All Else Failed
Well-Known Member
Then they have eschewed their culture. There can be no "moderation" when it comes to the Koran. Either you follow it or you don't.
A Peaceful Religion?
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well i dont study the koran so cannot comment personally but i am sure that the moderate muslim friends i have would disagree
eveything is open to some interpretation surely, the Imams that preach in the mosques in my neighbourhood must have a different take on the koran than the more militant hate spewers that we read so much about
All Else Failed
Well-Known Member
Who ever said that? I didn't.
Also, yes, Islam sees the world as their home because Islam is by its very nature expansionist and any secular form of government is "sinful".
See, you get into the very heart of the matter. If you have an alien culture that does not have any interest in the native culture there will be resentment between the two groups. Also, there are massive difference between Muslim culture and native European culture since Islam is not just a religion but a political system as well. Islam has one major concern: spreading.
I can enumerate: Zero immigration into Europe.
When you say "moderate" what are you specifically referring to? Because in the end Allah is correct and anyone else is wrong in their eyes. Unless they're like a typical Christian and they only follow the parts of the Koran that fits their emotions at the time.
Also, watch what Europe will look like in say, 80-100 years. More minarets will be built, Europeans will continue not to have babies, Muslims will continue having babies and 3rd world immigrants will continue to flood the nations. Europe is dead.
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Minor Axis
Well-Known Member
mazHur,
So what do you think of the Sam Harris clip at the beginning of this thread- Are the individuals he's making an example of extreme Muslims and if so is he being unfair to them?
I think these are appropriate additional questions asked to no one in particular:
1) Are the people Harris singled out living in the spirit of Islam or have they distorted their religion's intentions and code of conduct?
2) Did the individuals who flew airliners into NYC sky scrapers and cause the crash of one in Pennsylvania have a legitimate reason to do so? If so what reason?
3) Have they been welcomed to Heaven for a job well done or do you think they are being looked down upon by the creator? In essence does God approve of such tactics in his name?
4) Does God approve of strapping on an explosive device and blowing up a market full of civilians, women, and children, in essence the locals?
My Answers:
1. If I can believe in a peaceful Islam, then I would say the intentions have been distorted.
2. No legitimate reason unless the goal is to start a global religious war, then good try.
3. If there is an involved creator I hope it would be frowning upon them. No.
4. No, for these individuals who think they are off to glory, he should have the devil stick a pitchfork somewhere where it hurts real bad.
So what do you think of the Sam Harris clip at the beginning of this thread- Are the individuals he's making an example of extreme Muslims and if so is he being unfair to them?
I think these are appropriate additional questions asked to no one in particular:
1) Are the people Harris singled out living in the spirit of Islam or have they distorted their religion's intentions and code of conduct?
2) Did the individuals who flew airliners into NYC sky scrapers and cause the crash of one in Pennsylvania have a legitimate reason to do so? If so what reason?
3) Have they been welcomed to Heaven for a job well done or do you think they are being looked down upon by the creator? In essence does God approve of such tactics in his name?
4) Does God approve of strapping on an explosive device and blowing up a market full of civilians, women, and children, in essence the locals?
My Answers:
1. If I can believe in a peaceful Islam, then I would say the intentions have been distorted.
2. No legitimate reason unless the goal is to start a global religious war, then good try.
3. If there is an involved creator I hope it would be frowning upon them. No.
4. No, for these individuals who think they are off to glory, he should have the devil stick a pitchfork somewhere where it hurts real bad.
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All Else Failed
Well-Known Member
Well thats nice, but almost every single major invention that is worth anything has come from Europeans.Spain proves to take a more sensible and positive view of the minorities as compared to the US or other western countries and I appreciate it.
Although the Muslims ruled over Spain for more than 800 years they don't claim proprietorship to it....If someone has read the Spanish history they will realize how tolerant Muslims were to Jews and Christians. Infact most of their governors were Jews because the Muslims did not have enough men to appoint to that post!! Muslim rule over Spain was also the beginning of scientific, technological and literary advancement because at that time Europe was plunged into Dark Ages!!
Early European knowledge came from the Moors tho, they were far ahead of most European cultures. They had a massive influence over scientific and technical understanding at the time.
All Else Failed
Well-Known Member
Where knowledge comes from does not matter. What the people do with it matters. In Europe's case, they became various super powers that expanded and surpassed the knowledge that they may have gotten from Muslims. Even then, very little knowledge was actually passed from Muslims to Europeans.
Ancient Rome and Greece, both European, surpassed Muslim technology and knowledge and they were thousands of years before any of the major Muslims powers rose.
In the end, again, I still say diversity is genocide. Diversity en amsse of any sort - religious, ethical, moral, language, customs- will ultimately divide people and create unhealthy difference. It will force the members of the groups to either assimilate to the majority (destroy their own culture) or ultimately define themselves as not part of the native majority, which will create resentment if the minority group grows.
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well the people i know are not anti semitic, they allow choice from their wives and daughters on wearing the hijab, they denounce all forms of violence, they support the local rule of law/constitution over the teachings of the koran they guide their lives based on their interpretation of the koran, they are pro human rights and value democracy, in a sense on the outside they are just the same as many people in Canada
All Else Failed
Well-Known Member
So they don't really practice Islam any more than a typical western Christian practices Christianity. Got it.
It is simple. The "word of Allah" tells you what to do. If you are a devout Muslim, you do it. Even with different sects of Islam the word is still the "truth". People saying "Oh, well this is MY interpetation of the word..." are probably just making up excuses so they don't seem too set in their ways when they are living in a liberal democracy. Just like modern Christians.
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Not true. The Moors had a huge influence, even educating English scholars.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F60D15F639541B728DDDA90994D1405B848CF1D3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age
I'll find some better sources and post them.
And that's not going into the lovely influence they've had over Iberian culture.
Minor Axis
Well-Known Member
This sounds good to me. I don't know, but I assume the Quran is not about pushing a pluralistic live-and let-live society.
I seem to remember a show on History Channel talking about all the technological innovations in the Middle East back around the 10th century or so. Now I don't think Italy is considered part of Europe, (or is it?) but at some point they were on the leading edge of technology.
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All Else Failed
Well-Known Member
I've actually seen those articles before. However, it has no sway on what I have already said. Europeans retook their own land from the invaders, reestablished European rules and expanded their technologies to surpass anyone else on the planet.
It isn't. Secular forms of government are "not of Allah". They are sinful. It is absurd to say that any devout Muslim would support a sinful form of government.This sounds good to me. I don't know, but I assume the Quran is not about pushing a pluralistic live-and let-live society.
If anyone is interested, especially if you live in the UK or in Europe, here is a nice little survey on attitudes of Islamic youth on university campuses. it is an eye opener:
http://www.socialcohesion.co.uk/files/1231525079_1.pdf
Pages 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 53, 60 are interesting.
SUMMARY:
How supportive if at all would you be of the introduction
of a worldwide Caliphate based on Sharia Law?
33% very supportive
How supportive if at all would you be of the introduction of a worldwide Caliphate based on Sharia Law? A comparison of active ISOC members and non-members
58% very supportive
Killing for the Faith
Respondents were asked if it is ever justifiable to kill in the name of religion. Just under a third of Muslim students polled (32%) said killing in the name of religion was justified – the vast majority of these (28% of all respondents) said killing could be justified if the religion was under attack and 4% of respondents supported killing in order to promote and preserve that religion. A further one in six (15%) Muslim students polled were unsure leaving just over half (53%) who believe killing in the name of religion was never justifiable. By contrast, 2% of non-Muslims polled felt killing in the name of religion was justified and a further 4% were unsure. An overwhelming majority – 94% – said killing in the name of religion was never justifiable.
Activity in an ISOC affected results. Three fifths (60%) of active ISOC members polled said they believed it acceptable to kill in the name of religion – one in ten (11%) felt it acceptable to kill in order to promote and preserve that religion and nearly half (49%) said it was acceptable only if that religion was under attack. By contrast, 63% of non-ISOC members said it was never acceptable. Unusually the percentages of active ISOC members and non-members who said they were unsure were roughly equal (10% and 12% respectively), suggesting that on this issue – unlike questions regarding Sharia – non-ISOC members are more likely to form clear opinions.
The majority (60%) of active ISOC members believe that it is justifiable to kill in the name of religion as compared to only 2% of non-Muslim students who feel the same. 94% of non-Muslim students said it is never justifiable to kill in the name of religion whilst less than a third (30%) of active ISOC members agreed.
Age was a factor in opinion-forming: younger (age 18-34) respondents were twice as likely (33%) as older (age 35-54) (16%) to support killing in the name of religion. No older (age 35-54) respondents supported killing in order to preserve and promote that religion whilst 70% said it was never justifiable.
Male Muslim students polled were more likely (35%) than females (28%) to support killing in the name of religion. Females were similarly much more likely (59%) than males (46%) to say that killing in the name of religion was never justifiable and less likely to be unsure.
Overall, findings indicate that younger (age 18-34) male active ISOC members are more likely than other Muslim students to support killing in the name of religion, while support is much lower among non-ISOC members, females and older (age 35-54) students.
Active ISOC members tended more than other respondents towards a strict view of apostasy and what should happen to a person who decides to leave Islam. One in six (16%) active ISOC members advocated punishing apostates in accordance with Sharia, and a further three fifths (61%) said that apostates should be encouraged to reconsider their decision. By contrast, two fifths (41% ) of non-ISOC members said that apostates should be left alone.
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All knowledge is built upon what came before it. That's how things progress. The Moors are an important part of that progression.
Yes Italy is Europe. Most countries at some point lead the way in one fashion or another. It just peaked when the English got their act together.
All Else Failed
Well-Known Member
It is a MASSIVE mistake to think that the middle ages were a "dark period" where nothing happened.
Minor Axis
Well-Known Member
Thanks for straightening me out . They are part of the Euro- club now that I think about it.
Does anyone think that the video clip in the lead off post is unfair? I don't believe Harris is trying to indite the Muslim world, but he does have an issue with the violent faction within the religion.
All Else Failed
Well-Known Member
Northern Italy does not think highly of the southern portion of the "boot". A lot want to make their own country.
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