A question for all conservatives...

[Alien Allen]

At the higher levels, voting means nothing, except an interesting statistic. Local levels, yes, definitely get involved... unless you (general here) think that such needs to be changed.

We need TRUE election reform

To take the money out of elections

Public funding of elections is the key to that which I have noted numerous times.

Would not hurt if the Supreme Court ever could overturn the earlier interpretations of the Commerce Clause which has stripped the states of their rights.

If the states had the autonomy that was expected by the founders then you would have the freedom to move out of a state where they do the bullshit like in CA. And if enough moved out I gotta believe the state would make adjustments.

When the feds do that then the only option is to move out of the country.

 

[ssl]

I do appreciate the passion you guys have that we have the power to make change, but I still disagree.

AA - while I can't speak at all about your issue with regulators and your collective opposition, I CAN say that Immigration reform is at best, a stretch as an example. NOTHING Has been done about this hot button issue, and no one seems to be happy with the current state of Immigration in this country. How is that a case of people making change?

And I hold to my original point that we are not able to change the way our national leaders run our nation's business. Sure, we can band together and make things happen in our neighborhoods. We can take actions to make our community safer, or more liveable. But nationally, we cannot break the stronghold on the two-party political system and all of it's generations-old ties to big business, powerful lobbying groups and dirty money. There is NOTHING you or I can do to prevent Trillions of dollars being thrown into big busiiness bailouts with zero accountability, nor anything we can do to prevent all of teh big-money interests from shutting down every attempt to bring meaningful change to things like our health care and insurance monstrosities. I'd be interested to hear your suggestions on personal actions we can take to change how Washington does ANYTHING.

Boycott.

If NO_ONE bought their products or services, they would HAVE to change or go out of business.

If you refer to the "too big to fail" companies, look for small business alternatives.

There is always a choice. Sometimes... it is not an easy one. Sometimes... it is not easy to see it.

When those big companies with zero accountability see their revenue streams dry up... they will receive even more funds... but we will know. They will try to work it such that they are the victim... but we will know.

The political system. Yes, it is fucked. Has been since day one. Which is why I doubt the forefathers would have wanted this system in the first place... but they were not the ones pulling the strings.

When you take away the objects at the end of the strings... the strings are useless. Hence, my "take away the concept of value" and you're set to take on those with power.

Now, I don't mean go live a hippee lifestyle (nothing wrong with that)... If you think government should provide the basics... make your local politics ensure that your infrastructure and emergency services are met. Don't make them have to work even harder with less options. When those two items are handled and provided for, then AND ONLY THEN can you look towards reinstating other programs (such as well-fare.. which would be reformed in the process of ensuring the basics are in place)... but only if your community decides (by voting) that such is the case.

And don't just pull majority here. I mean, get EVERYONE on board. Make them see the reasons why you need such and such. If anyone still dissents... well, then you cannot in good faith say that "This program is wanted by all...", and don't institute said program, until everyone agrees.

This way, we have a true representative system... For We the People, By We the People.

 

[Tangerine]

Boycott.

If NO_ONE bought their products or services, they would HAVE to change or go out of business.

If you refer to the "too big to fail" companies, look for small business alternatives.

There is always a choice. Sometimes... it is not an easy one. Sometimes... it is not easy to see it.

When those big companies with zero accountability see their revenue streams dry up... they will receive even more funds... but we will know. They will try to work it such that they are the victim... but we will know.

The political system. Yes, it is fucked. Has been since day one. Which is why I doubt the forefathers would have wanted this system in the first place... but they were not the ones pulling the strings.

When you take away the objects at the end of the strings... the strings are useless. Hence, my "take away the concept of value" and you're set to take on those with power.

Now, I don't mean go live a hippee lifestyle (nothing wrong with that)... If you think government should provide the basics... make your local politics ensure that your infrastructure and emergency services are met. Don't make them have to work even harder with less options. When those two items are handled and provided for, then AND ONLY THEN can you look towards reinstating other programs (such as well-fare.. which would be reformed in the process of ensuring the basics are in place)... but only if your community decides (by voting) that such is the case.

And don't just pull majority here. I mean, get EVERYONE on board. Make them see the reasons why you need such and such. If anyone still dissents... well, then you cannot in good faith say that "This program is wanted by all...", and don't institute said program, until everyone agrees.

This way, we have a true representative system... For We the People, By We the People.

Beautiful.

But we've NEVER truly had a "by the people" system, and never will. A small number of extremely wealthy people have made all of the decisions for our country since day one.

And do you honestly think that the reason those bailout funds were handed over had to do with "public perception" of how important the companies were? Laughable. It had 100% to do with the financial ties to the political parties and nothing else.

 

[ssl]

Beautiful.

But we've NEVER truly had a "by the people" system, and never will. A small number of extremely wealthy people have made all of the decisions for our country since day one.

And do you honestly think that the reason those bailout funds were handed over had to do with "public perception" of how important the companies were? Laughable. It had 100% to do with the financial ties to the political parties and nothing else.

Hell no.

I knew 'too big to fail' was bullshit the minute I heard it.

 

[nova]

I disagree with the entire premise of the initial post, namely that the gov't has a place helping one group of citizens at the expense of another group of citizens, which is what "helping the working man" typically means. Gov't should not be picking winners and losers amongst the citizenry....

 

[BadBoy@TheWheel]

I disagree with the entire premise of the initial post, namely that the gov't has a place helping one group of citizens at the expense of another group of citizens, which is what "helping the working man" typically means. Gov't should not be picking winners and losers amongst the citizenry....

Well said, blunt and straight to the point. And I agree totally. But unfortunately we as a nation have gotten to the point where government has become a stop gap between the haves and have nots. In other words, whatever you are not willing to get on your own, you must be given.

I agree that we should help those who cannot help themselves, the powerless, the disabled, but I deny the right for anyone to be given that which they can obtain through ambition and some sense of personal pride. What's interesting is regardless of how you shake it out, if you punish industry, it is reflected in higher cost, so it affects the end user, if you put a heavy burden on the end user via more taxation, it stifles consumerism, which once again...affects the industry, and again affects the end user.

What we need is a government not influenced by either industry, or classes of people, but rather influenced by the knowledge that it must protect the rights of all its citizens equally, and do what's right for the collective, that will only begin when there is no longer incentive for DC to do anything other than the job they were elected to do. And we will only get those kinds of folks in office by letting go of stereotypes and realizing that WE need to impose term limitations by voting, they need to know they are on borrowed time if they don't do right by ALL OF US.

Or we could just sling mud, blame the ones before us and go nowhere, which is all I have seen since I was legally able to vote, rolling downhill like a snowball headed for hell

 

[Minor Axis]

I'd be interested to hear your suggestions on personal actions we can take to change how Washington does ANYTHING.

1) vote.

2) become pro-active politically.

3) pick up a gun and start the revolution.

Personally I don't see #3 as viable. Some might think it would fix the problems, but to what end? And in the end, there would still be humans in charge who may or may not believe what the role of government should be. In contrast to having a governent, anarchy is not an option.

And most people would consider #2 as too much work.

And a lot of people think #1 is too much work. Those who don't vote, have no right to whine about anything.

Well said, blunt and straight to the point. And I agree totally. But unfortunately we as a nation have gotten to the point where government has become a stop gap between the haves and have nots. In other words, whatever you are not willing to get on your own, you must be given.

Good simplistic sound bite that does not accurately paint the picture of how any system (with humans in charge) works. You don't have any money? Go get a good paying job! What, there are no good paying jobs? Go to college, get a degree, and then find the good paying job! What, there are 10,000 college graduates and only 100 jobs? Go start a company! What, the economy could not support every other person running their own company? Be a good worker bee, suck it up and stop complaining!

Although I do agree if you work your ass off, moving in the right direction, and are "normal", you should do better than your contemporaries. But for the majority, it's the economic system, its rules and regulations, and the amount of corruption, that determines how high you can rise.

 

[alice in chains]

You have a right to complain if you don't vote...why? Because it's not illegal. I don't want to choose from Bullshit A from Bullshit B. So I don't. Whether I vote or not...the elected official still has the power to regulate my life, so why can't I complain?

Hard work doesn't equal success...Why not? Because if you succeed and work hard, you're winning over other people (some of which do not work hard and others which do work very hard.) Ultimately, someone has to fail for another to succeed.

 

[BadBoy@TheWheel]

1) vote.

2) become pro-active politically.

3) pick up a gun and start the revolution.

Personally I don't see #3 as viable. Some might think it would fix the problems, but to what end? And in the end, there would still be humans in charge who may or may not believe what the role of government should be. In contrast to having a governent, anarchy is not an option.

And most people would consider #2 as too much work.

And a lot of people think #1 is too much work. Those who don't vote, have no right to whine about anything.



Good simplistic sound bite that does not accurately paint the picture of how any system (with humans in charge) works. You don't have any money? Go get a good paying job! What, there are no good paying jobs? Go to college, get a degree, and then find the good paying job! What, there are 10,000 college graduates and only 100 jobs? Go start a company! What, the economy could not support every other person running their own company? Be a good worker bee, suck it up and stop complaining!

Although I do agree if you work your ass off, moving in the right direction, and are "normal", you should do better than your contemporaries. But for the majority, it's the economic system, its rules and regulations, and the amount of corruption, that determines how high you can rise.

I have no...Repeat NO issues with helping out hard working tax paying citizens, the elderly, the Veterans and children, none at all. So don't paint me in the light of "well you're all just lazy" that's not who I am. My point is still been what it's been for ages in these debates. Clear the system of the dead weight, clear the system of people who could be helping rather than just taking, and make the system that does this more efficient. THEN we can determine what should be done next. Lets not just layer more incompetence that will in turn cost me another 4 or $5000 in insurance premiums on top of the $4000+ I already pay, to add heft to a system that has been bastardized by years of mis-management. Why should I continue to pay for political and govenrmental incompetence? The government has convinced all of us, that the ghuy with bigger toys is to blame. SO GET OUT THE TORCH AND PITCHFORKS :24:

 

[BadBoy@TheWheel]

You have a right to complain if you don't vote...why? Because it's not illegal. I don't want to choose from Bullshit A from Bullshit B. So I don't. Whether I vote or not...the elected official still has the power to regulate my life, so why can't I complain?

Hard work doesn't equal success...Why not? Because if you succeed and work hard, you're winning over other people (some of which do not work hard and others which do work very hard.) Ultimately, someone has to fail for another to succeed.

To say that is defeatist. Everyone can obtain success, it's all relevant to your definition. And if you don't it's not anyones fault but your own perception

 

[alice in chains]

Michael Bolton- Office Space

"There would be nobody to clean toilets if we all had a million dollars."

 

[BadBoy@TheWheel]

Michael Bolton- Office Space

"There would be nobody to clean toilets if we all had a million dollars."

That only works if your perception of success is having a million dollars. Oh and that movie was epic, but also applauding being a slacker.

 

[alice in chains]

So are you implying that all Americans have the realistic option of "Living the Dream" ...having a house, family, and enjoying the fruits of your labor? To me the beauty is the oppportunity to succeed or failing, not the gurantee of these dreams.

 

[BadBoy@TheWheel]

So are you implying that all Americans have the realistic option of "Living the Dream" ...having a house, family, and enjoying the fruits of your labor? To me the beauty is the oppportunity to succeed or failing, not the gurantee of these dreams.

To me, it's simple, and it's all a matter of what you value in life. If it's money, hey go after it, if it's family, hey go after that, if it's nothing heck that's easy. I think you are making what I am saying too complex. I value my kids, my family...THAT is what matters to me. In my minds eye I am a success because of them. Work is what I do, it's NOT who I am. You see?

 

[alice in chains]

Yes I see, I overthink, lol.

 

[BadBoy@TheWheel]

Yes I see, I overthink, lol.

We're from Texas we're not allowed to do that but once or twice a year :24:

 

[Accountable]

Good conversation, Alice & BB.

As for the right to complain: ALL have the right to complain, whether they deserve it or not, whether they voted or not. I proudly devoted 21 years of my life standing guard over that right.

 

[Alien Allen]

I am all for voting but you have some idiots out there that are too damn stupid to vote.

I wish I could find some of the audio of people interviewed in Detroit last week on WJR

Utterly amazing is all I can say

 

[Peter Parka]

So are you implying that all Americans have the realistic option of "Living the Dream" ...having a house, family, and enjoying the fruits of your labor? To me the beauty is the oppportunity to succeed or failing, not the gurantee of these dreams.

Yes, I'm sure you'd feel the same way if you had failed and were living on skid row.:sarcasm

 

[BadBoy@TheWheel]

Oh and something i read this morning had me somewhat shocked...USA claims that House Dems, represent some of the wealthiest constituancies in the nation. How well are they able to help "the little man' while they have their heads up millionaires asses? Just askin.