Islam's God you refer to. Most religious people feel very strongly about definitions. While not following traditional beliefs, I am religious/spiritual and if we can't agree on the definition of God, there is no agreement, i.e., there is no proof of the existence of God as defined by Christians or Islam.

BTW, you don't need to put my forum name in quotes.

The answer now is: Yes ( You agreed so and the others failed to prove the contrary ! ) .. and there are several kinds of proofs .. one of them is very useful when we have two antithetical questions ( like theism and atheism ) .. simply we can prove that one of the two questions is wrong .. the other must be correct ! .. Here, as long as atheism could not answer some clear questions, it is wrong ... and that means that theism is true and god : exist !

This kind of non-logic is typical religious goobledegoop. What makes you think the human race is intelligent enough to even ask the right questions?

All what you have to rely on is the holy books comparing them with the logic and reality ( The whole matter depend on your interest ! So, make an effort

For what reason did you decide that holy books are the ultimate in truth? I'd say because it makes it easy for the sheep to buy into an agenda regardless of how truthful it is.

 

[Sylviane88]

“If the impossibility of formation of a complex organ through a series of small changes was ever to be proven my theory would have certainly collapsed. However I could not find such an organ...” (Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species: A Facsimile of the First Edition, Harvard University Press, 1964, p. 189.)

Darwin could not or might not have wanted to find such an organ at the premature levels of 19th century science. However the science of 20th century did study nature down to its minute details and it proved that the majority of living structures embody irreducible complexity. Therefore, Darwin’s theory has most “certainly collapsed” just as he feared ... As we examine the living beings we will not only see the immense error Darwinism makes, but also witness the greatness of wisdom behind the creation of these systems. These mechanisms will be found anywhere from the wings of a bird to inside a bat’s skull. Hence we will see the indisputable evidences of God’s creation without error. Likewise, the power and faculty of God to create without error is expressed in a chapter of the Quran as follows:

“He is God - the Creator, the Maker, the Giver of Form. To Him belong the Most Beautiful Names. Everything in the heavens and earth glorifies Him. He is the Almighty, the All-Wise.” (Quran 59:24)

What makes you think the human race is intelligent enough to even ask the right questions?

Your question leads me to ask you immediately: What makes you think the human race is intelligent enough to even know what is the nature of GOD ?

Yes, none can explain or even understand the physical nature of the sentiments, or the physical nature of the fire for example, then how do you want to know the nature of your god ? ... I'm afraid to tell you: you can never know so ! Therefore, the proof of his existence is sufficient to believe in him.

However, it is possible to understand the attributes of God that do not require one to make any mental pictures of Him: he is the only real supreme being, all-powerful and all knowing Creator, Sustainer, Ordainer, and Judge of the universe. all-merciful and omnipotent. The Most Gracious, The Ever Forgiving, The Ever Providing, The Lord and Cherisher of the Worlds, The Eternal Lord (who never dies).

Let's take an example, since GOD is the eternal lord, and the matter can turn to nothing ( as proven by Einstein's theory: E=MC2 ) .. then the nature of GOD cannot be compared with the matter !

God said: "Say, 'He is Allah, the One; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begets not, and neither is He begotten; And there is nothing that can be compared to Him." (Quran 112:1-4)

"No vision can grasp Him, But His grasp is over, All vision: He is above all comprehension, Yet is acquainted with all things." (Quran 6:103)

Some might say, ‘Granted that this god is a personal and living God, and that He has the attributes which you mentioned, why should He be the God of Islam and not, say the Christian or Jewish God?’ The God of Islam is the God of all true prophets of God from Adam down to Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. But it is a basic claim of the religion with which Muhammad came that previous religions have not been kept in their pristine form which those prophets advocated, but have been tampered with and distorted. The only religion whose book has taken upon itself to be preserved from any such distortions is the religion of the last of God’s prophets, namely Muhammad, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him. This is not to say that everything in those religions is false or bad. No! There is much in them that is good and true; it is only those elements in them that contradict Islam which must be false or bad. But even if they were to be purged of everything that is not in consonance with Islam, they would still be less perfect than Islam is, especially in their conceptions of God, therefore unsuitable for being universal religions.

 

[Minor Axis]

“He is God - the Creator, the Maker, the Giver of Form. To Him belong the Most Beautiful Names. Everything in the heavens and earth glorifies Him. He is the Almighty, the All-Wise.” (Quran 59:24)

Your response is faithful, but totally underwhelming for revealing the truth of your religious beliefs. You are putting forth your faith and scripture as proof and truth. A few responses back I asked you to use logic to prove your point and you are unable to do that. But I don't hold it against you. It is a standard that all organized religions are unable to satisfy. It's your faith and nothing more.

 

[Sylviane88]

Your response is faithful, but totally underwhelming for revealing the truth of your religious beliefs. You are putting forth your faith and scripture as proof and truth. A few responses back I asked you to use logic to prove your point and you are unable to do that. But I don't hold it against you. It is a standard that all organized religions are unable to satisfy. It's your faith and nothing more.

If you are meaning by "my point": the existence of god, I provided logical proofs and you agreed the point !

But If you are meaning: who/what is god ( I guess this is what you are meaning ): I told you a few responses back too: that you don't need to sciences or logic to know the nature of god as long as you know that he really exists, I told you that all what you need to is your brain first, and the holy books second, to make a serious investigation .. it will be really a loooooooong investigation, but that depend on your interest :thumbup .. and believe me you'll finally find the real religion. Just one thing, do not rely on the sources that are full of hatred !

 

[Minor Axis]

If you are meaning by "my point": the existence of god, I provided logical proofs and you agreed the point !

But If you are meaning: who/what is god ( I guess this is what you are meaning ): I told you a few responses back too: that you don't need to sciences or logic to know the nature of god as long as you know that he really exists, I told you that all what you need to is your brain first, and the holy books second, to make a serious investigation .. it will be really a loooooooong investigation, but that depend on your interest :thumbup .. and believe me you'll finally find the real religion. Just one thing, do not rely on the sources that are full of hatred !

I'm sensing circular motion in our discussion.

When you say "can science prove the existance of God" what exactly are you saying? Something vague can be proven or your definition of God can be proven? I don't believe either one can be proven. Obviously God can be felt as millions testify, but I would call that self delusion or wishful thinking. Regarding proof, just because I believe in something does not mean it's proven. The extent of our agreement is that there, most likely is something, a process beyond our understanding and includes some form of existence after physical death. The difference between us is that I call this my faith, while you have discerned the "truth" based on your reading of scripture and call it "fact" even though it does not meet the standard for being a fact. It's not proven, it's faith.

Most religions fight over the details. Based on your definition of God, we don't agree. The existance of Islam/Christianitie's God is not proven as "can science prove the existance of God". While I admit it's possible I see no reason to place all my hopes on ancient scripts written by ancient supersititous people. Might as well go with Star Wars "The Force".

The problem I have is that you promote "God" with very specific attributes while I say there is no way to determine anything about "God" in a factual manner. You have determined God is as described in the Quran. While in my opinion there is no evidence what so ever that God is a single intelligent entity (there could be more than one), that God/the process is intelligent, that he loves us, that he is even aware of our individual existence, that we were made in his image, that we must believe in him to get to heaven, and if we don't believe, we will burn in hell for eternity (<-a Christian concept?). These views are mostly a means of manipulating others to believe or result from our imagined self importance in the scheme of physical existance.

 

[StanJon]

If no believer can prove certainly the existence of God, no atheist can also prove certainly the inexistence of god. It is a very big question that can not be answered by the current science: Does God exist ?

Indeed, science can not prove the existence of God directly .. However, it may do so indirectly ! how so ? let's take an example from the biology:​

The immune system which may be equated completely with the "military system":

Military barracks (lymph nodes) .. the soldiers (white blood cells and lymphocytes) .. camps and schools of education and training course (the bone marrow and thymus) .. intelligence Service (antibody) .. The means of communication used by the body's cells to ask for help from the "military system" when a foreign attack ( cytokines ) ... Fully integrated system !
The question here is: where did this amazing integration come from ? how did it begin ? how did this integration create itself ? all this is happening now in your body while you are saying there is no god !!!

Oh let's take another example: Mother and foetus .. In most cases, fetal and mother's blood group are different, and there is a vital exchange between the mother's and the fetal blood. However, the blood mixing is not possible thanks to a vital barrier (placenta). This is really a miracle that cannot begin by chance ! can the stupid theory of evolution explain the beginning of this miracle ?

Another example: Sex: Human and most other living organisms have two sexes totally different but quite integrated to the most important function to ensure survival. Not only that, but for both sexes, the so-called "natural instinct" which attract both sexes to each other! really great integration! How did it start? How did this integration create itself? Is there another chance theory that can explain this without a creator?​

There are so many other clear examples in the science that can lead us to the answer of our question.​

Someone says: "I don't believe in God because I don't see him !!!" .. my man you can not even see the whole universe ! how about it's creator ???
Someone says: "Who created God ?" .. This question is totally idiot ! God is the creator not the created ! I'm afraid to say that our mind cannot overpass this question because that leads us to an unlimited number of questions: who created the creator of god ? who created the creator of the creator of god ?!!!!!!!!!! who :mad ? and finally we will find the creator and not created which is: God .​

Cordially - Sylviane​

I finally understand what you are saying Sylviane after a brief research on the net. Everything has to come from something and that something leads us to God.

 

[Alien Allen]

Jack Lousma a former astranaut speaking about the size of the universe.

News/Talk 760 WJR



His explanation gives one a sense of how huge the universe is. He clearly is a religious guy and uses that to make a point about it being a result of a god. Seems like just the opposite. It is too huge and vast to every be created by one entity.

Taking the religious aspect out of it though it does give one a sense of how truly huge the universe is. And that is by todays standards. Who knows what we will learn in the future that might prove it is even larger.

 

[Minor Axis]

I finally understand what you are saying Sylviane after a brief research on the net. Everything has to come from something and that something leads us to God.

Stan, I would not argue that "everything has to come from something", the question is what is that something? You read the Bible and got saved, so you know what God is. I suggest that the Bible influenced you, that it seemed to answer all the significant questions in your life and you embraced it fully.

When you say "that something leads us to God", I assume you speaking of the Christian God, and that is a huge assumption, isn't it? Is that your faith talking or are you speaking as if this is ultimate truth? I ask because there was a time when humans thought the Earth was flat and that we were the center of the universe. Things change as we evolve and gain knowledge.

 

[StanJon]

Jack Lousma a former astranaut speaking about the size of the universe.

News/Talk 760 WJR



His explanation gives one a sense of how huge the universe is. He clearly is a religious guy and uses that to make a point about it being a result of a god. Seems like just the opposite. It is too huge and vast to every be created by one entity.

Taking the religious aspect out of it though it does give one a sense of how truly huge the universe is. And that is by todays standards. Who knows what we will learn in the future that might prove it is even larger.

Wow! That is fascinating. Who would have thought the universe was that huge... Huge is a understatement.. It's humongous! This gives me and idea for a controversial topic.

 

[Alien Allen]

Wow! That is fascinating. Who would have thought the universe was that huge... Huge is a understatement.. It's humongous! This gives me and idea for a controversial topic.

That really gives it some perspective doesn't it :cool

 

[StanJon]

Stan, I would not argue that "everything has to come from something", the question is what is that something? You read the Bible and got saved, so you know what God is. I suggest that the Bible influenced you, that it seemed to answer all the significant questions in your life and you embraced it fully.

When you say "that something leads us to God", I assume you speaking of the Christian God, and that is a huge assumption, isn't it? Is that your faith talking or are you speaking as if this is ultimate truth? I ask because there was a time when human's thought the Earth was flat and that we were the center of the universe. Things change as we evolve and gain knowledge.

That notion is coming from my faith and i believe it is the ultimate truth as well Axis. There was also a time when people started believing in a ultimate being (God) too. And up until now we still believe that. No matter how evolved or knowledgeable we get, we still cannot prove that that claim is false. All we can do is remove the misleading guise and prove that there is only one true God. And when i say remove the guise, i mean that we can prove that a molten image created is not a God or the river, volcanoes, the wind, sun etc is not a God but the work of God. And that God cannot be created.

St. Thomas Aquinas said " [FONT=&quot]The "nothing is caused by itself" argument. For example, a table is brought into being by a carpenter, who is caused by his parents. Again, we cannot go on to infinity, so there must be a first cause, which is God[/FONT]"

[FONT=&quot] " All physical things, even mountains, boulders, and rivers, come into being and go out of existence, no matter how long they last. Therefore, since time is infinite, there must be some time at which none of these things existed. But if there were nothing at that point in time, how could there be anything at all now, since nothing cannot cause anything? Thus, there must always have been at least one necessary thing that is eternal, which is God. [/FONT]"

 

[Minor Axis]

St. Thomas Aquinas said " [FONT=&quot]The "nothing is caused by itself" argument. For example, a table is brought into being by a carpenter, who is caused by his parents. Again, we cannot go on to infinity, so there must be a first cause, which is God[/FONT]"

Your views as with most religious people are conveniently simple. That's ok, but not convincing to me. Again my problem is not that "there is something", the problem is that you know exactly who and what that something is.

[FONT=&quot]

"But if there were nothing at that point in time, how could there be anything at all now, since nothing cannot cause anything? Thus, there must always have been at least one necessary thing that is eternal, which is God.

[/FONT]

Why must it? For argument's sake, lets say there are multiple Gods, and that we exist in the jurisdiction of just one of those Gods where no other God is allowed to exist. How the heck would we know? You'd say "why the Bible tells us" and I'd say "why is the Bible correct?" There is no way to prove any of this stuff, just conjecture and wishful thinking.

 

[StanJon]

Your views as with most religious people are conveniently simple. That's ok, but not convincing to me. Again my problem is not that "there is something", the problem is that you know exactly who and what that something is.

So you believe"there is something"... Don't you think that that something would want us to know He/It exist? A car manufacturer would not design a car without publicizing their name or company. And how do they publicize their company? Through another body of people (media). So there is the possibility that God created the world and inspired writers to write about Him. I hope you get what i am trying to say.

 

[Minor Axis]

So you believe"there is something"... Don't you think that that something would want us to know He/It exist? A car manufacturer would not design a car without publicizing their name or company. And how do they publicize their company? Through another body of people (media). So there is the possibility that God created the world and inspired writers to write about Him. I hope you get what i am trying to say.

Exactly! We may be making some progress here. The local supreme being has done a piss poor job over the millennial of making his existence known to greater mankind. Sneaking around, forcing human beings to use their imaginations to create him and what he stands for does not meet the standard for wise supreme being IMO, unless he is a jokester. Why not make a public appearance and settle this "mysterious ways" nonsense once and for all.

BTW, do you believe God gives Earthly rewards to his devote followers who obey his rules? In other words, is he a hands on God or let-the-chips-fall-where-they-may kinda God? For example if you are devote, get cancer and prey to God, would you more likely be saved than a sinner? Just curious. I'll tell you in advance, I don't believe in a hands on God because there are just too many cases of bad things happening to good people. However if you view the big picture Earth+ Heaven, we can't really judge what happens to us here on Earth as we should be continuing the good times in the afterlife.

 

[StanJon]

Exactly! We may be making some progress here. The local supreme being has done a piss poor job over the millennial of making his existence known to greater mankind. Sneaking around, forcing human beings to use their imaginations to create him and what he stands for does not meet the standard for wise supreme being IMO, unless he is a jokester. Why not make a public appearance and settle this "mysterious ways" nonsense once and for all.

There will be a day for that Axis. And make sure you are prepared to face the consequences on that day. The Bible teaches us that God's ways is beyond the human mind so we should not try to comprehend His works. We are just mere, feeble mortals, how can we conceive the ways of someone who is omniscience and omnipotent.

BTW, do you believe God gives Earthly rewards to his devote followers who obey his rules? In other words, is he a hands on God or let-the-chips-fall-where-they-may kinda God? For example if you are devote, get cancer and prey to God, would you more likely be saved than a sinner? Just curious. I'll tell you in advance, I don't believe in a hands on God because there are just too many cases of bad things happening to good people. However if you view the big picture Earth+ Heaven, we can't really judge what happens to us here on Earth as we should be continuing the good times in the afterlife.

That is something i believe in Axis. I believe that there is some force in our life guiding us towards our goals, helping us through chronic illnesses, etc. Hence, that force is God. In Ecclesiastes 9:11 it says, “The race is not to the swift or the battle to the strong, nor does food come to the wise or wealth to the brilliant or favor to the learned; but time and chance will happen to them all.”

 

[Minor Axis]

There will be a day for that Axis. And make sure you are prepared to face the consequences on that day. The Bible teaches us that God's ways is beyond the human mind so we should not try to comprehend His works. We are just mere, feeble mortals, how can we conceive the ways of someone who is omniscience and omnipotent.

I wish you the best and I think you've made one heck of an assumption. Could there be consequences? Sure there could. But I believe if a wise, loving, and fair God exists, he is not going to hammer any intelligent human being for questioning the TOTAL lack of evidence of his existence as described in the Christian Bible. Try as you may to counter, it's just not evidence. If the Christian God is our father, he is an absent father, and bears the responsibility for this. I don't expect you to agree.

Now just think what if there is a God, but the writers of the Bible were superstitious ancient people who wrote their best description of human's place under God, but for lack of any real interaction with the divine, totally got it wrong? And the real God took offense because no one on Earth got it right? If he was fair, do you think he'd punish all of us for eternity? I don't think so, but I'm an optimist.

That is something i believe in Axis. I believe that there is some force in our life guiding us towards our goals, helping us through chronic illnesses, etc. Hence, that force is God. In Ecclesiastes 9:11 it says, “The race is not to the swift or the battle to the strong, nor does food come to the wise or wealth to the brilliant or favor to the learned; but time and chance will happen to them all.”

That's a comforting thought, without basis for reality I'm afraid. However it does have a positive effect. People achieve a lot when they think positive or think that there will be rewards in the end. And if anything having a strong religious faith regardless of the truth of it, they will be able to handle adversity better than someone without hope.