Trayvon Martin- Tragedy

[hart]

I don't know the moods of so many different groups, there is bound to be some bad things happen from this, I just don't know if it will be to Zimmerman..........

 

[Johnfromokc]

For the record, if the FBI has gotten involved it's going to be a while before he's charged w/ anything. You have to look at it as law enforcement making sure they have all their ducks in a row to make sure that the case doesn't get thrown out on a technicality.

The FBI is also investigating the incompetence of the Sanford police. The chief has already stepped down, and more heads will roll over this. It appears one cop attempted to change the testimony of a witness. They sent the narcotics team out to investigate instead of homicide. Epic incompetence occurred here - That's why the feds are involved.

I haven't watched any of the videos, but I did read the story. Not having been there, I can't begin to speculate on what the suspect's state of mind was...but at the very least, he has made the worst mistake of his life. I don't think they're going to be able to find a jury that will convict him, though.

This Zimmerman character is a complete asshat. He was a habitual cop caller. He called 911 46 times since Jan. 1, 2011 to report disturbances, break-ins, windows left open and other incidents. Nine of those times, he "saw someone or something suspicious".

The 911 operator told Zimmerman NOT TO FOLLOW that kid. I've heard several 911 transcripts, and these alone should justify arrest and prosecution of this idiot.

This issue is HUGE. It will not be swept under the rug.

 

[CityGirl]

I hope when all the evidence is gathered that the guy was not stalking the teenager.

I think this type thing is an indictment of society. When I was a kid I knew all our neighbors for a block or more in every direction. Now I could not identify most of my neighbors in a line-up. I certainly do not know most of their names or their kid's names.

If this young man lived in this "Gated Community", the neighborhood watch members should have known him.

He didn't live in the community. He was visiting his father. I guess if you live in a gated community, you should register your guests.

 

[Natasha]

This issue is HUGE. It will not be swept under the rug.

Reread my post. I never once said it was going to be swept under the rug. The burden of proof is going to rest on the prosecutors...and if they can't prove that this guy went out w/ the intent to take this kid's life, they're not going to get a murder conviction.

 

[Joe the meek]

Lack of faith in the jury system. Humans are flawed...therefore a jury trial is intrinsically flawed. In a group of 12 people, you'll have at least 1 that thinks this guy was in the right. I also think (unless I just haven't read enough about this story) that they're going to have trouble proving malice aforethought on the suspect's part. They might get lucky and get a manslaughter conviction on him (still doubtful, IMO) but there's no way they'll get a conviction on murder based on the facts that have been presented so far. Mark my words.

They may not get a conviction on murder, but the government WILL get a conviction violating the deceased civil liberties. Mark my words.

What has me really PO'ed is that the defense will probably use some of Florida's lax gun protection laws to claim the dirtbag was protecting himself, even though HE (the dirtbag) was the one who started the chain of events that lead to this tragedy. This piece of crap is a prime example why some people should NOT be allowed to carry a firearm.

 

[AUFred]

He didn't live in the community. He was visiting his father. I guess if you live in a gated community, you should register your guests.

That's the first explanation I have heard about the young man. I hope the truth wins out on this case. If Zimmerman is a fruitcake I hope it is proven.

 

[alice in chains]

Is everybody in the world fucking blind or just happily ignorant on cross examination?

We have no idea what really happened and everyone is automatically blaming this dude for shooting the kid. Does anyone here really know what happened? Everyone just knows what they want to believe instead of giving both parties a fair take on the matter.

It's almost as fucking ridiculous as watching The Maury Show.

 

[CityGirl]

Is everybody in the world fucking blind or just happily ignorant on cross examination?

We have no idea what really happened and everyone is automatically blaming this dude for shooting the kid. Does anyone here really know what happened? Everyone just knows what they want to believe instead of giving both parties a fair take on the matter.

It's almost as fucking ridiculous as watching The Maury Show.

I'm sure that preceding the worldwide attention this case has received folks were thinking

Is everybody in the world fucking blind or just happily ignorant on cross examination?

We have no idea what really happened and everyone is automatically assuming this dude is innocent and acted in self defense. Does anyone here really know what happened? Everyone just knows what they want to believe instead of giving both parties a fair take on the matter.

It's almost as fucking ridiculous as watching The Maury Show.

 

[Joe the meek]

Is everybody in the world fucking blind or just happily ignorant on cross examination?

We have no idea what really happened and everyone is automatically blaming this dude for shooting the kid. Does anyone here really know what happened? Everyone just knows what they want to believe instead of giving both parties a fair take on the matter.

It's almost as fucking ridiculous as watching The Maury Show.

Any civilian who carries a sidearm and goes after a person who is NOT immediately threatening them is a FUCKING idiot cop wanna be. The man with the gun initiated the chain of events which lead to this tragedy.

Listen, I don't care if the teen was beating the living shit out the cop wanna be. THAT IS WHY WHEN YOU CARRY A SIDEARM AND ARE NOT A LEO, YOU DO NOT ADVANCE ON SOMEONE WHO YOU MIGHT THINK IS A THREAT!

Do you think you can understand that?

 

[Jaybird]

Has anyone here actually looked at the actual facts of the case? Or really listened to the 911 call?

While I dont defend Zimmermans actions, this has taken a life of its own in the national media, and has been twisted quite roundly.

fact 1. There was an actual eye witness that placed Martin on top of Zimmerman. Not an EAR witness that hid in her home and didnt even look out the window and came forward to get her 15 minutes of fame.

The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John.

John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot.

"And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point."

Read more: http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/new...led-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1ptOziJcT

Video of the actual eye witness found here http://www.weerdworld.com/2012/george-zimmerman-arrest-report/

Fact 2.

Zimmerman only got out of the car and 'gave chase' when Zimmerman said...."He is running" and the non emergency operator asked "WHich Way?" IE, Zimmerman very well may have only gotten out of his car to 'pursue' to answer the non emergency operators question and find out which way he was running. Listen to the 911 call. You can clearly hear the car door bells chime right after the operator asks this question.

Fact 3.

Zimmerman says 'okay' when told that he does not need to follow. But by this time, over 20 seconds have passed and he could very well be behind the townhomes where this occurred.

Fact 4.

Zimmerman sounded just as scared at the end of the 911 call(the call we actually have been able to hear, not a call relayed through Martins lawyers from his GF) when he tells the operator to have the police call him to find out where he is at.


Fact 6.

The ONLY real actual record of who instigated the actual confrontation is Zimmermans account. Should the police 'fabricate' evidence to dispute this claim?

Fact 7.

If Martin, who was over 6' tall and athletic confronted Zimmerman who was 5'9 and from what it sounds like...over weight....it wouldnt take much for Zimmerman to be on the ground, with Martin on top of him.

Fact 8.

Zimmerman's back of his shirt had grass stains and was wet. He had a bloody nose and a scrape to the back of his head. He was crying out for help....not Martin(see fact 1 from eye witness testimony) and no one was helping him. He was on the ground getting beaten up. He could not 'retreat' so the Stand your ground law isnt even applicable. IE, he could not flee with someone on top of him, and was in fear for his life, and acted.

Fact 9.

Why would Martin Confront Zimmerman? Because he was pissed off at being followed. I would be too if the roles were reversed, but if I confronted someone following me with more than 'fuck off' and made it physical, I(the one swinging first) would be at fault.



You all have totally bought into the media's distorted story that they are reporting on the national level. And now that the media has a nice juicy story that they have created, they continue to throw fuel onto the fire that is brewing in Sanford.

Was Zimmerman justifiable in claiming self defense? Under FL law(even before Stand Your Ground) he could very well have claimed self defense. But only a judge or jury can ultimately decide that. Not a mob of people protesting on a lawn. Not a witch hunt. Not the media, nor celebrities tweeting their opinions. All of them are creating a scenario that could turn uglier than it already was if Zimmerman actually does get a fair trial and is not convicted based on the above facts.

I ask you all to dispute any of the facts presented in this post if you can. I doubt you can though. This has been a story down my way far longer than it has been on the national level, and I have been researching it for quite sometime now.

While I feel for all the parties involved, one really should try to get the facts straight before jumping to conclusions.

 

[Jaybird]

Here is a copy of an open letter to the community. It seems pretty straight forward to me, but may answer more questions people have.

Fellow citizens:

There has been a lot of media attention to the recent incident where George Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon Martin. This is indeed a tragic situation and has caused a flood of questions and strong emotions from within our community, the region and nation. On behalf of the employees of the city of Sanford, our deepest sympathy and prayers go out to the family and friends of Trayvon Martin. As a father, I can only image the pain Trayvon’s family must be going though. In an effort to continue to be as responsive as possible to the public seeking information on the incident, I have asked Chief Lee to provide answers to some of the most frequently asked questions regarding this matter. Below are his responses. Please understand that since this is still an ongoing investigation, the Police Department is limited in what information it can publicly release.

The city of Sanford is committed to (ensuring) that justice is served and, therefore, the city of Sanford has contacted the United States Attorney General’s Office for assistance in this matter.

The men and women of the Sanford Police Department extend our heartfelt sympathies to the Martin family. This is indeed a tragic situation. The death of anyone due to violence, especially a 17-year-old young man, is morally appalling. As this incident has generated a lot of media attention, we wanted to provide answers to some of the most frequently asked questions.

Why was George Zimmerman not arrested the night of the shooting?

When the Sanford Police Department arrived at the scene of the incident, Mr. Zimmerman provided a statement claiming he acted in self-defense which at the time was supported by physical evidence and testimony. By Florida statute, law enforcement was PROHIBITED from making an arrest based on the facts and circumstances they had at the time. Additionally, when any police officer makes an arrest for any reason, the officer MUST swear and affirm that he/she is making the arrest in good faith and with probable cause. If the arrest is done maliciously and in bad faith, the officer and the city may be held liable.


According to Florida Statute 776.032:

776:032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of
force. –
(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.

Why the 911 tapes are not yet released?

There are exemptions to the public records laws for active criminal intelligence and for ongoing investigations. In this instance, the 911 calls made by neighbors in the subdivision, and the nonemergency call made by Mr. Zimmerman are all key to the investigation by Sanford Police Department. In consultation with the Office of the State Attorney, the Sanford police department has decided not to release the audio recordings of the 911 calls due to the ongoing investigation.

Many times, specific information is contained in those recordings which is vital to the integrity of the investigation. Should it be revealed, the information may compromise the integrity of the investigation prior to its completion.

Why did Mr. Zimmerman have a firearm in his possession while acting in the role of a neighborhood watch member?

Mr. Zimmerman holds a concealed weapon permit issued from the State of Florida. He is authorized to carry the weapon in a concealed manner wherever Florida Statute dictates. Neighborhood Watch programs are designed for members of a neighborhood to be “eyes and ears” for police and to watch out for their neighbors. They are not members of the Police Department nor are they vigilantes. Training provided by law enforcement agencies to Neighborhood Watch organizations stresses non-contact surveillance of suspicious situations and notifying police of those situations so that law enforcement can respond and take control of the situation.

Mr. Zimmerman was not acting outside the legal boundaries of Florida Statute by carrying his weapon when this incident occurred. He was in fact on a personal errand in his vehicle when he observed Mr. Martin in the community and called the Sanford Police Department.

If Zimmerman was told not to continue to follow Trayvon, can that be considered in this investigation?

Yes, it will; however, the telecommunications call taker asked Zimmerman, “Are you following him.” Zimmerman replied, “Yes." The call taker stated “you don’t need to do that.” The call taker’s suggestion is not a lawful order that Mr. Zimmerman would be required to follow.

Zimmerman’s statement was that he had lost sight of Trayvon and was returning to his truck to meet the police officer when he says he was attacked by Trayvon.

Why was George Zimmerman labeled as “squeaky clean” when in fact he has a prior arrest history?

In one of the initial meetings with the father of the victim the investigator related to him the account that Mr. Zimmerman provided of the incident. At that time the investigator said that Mr. Zimmerman portrayed himself to be “squeaky clean." We are aware of the background information regarding both individuals involved in this event. We believe Mr. Martin may have misconstrued this information.

What about media re-enactments of the shooting incident?

Any media re-enactments of the shooting incident are purely speculation. To date the Sanford Police Department has not released any rendition of the events of the evening to anyone other than the Office of the State Attorney. The renditions we have seen are not consistent with the evidence in this case.

The Sanford Police Department has conducted a complete and fair investigation of this incident. We have provided the results of our investigation to the Office of the State Attorney for their review and consideration for possible criminal prosecution.

Although the Police Department is the target of the troubling questions, let me assure you we too feel the pain of this senseless tragedy that has dramatically affected our community. Therefore, as we move forward and strive to answer the questions that are a point of controversy in the community, we ask for your patience, understanding and assistance in getting the correct information to the community.

Thank you,
Norton N. Bonaparte, Jr., ICMA-CM
City Manager

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/2...-answer-questions-about-teens-shooting-death/

 

[Jaybird]

Trayvon Martin Exclusive: Friend on Phone with Teen Before Death Recalls Final Moments
http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin...-teen-death-recounts-063243901--abc-news.html

That boys terrified call for help right before the gun shot curdles my blood. http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/trayvon-martins-alleged-killer-911-calls-15957343 That poor boy! My heart goes out to his parents. According to the yahoo news link, the FBI is now involved.

Note. From above. Eye witness testimony proves it was Zimmerman crying out for help. Not Martin.

I'm sorry, "Neighborhood Watch" or not, let the police handle it if you think someone walking the streets is a serious threat.

I won't claim to know what happened, it sounds incredibly bad on the part of Zimmerman from my view, but say Martin DID attack him to the degree lethal force was needed to save Zimmerman's life (a far stretch given these details), the dispatcher clearly told the man to stop following him...should have ended there.

And he did stop by all evidence.

I had heard he was "self-appointed", as the petition states, which makes it all more whackadoodle vigilantism.

And no. he was not 'self-appointed' The HOA asked for volunteers because they had a rash of break ins and thefts in the community. Zimmerman was the only one that stepped forward to volunteer.

That is a horrible scream to hear. With the guy uttering what sounded like 'get out of my damn yard' as he fired, it makes it seem as though there was only one thing on his mind, given the preceding scuffle.

So many questions... I hope any trial provides some answers.

I agree. It was a disturbing scream. Which is why it is important to note the eye-witness testimony saying it was Zimmerman, not Martin.

The FBI is also investigating the incompetence of the Sanford police. The chief has already stepped down, and more heads will roll over this. It appears one cop attempted to change the testimony of a witness. They sent the narcotics team out to investigate instead of homicide. Epic incompetence occurred here - That's why the feds are involved.



This Zimmerman character is a complete asshat. He was a habitual cop caller. He called 911 46 times since Jan. 1, 2011 to report disturbances, break-ins, windows left open and other incidents. Nine of those times, he "saw someone or something suspicious".

The 911 operator told Zimmerman NOT TO FOLLOW that kid. I've heard several 911 transcripts, and these alone should justify arrest and prosecution of this idiot.

This issue is HUGE. It will not be swept under the rug.

It is huge. But not for the reasons you believe. It is huge because it shows how the media biases the public. And how the public than soaks it up like a sponge.

While he may have called the non emergency line 46 time, he was the neighborhood watch. That was his 'job'. There were also over 400 calls to 911 from that development in the past year. with 8 burglaries, and one other shooting, and lots of petty theft.

And he did not 'continue to follow'. You dont know that he did. You assume it because the media tells you so.

They may not get a conviction on murder, but the government WILL get a conviction violating the deceased civil liberties. Mark my words.

What has me really PO'ed is that the defense will probably use some of Florida's lax gun protection laws to claim the dirtbag was protecting himself, even though HE (the dirtbag) was the one who started the chain of events that lead to this tragedy. This piece of crap is a prime example why some people should NOT be allowed to carry a firearm.

Yeah...no. They wont be able to get him on any civil rights violation unless it is a gross miscarriage of justice. I have done a fair bit of research on the guy. There is no evidence that he was a 'racist' and actually plenty of evidence to dispute it.

Even the 911 call disputes he was following this 'kid' because he was black. When prompted by the operator "Is he white, black, etc" he says..."He looks black" That doesnt sound like someone out roaming the streets to shoot a black kid.

Any civilian who carries a sidearm and goes after a person who is NOT immediately threatening them is a FUCKING idiot cop wanna be. The man with the gun initiated the chain of events which lead to this tragedy.

Listen, I don't care if the teen was beating the living shit out the cop wanna be. THAT IS WHY WHEN YOU CARRY A SIDEARM AND ARE NOT A LEO, YOU DO NOT ADVANCE ON SOMEONE WHO YOU MIGHT THINK IS A THREAT!

Do you think you can understand that?

I agree with you. But that is not relevant to this case at all.

Even the city managers report disputes it. Heck, he was a citizen at the time on an errand. He had every right to be armed. And every right to be armed in the area. And had every right to call into 911 what he thought was 'suspicious' behavior. By all 'real' accounts, he got out of his own vehicle only to see which way Martin 'fled' based on the operators question. Then, he stopped the pursuit. Unless you can prove otherwise, he was well within his rights to defend himself if 'attacked' And that moment, will be the deciding factor on whether Zimmerman is guilty of anything or not. Nothing more imo according to Law.

 

[Panacea]

By what evidence did he stop following the kid?

Stepping forward is being self appointed in my opinion, and I feel that he was not ordained to be a vigilante.
This goes for anything, in my opinion. Neighborhood watch should be just that, neighbors watching and reporting, not fucking trying to apprehend people or follow them.

A poster here once followed someone who stole a belonging of hers, and she was blasted for the danger she put herself in. If the tables turn and it's somehow found Martin was trying to kill Zimmerman, I would personally still blame Zimmerman for being an idiot and hounding someone around (by the sounds of the info reported in the non-emergency phone call and Martin's call to his friend).

 

[hart]

I keep coming back to the fact the kid got candy and a pop before or after visiting a relative......REAL suspicious behavior alright.

Unlike following a kid with a gun........

 

[Jaybird]

By what evidence did he stop following the kid?

By the 911 call when he agrees to in the affirmative of 'Okay'

By his own testimony.(read the city managers report)

Is there any evidence to say he didnt? That he was not going back to his vehicle? If not...it can not be 'fabricated' You can not 'assume' in a court of law. You need facts and evidence to arrest someone.

By all accounts, Zimmerman fully cooperated with police. Heck, he didnt even lawyer up(I know that is the absolute first thing I would have done in a shooting situation). They took him down for questioning 'that day' and interrogated him. There actually IS an arrest report filled out that day. Just because after telling his story, was brought back to the scene to recount his story, and the police determined that they had no probably cause to dispute his statement and released him, and were continuing the investigation does not mean his statement was a lie.

Stepping forward is being self appointed in my opinion, and I feel that he was not ordained to be a vigilante.
This goes for anything, in my opinion. Neighborhood watch should be just that, neighbors watching and reporting, not fucking trying to apprehend people or follow them.

No. 'self appointed' would be him one day waking up and deciding that he was the neighborhood watch. He volunteered when the HOA asked for volunteers. And the HOA accepted him. I have actually seen it stated that he went to a state sponsored 4 month class as well. That doesnt seem 'self appointed' to me.

And the calls of 'vigilante' are just more media BS. It has nothing to do with fact.

A poster here once followed someone who stole a belonging of hers, and she was blasted for the danger she put herself in. If the tables turn and it's somehow found Martin was trying to kill Zimmerman, I would personally still blame Zimmerman for being an idiot and hounding someone around (by the sounds of the info reported in the non-emergency phone call and Martin's call to his friend).

Yes. It is dangerous to follow someone that you suspect of committing a crime. Which is why the non emergency operator in this case told him they didnt need him to follow Martin. That is all it is. It doesnt mean it is law. It doesn't make it a criminal offense. Stupid...yes. But not criminal. And hey, guess what...if my Girlfriend is being raped on my front patio, and I call up 911, they are going to tell me to wait for the police to show up and not to interfere. That doesnt mean I am going to sit there and wait for the cops.

Bottom line. The non emergency operator can say whatever the hell he\she wants. It doesn't mean you have to obey them, or are giving you a lawful order. They will place your safety above anything else...that is all it is.

But, again...he may have been stupid getting out of his car, but the evidence suggests he did so at the urging of the same operator who told him to not follow, by attempting to find out which way Martin was running, so he could answer the operators question. If he followed the operator in this instance, why would he not follow the operator when told not to follow...after he was already following? And how can you prove that he didnt listen to the 'advice'. Because that is all it is, advice.

 

[Panacea]

And the calls of 'vigilante' are just more media BS. It has nothing to do with fact.

Vigilante is my word for his actions, I've not seen the media use it.

Yes. It is dangerous to follow someone that you suspect of committing a crime. Which is why the non emergency operator in this case told him they didnt need him to follow Martin. That is all it is. It doesnt mean it is law. It doesn't make it a criminal offense. Stupid...yes. But not criminal. And hey, guess what...if my Girlfriend is being raped on my front patio, and I call up 911, they are going to tell me to wait for the police to show up and not to interfere. That doesnt mean I am going to sit there and wait for the cops.

Bad analogy as we have NO evidence Martin was doing anything wrong whatsoever, let alone something as bad and worth action as raping a woman in front of her boyfriend. ffs

If you're going to bold prove for Zimmerman, give the same courtesy to the dead.

 

[Joe the meek]

I agree with you. But that is not relevant to this case at all.

Even the city managers report disputes it. Heck, he was a citizen at the time on an errand. He had every right to be armed. And every right to be armed in the area. And had every right to call into 911 what he thought was 'suspicious' behavior. By all 'real' accounts, he got out of his own vehicle only to see which way Martin 'fled' based on the operators question. Then, he stopped the pursuit. Unless you can prove otherwise, he was well within his rights to defend himself if 'attacked' And that moment, will be the deciding factor on whether Zimmerman is guilty of anything or not. Nothing more imo according to Law.

If I'm walking down the street and I see you, and tell you that I just fucked your momma, who was screaming like an overpaid whore and bitched slapped her for good measure, and you come after me...well, if I pull out my gun and shoot you dead because I was in fear for my life isn't a reason not to hang me.

Unless EVERYONE is lying, this guy is nothing more than a cop wanna be who thought he was the sheriff because he had a gun and put both himself and his victim in the situation they are both in. One dead, and another going to be hanged.

When one carries a gun as a civilian, one does increase the odds of confrontation where you may need that weapon. Many a times I felt like honking my horn or giving someone the finger when driving, but don't do so, because if they get pissed, pull over and I'm in fear for my life, I could be held accountable for my actions.

 

[Jaybird]

Why is it a bad analogy? It is simply saying that a 911 operator will tell you to not get involved and put yourself in danger....no matter what the situation. It doesn't make not 'obeying their advice' a criminal action.

And I am not sticking up for Zimmerman. I am only stating facts, and not blindly repeating opinions, hearsay, and fabrications that the media fed me.

 

[Jaybird]

Joe,
What if I told you that he typically was not 'armed' with anything more than his dog and a phone when he was 'on patrol'. And the only reason he was actually armed this time was because he was out on a errand, and decided to carry.

Would that sway your mind that he was a 'wanna be' Joe?

Because I know I have read that before. It would take me awhile, time I don't have today to try to find that article out of the hundred or so articles I have read on this over the past 3 weeks or so. Yes, I have been following this that long. It's been in my local papers since day 1.

 

[Joe the meek]

Joe,
What if I told you that he typically was not 'armed' with anything more than his dog and a phone when he was 'on patrol'. And the only reason he was actually armed this time was because he was out on a errand, and decided to carry.

Would that sway your mind that he was a 'wanna be' Joe?

Because I know I have read that before. It would take me awhile, time I don't have today to try to find that article out of the hundred or so articles I have read on this over the past 3 weeks or so. Yes, I have been following this that long. It's been in my local papers since day 1.

Ultimately, since he was armed, he HAS to hold himself to a higher standard per his own actions and how his actions may affect others and their actions towards him. Carrying a gun may be a right, but it's also a huge responsibility.

That said, I've always held to the notion that as a civilian, if you're armed, you need to ensure that you've exhausted all resources first for a retreat BEFORE you take offensive action (given of course you actually have the time to determine if you have options). Florida's law on that subject scares me.