A Peaceful Religion?

[edgray]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLiku08FlRg

Interesting speech.

 

[All Else Failed]

Ok, so ban it in the public arena.

 

[edgray]

Ok, so ban it in the public arena.

you can't ban a religion, people should be free to follow whatever religion they choose.

 

[Minor Axis]

Ed, outstanding video. I wanted to hear more. Went to You Tube, logged it in my playlist and will go back later to listen to other Sam Harris clips.

Regarding Islam, I'm not an expert on it. I've heard on many occasions that the basis of Islam is peaceful. Unfortunately the news is dominated not by the acts of peaceful Muslims but the acts of fanatical Muslims who believe it is their way or the highway. Or in a more specific way- if you say something bad about my religion I have God's blessing to kill you. Or Muslims who view the followers of other religions as infidels or heretics that should be treated like criminals. At least that is my impression.

If you look into the Old Testament of the Bible, by today's standards it can be harsh, but I believe most modern Christians don't live by the Old Testament standard. Probably the same thing can be said about the Quran. What ever it says, it's the people following it that pick and choose what they want to believe. I do believe it is possible to be a live-and-let-live Muslim. But I also believe that in the Middle East, in the countries ruled by Islamic law, those types of Muslims are few and far between. Who determines the standard? The people practicing the religion.

 

[edgray]

Ed, outstanding video. I wanted to hear more. Went to You Tube, logged it in my playlist and will go back later to listen to other Sam Harris clips.

Regarding Islam, I'm not an expert on it. I've heard on many occasions that the basis of Islam is peaceful. Unfortunately the news is dominated not by the acts of peaceful Muslims but the acts of fanatical Muslims who believe it is their way or the highway. Or in a more specific way- if you say something bad about my religion I have God's blessing to kill you. Or Muslims who view the followers of other religions as infidels or heretics that should be treated like criminals. At least that is my impression.

If you look into the Old Testament of the Bible, by today's standards it can be harsh, but I believe most modern Christians don't live by the Old Testament standard. Probably the same thing can be said about the Quran. What ever it says, it's the people following it that pick and choose what they want to believe. I do believe it is possible to be a live-and-let-live Muslim. But I also believe that in the Middle East, in the countries ruled by Islamic law, those types of Muslims are few and far between. Who determines the standard? The people practicing the religion.

I'm no expert either. I read the Qu'ran at the request of a friend in my teens, and, like the Bible, was appalled at the bloodshed in it.

Islam, in moderation, like Christianity (ie, Church of England 1950s onwards), can be peaceful and loving. But take both religions to their logical extremes and you get hate-filled, bigoted, violent, sexist and intellectually backward philosophies. Islamic fundamentalists and the Religious Right in the US are prime examples, not to mention the bloody history in Europe going back to the crusades and so forth.

It is true, Islamic Fundamentalism is in the far minority, the same as the extreme Christians. Those wishing to impose Islamic States have had to resort to terrorist means because they do not have public support for their beliefs. An Islamic State would not be democratic in any way.

 

[All Else Failed]

you can't ban a religion, people should be free to follow whatever religion they choose.

well if you think it is violent, imperialistic, abusive towards women and expansionist why would you want it in your country?


Oh


thats right



"tolerance"

 

[Zorak]

well if you think it is violent, imperialistic, abusive towards women and expansionist why would you want it in your country?


Oh


thats right



"tolerance"

You don't tolerate those things though, it's not that hard to get.

There are laws against violent misogyny and the other practices you described, and one of the beautiful things about equality is that nobody is free of them.

 

[All Else Failed]

You don't tolerate those things though, it's not that hard to get.

There are laws against violent misogyny and the other practices you described, and one of the beautiful things about equality is that nobody is free of them.

No, see, you do tolerate them

It comes down to two options for Muslims:

Assimilation: Forget your culture, your rituals, customs, language, heritage, history, and values. Slowly become one of the people that really have no culture besides what they can get from the TV and mass media. Leave behind what made your ancestors different and great in order to become assimilated and you will naturally have less problems with the native population.

Preservation: Maintain your culture, your rituals, customs, language, heritage, history, and values. However, with this comes the fact that you will be an outsider. You will really have no connection with the native population since you're busy keeping your way of life alive. Especially if the native culture has much different ways of doing things from yourself.


These two paths to choose from aren't good. Your choices is to either leave who you are behind and join someone else (cultural genocide) or maintain who you are and be relegated to minority status since no one really has anything in common with you culturally.. Diversity is ultimately genocide because we urge them to assimilate or we "tolerate them" so they can remain who they are, but now they will be so different from us that they stick out like a red penguin. The problem is not Muslims, the problem is diversity. When you replace a native population's values, culture and customs because you are "diverse", then you're also committing cultural genocide on the native population to look "tolerant". It is a double edged sword that wounds both parties.

 

[edgray]

well if you think it is violent, imperialistic, abusive towards women and expansionist why would you want it in your country?

Oh

thats right

"tolerance"

In Spain where I live muslims are not only very tolerated, they are an integral part of this region's history. In my barrio we have a mosque and a few halal shops and other muslim friendly places. They are peaceful, friendly and generally nice. The mosque is so small compared to the massive church beside it, at prayer time they have to lay rugs out on the street outside for the overspill to pray on. It's actually quite cute and there's a very tranquil air around it.

As long as that's the case I have no problem at all. Muslims here aren't extremists, not even close, the women do not walk behind the men and they can leave their house without accompaniment. The far majority of muslims in the world are not extreme, and these people should be welcomed more, so as to stop them moving to toward the extreme ends of the religion.

The case here is not to ban nor suppress, but to encourage a more civilised interpretation of the religion, moderated by egalitarian civil law.

 

[Alien Allen]

you really think most Mulsims are not extreme?

depends upon the definition of extreme I suppose

Just disrespect Muhammad and see how tolerant they are.

Tolerance requires give and take on both sides. I don't see that from Muslims for the most part

 

[Alien Allen]

that was an interesting clip

Is he on the hit list yet??

 

[edgray]

you really think most Mulsims are not extreme?

depends upon the definition of extreme I suppose

Just disrespect Muhammad and see how tolerant they are.

Tolerance requires give and take on both sides. I don't see that from Muslims for the most part

My definition of extreme would be taking the Qu'ran as 100% truth and adhering to it, and wanting to make others do the same, in the same sense taking the Bible that way would make an extreme Christian.

As I said, where I live, both muslims and catholics are not only tolerant of each, but they seem incredibly integrated.

Honestly, in this region of Spain it's a joy to see. You are correct, it does take both sides to be tolerant, but in light of how most people feel about muslims, it's no wonder we're pushing more of them to the extreme.

 

[Zorak]

No, see, you do tolerate them

It comes down to two options for Muslims:

Assimilation: Forget your culture, your rituals, customs, language, heritage, history, and values. Slowly become one of the people that really have no culture besides what they can get from the TV and mass media. Leave behind what made your ancestors different and great in order to become assimilated and you will naturally have less problems with the native population.

Preservation: Maintain your culture, your rituals, customs, language, heritage, history, and values. However, with this comes the fact that you will be an outsider. You will really have no connection with the native population since you're busy keeping your way of life alive. Especially if the native culture has much different ways of doing things from yourself.


These two paths to choose from aren't good. Your choices is to either leave who you are behind and join someone else (cultural genocide) or maintain who you are and be relegated to minority status since no one really has anything in common with you culturally.. Diversity is ultimately genocide because we urge them to assimilate or we "tolerate them" so they can remain who they are, but now they will be so different from us that they stick out like a red penguin. The problem is not Muslims, the problem is diversity. When you replace a native population's values, culture and customs because you are "diverse", then you're also committing cultural genocide on the native population to look "tolerant". It is a double edged sword that wounds both parties.

This is where you and I differ.
I don't look at muslims and think its a war between us and them... There is no them in my world, just us.

Guess what? I still eat fish and chips and drink warm beer. Some muslims do as well, and some don't. Fair play to whatever they want to do, as long as they don't infringe upon anyone elses liberty.

 

[porterjack]

No, see, you do tolerate them

It comes down to two options for Muslims:

Assimilation: Forget your culture, your rituals, customs, language, heritage, history, and values. Slowly become one of the people that really have no culture besides what they can get from the TV and mass media. Leave behind what made your ancestors different and great in order to become assimilated and you will naturally have less problems with the native population.

Preservation: Maintain your culture, your rituals, customs, language, heritage, history, and values. However, with this comes the fact that you will be an outsider. You will really have no connection with the native population since you're busy keeping your way of life alive. Especially if the native culture has much different ways of doing things from yourself.


These two paths to choose from aren't good. Your choices is to either leave who you are behind and join someone else (cultural genocide) or maintain who you are and be relegated to minority status since no one really has anything in common with you culturally.. Diversity is ultimately genocide because we urge them to assimilate or we "tolerate them" so they can remain who they are, but now they will be so different from us that they stick out like a red penguin. The problem is not Muslims, the problem is diversity. When you replace a native population's values, culture and customs because you are "diverse", then you're also committing cultural genocide on the native population to look "tolerant". It is a double edged sword that wounds both parties.

there is a middle ground, in Canada we have millions of moderate muslims living peacefully, next to other faiths, they do not impose strict Sharia law, they do not insist on the wearing of the hijab, in fact they are so damned peaceful and have integrated so nicely into our society that they never make the news, the media never reports on these people

 

[mazHur]

No, see, you do tolerate them

It comes down to two options for Muslims:

Assimilation: Forget your culture, your rituals, customs, language, heritage, history, and values. Slowly become one of the people that really have no culture besides what they can get from the TV and mass media. Leave behind what made your ancestors different and great in order to become assimilated and you will naturally have less problems with the native population.

Preservation: Maintain your culture, your rituals, customs, language, heritage, history, and values. However, with this comes the fact that you will be an outsider. You will really have no connection with the native population since you're busy keeping your way of life alive. Especially if the native culture has much different ways of doing things from yourself.


These two paths to choose from aren't good. Your choices is to either leave who you are behind and join someone else (cultural genocide) or maintain who you are and be relegated to minority status since no one really has anything in common with you culturally.. Diversity is ultimately genocide because we urge them to assimilate or we "tolerate them" so they can remain who they are, but now they will be so different from us that they stick out like a red penguin. The problem is not Muslims, the problem is diversity. When you replace a native population's values, culture and customs because you are "diverse", then you're also committing cultural genocide on the native population to look "tolerant". It is a double edged sword that wounds both parties.

Your comments show absolute ignorance of Muslims and their religion. For your guidance Muslims believe they are a Universal Nation and the whole world is their home! You should never, never,expect a Muslim to give up his religion or culture as far as it is guided(or misguided) by the Quran!! Moreover, It is over-simplification to assert that ALL Muslims are terrorists or Islam is not a religion of Peace. That's not true.
The British ruled over India for about 150 years but they never interfered in religious matters of the natives...mostly Hindus and Muslims (mostly converts from Hinduism)...the British really understood the sentiments of these people as far as their religion was concerned so they avoided to interfere and continue their rule...and prolong it as long as possible until national sentiment grew against them and they had to be kicked out. This obviously gives a message to others that they should keep to themselves without
fiddling with the religion of others or trying to suppress its adherents in any way, especially through force.
What is happening is all due to interference by one party in the affairs of the other party and as I said Muslims have a Universal Brotherhood (this is the spirit of Islam) the more you try to crush them they will get stronger!!

Apart from religious beliefs, the Muslim have nothing uncommon with the natives....However, Islam is strictly against open sex or mixing up of genders. This should be a problem because Muslims respect this 'custom and culture' of natives and infact enjoy the sexy scenes. Secondly, no Muslim will ever eat pig even if you forced him to do that!! he will revolt! Then a Muslim is allowed to take 4 wives instead of committing debauchery or getting involved in illicit sex...the native may have objection to that but Muslim don't mind it at all. they want you to carry on with your 'culture'' but at the same time want you not to object to theirs.

Could you enumerate the cultural values you want Muslims to stick to? excluding ,of ,sexual aberration/freedom that natives enjoy among themselves as that would be beyond acceptance by Muslims!

 

[mazHur]

there is a middle ground, in Canada we have millions of moderate muslims living peacefully, next to other faiths, they do not impose strict Sharia law, they do not insist on the wearing of the hijab, in fact they are so damned peaceful and have integrated so nicely into our society that they never make the news, the media never reports on these people

that's heartening to hear about!!

 

[mazHur]

In Spain where I live muslims are not only very tolerated, they are an integral part of this region's history. In my barrio we have a mosque and a few halal shops and other muslim friendly places. They are peaceful, friendly and generally nice. The mosque is so small compared to the massive church beside it, at prayer time they have to lay rugs out on the street outside for the overspill to pray on. It's actually quite cute and there's a very tranquil air around it.

As long as that's the case I have no problem at all. Muslims here aren't extremists, not even close, the women do not walk behind the men and they can leave their house without accompaniment. The far majority of muslims in the world are not extreme, and these people should be welcomed more, so as to stop them moving to toward the extreme ends of the religion.

The case here is not to ban nor suppress, but to encourage a more civilised interpretation of the religion, moderated by egalitarian civil law.

Spain proves to take a more sensible and positive view of the minorities as compared to the US or other western countries and I appreciate it.

Although the Muslims ruled over Spain for more than 800 years they don't claim proprietorship to it....If someone has read the Spanish history they will realize how tolerant Muslims were to Jews and Christians. Infact most of their governors were Jews because the Muslims did not have enough men to appoint to that post!! Muslim rule over Spain was also the beginning of scientific, technological and literary advancement because at that time Europe was plunged into Dark Ages!!

 

[mazHur]

This is where you and I differ.
I don't look at muslims and think its a war between us and them... There is no them in my world, just us.

Guess what? I still eat fish and chips and drink warm beer. Some muslims do as well, and some don't. Fair play to whatever they want to do, as long as they don't infringe upon anyone elses liberty.

I agree to this positive thinking :24: :clap:

 

[mazHur]

You don't tolerate those things though, it's not that hard to get.

There are laws against violent misogyny and the other practices you described, and one of the beautiful things about equality is that nobody is free of them.

YOu are right..........

minorities are governed by the same laws as the natives, so what is the fuss some folks here are
making about?? If any Muslim doesn't comply with your laws send him to gitmo, rahter than malign a humongous universal community!!

 

[edgray]

Spain proves to take a more sensible and positive view of the minorities as compared to the US or other western countries and I appreciate it.

Although the Muslims ruled over Spain for more than 800 years they don't claim proprietorship to it....If someone has read the Spanish history they will realize how tolerant Muslims were to Jews and Christians. Infact most of their governors were Jews because the Muslims did not have enough men to appoint to that post!! Muslim rule over Spain was also the beginning of scientific, technological and literary advancement because at that time Europe was plunged into Dark Ages!!

Very much so. I've read some fascinating things about the period, and visited some of the buildings. Truly spectacular.