ZeitGeist II - Please watch

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Meirionnydd

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Why are you sure? I should point out that ANYTHING you read about him in the MSM is a complete lie. The first coup that removed him from office was staged. His wiki page is interesting, and shows why he is anti US (and no, it's not at all "cliched", it's quite justified given what the US & IMF do to countries like Venezuela.)

The poverty endured in Venezuela is because of the US, the IMF and World Bank and the sanctions they impose (like destroying countries social systems) on countries that don't play ball with them. The country is still impoverished, but they now have health care as a guaranteed right, an improving social services sector, poverty is on the decline and generally the country is improving.

Read something like http://venezuelanalysis.com/indicators if you want to learn more than the propaganda that's fed to you by your mainstream media, who have a vested interest in building hate towards Chavez.

From what I've heard about it, I believe it did.

Ironically enough, the US is Venezuela's primary purchaser of oil, so for all this anti-US rhetoric he spits out, Venezuela's economy is almost entirely dependent on the United States.

Also, a myriad of non-governmental and independent organizations have expressed great concern for human rights abuses in the country, such as maltreatment of opposition party members, constraining free speech, concentrating political power and having immense influence over other branches of government, such as the judiciary.

While there has been social improvements, many social problems have simply been ignored. Under Chavez's rule, the murder rate in Venezuela has almost doubled, from 6,000 homicides in 1998, to 13,000 in 2008. The government has been extremely reluctant to act on this. In fact, when an opposition newspaper recently published a newspaper article examining the extent of the problem, the courts ordered the paper to cease any reporting relating to crime. Given the already heavily politicized nature of the judiciary in the country, this seems like an attempt from Chavez to stifle criticism and subvert free speech.

The website you posted earlier, also seems highly dubious, I suppose as a natural response to the mainstream media propaganda demonizing Chavez, you post a link exposing pro-Chavez propaganda.
 
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retro

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Why are you sure? I should point out that ANYTHING you read about him in the MSM is a complete lie. The first coup that removed him from office was staged. His wiki page is interesting, and shows why he is anti US (and no, it's not at all "cliched", it's quite justified given what the US & IMF do to countries like Venezuela.)



The poverty endured in Venezuela is because of the US, the IMF and World Bank and the sanctions they impose (like destroying countries social systems) on countries that don't play ball with them. The country is still impoverished, but they now have health care as a guaranteed right, an improving social services sector, poverty is on the decline and generally the country is improving.

Read something like http://venezuelanalysis.com/indicators if you want to learn more than the propaganda that's fed to you by your mainstream media, who have a vested interest in building hate towards Chavez.



From what I've heard about it, I believe it did.

Ed... did I really just read that you think that 9/11 was an "inside job"?

/facepalm
 

edgray

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Ironically enough, the US is Venezuela's primary purchaser of oil, so for all this anti-US rhetoric he spits out, Venezuela's economy is almost entirely dependent on the United States.

yes they are. But the US isn't happy with Chavez because he's not selling it as cheap as the US want. That's why they're trying to vilify him in the MSM, that's why they want to take him out. That's why they brand him "evil". That's why you think he's bad for Venezuela. Funny how the vast majority of Venezuelans don't.

Also, a myriad of non-governmental and independent organizations have expressed great concern for human rights abuses in the country, such as maltreatment of opposition party members, constraining free speech, concentrating political power and having immense influence over other branches of government, such as the judiciary.

There are human rights concerns, that's true. No one cared before Chavez when they leaders were much harsher - because they were Pro-US and highly corrupt.

There are still human right's issues, but nothing compared to what the MSM is painting:

http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/venezuela/report-2009

More and more people vote for him at every election because their country is improving in so many ways.

While there has been social improvements, many social problems have simply been ignored. Under Chavez's rule, the murder rate in Venezuela has almost doubled, from 6,000 homicides in 1998, to 13,000 in 2008. The government has been extremely reluctant to act on this. In fact, when an opposition newspaper recently published a newspaper article examining the extent of the problem, the courts ordered the paper to cease any reporting relating to crime. Given the already heavily politicized nature of the judiciary in the country, this seems like an attempt from Chavez to stifle criticism and subvert free speech.

Look at the Amnesty International page on Venezuela, human rights violations are on the decline there.

And hang on, you said he'd failed to rectify things? But things are moving in the right direction for Venezuela and things are improving massively than from before. They are trying to tackle the crime problem, they've set up the Bolivarian National Police which has started to lower crime rates.

The website you posted earlier, also seems highly dubious, I suppose as a natural response to the mainstream media propaganda demonizing Chavez, you post a link exposing pro-Chavez propaganda.

I guess we'll never know 100% either way. I'm guessing it's much more accurate than the BS you get from the mainstream about him being a totally evil dictator, even though he was democratically elected and wins by more votes every election........... but hey, what do they venezuelans know, right?
 

edgray

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I suggest you do so, because it goes to the credibility of the film that you're promoting.

What you're essentially saying is that if someone is wrong about 1 thing, they are then wrong about everything else?

Might I remind you of the time you and others here hadn't heard of Libertarian Socialism, didn't believe it to exist as a political philosophy and didn't believe it had ever existed. I proved my case about that. Now, does that make everything you've said since wrong by association? No, of course it doesn't.

I have spent the past couple of days watching the first film, and was pretty impressed.

Part 1 deals with the fallacy of religion, shows how the Christian faith, and other faiths, are simply myths told to explain things like the changes in seasons, the zodiac etc. Very interesting.

Part 2 deals with 9/11. I've made some notes on this. There is little narration on this part, and Peter Joseph makes no claims himself, he only reports on the various 9/11 truth movement's findings. It takes the official story and breaks it apart like so:

There were no warnings about 9/11
1) NORAD had already done simulations of planes attacking the WTC.
2) Operation Mascal, Oct 2000 simulated planes hitting the Pentagon.
3) Federal Administration received 52 warnings about Al Qaeda in six months before 9/11
4) Able Danger had identified 4 of the 9/11 terrorists in the US more than a year b4 attacks. (lt col Anthony shaffer went public - and the govt tried to silence him
5) at least 12 countries warned US about imminent danger

Then it goes into the hijackers:
1) no inquiry made into $100k wired to Mohammed Atta
2) 2 terrorists lived with FBI informant prior to 9/11
3) several hijackers still alive and well (Abdulaziz al-Omari, for example) and 5 have ties to US Military institutions.
4) blatant planted evidence (such as the passport that survived and was found in the rubble...)

Osama Bin Laden
1) FBI was told not to investigate Bin Laden family in US before 9/11
2) He was already US's most wanted criminal, and still spent 2 weeks in American Hospital in Dubai in 2001.
3) No evidence has been provided that he was linked to 9/11 (The Taliban said they would hand Bin Laden over if evidence was provided, and it never materialised)
4) … other than those phony videos of him…
5) … the translation of which is under much debate, with many translators completely disagreeing that there is any admission at all
6) There are well known relations between the Bin Ladens and the Bushs.
7) … and of course their ties to the Carlyle Group
8) … with Osama's older brother Shafig bin Laden even meeting with them on the morning of 9/11
9) … the Carlyle Group being linked to the world's largest defence contractors… all of which benefited from 9/11

Pentagon
1) The alleged pilot, Han Hanjour, was a terrible pilot who couldn't even control a cessna, yet the precision needed to make the manoeuvre was incredibly difficult. One previous instructor claimed he couldn't fly at all.
2) complete lack of any remaining parts of the plane, even the jet engines. official story claims plane was "vaporised" yet bodies were able to be identified by finger prints…
3) All forensic evidence was covered up with dirt and gravel
4) No videos have been released showing the plane, in spite of a possible 80 odd CCTV cameras in the area, all videos were immediately confiscated by FBI…
5) Videos that have been refused for release to the public.

Shanksville
1) parts of plane bizarrely found several miles away.

WTC 1, 2 & 7
1) pancake theory, official story, makes no sense - the remaining pile of debris didn't show this. the central column collapsed along with the floors.
2) Buildings were designed to take impact of 707 (Les Robertson, WTC Structural Engineer) hitting at any location.
3) Manager, WTC Construction, thought building could sustain "multiple impacts."
4) the near free-fall speed highly unlikely if building fell through itself.
5) simultaneous failing of floors and columns highly unlikely.
6) Photo of a core column seen after collapse at WTC is clearly shown to have a typical angled cut associated with controlled demolitions

wtc.png


7) Molten metal - NASA temperature photos & Eye witness accounts - completely ignored in official report
8) Active Thermite material discovered in dust (The Open Chemical Physics Journal, 2009)
9) Prof Neils Harrit found Thermidic material in remains.
10) building 7 makes no sense.
11) NIST report misses a lot of vital evidence and in all 10,000 doesn't actually address the collapse.
12) not one single piece of steal analysed from WTC7
13) NIST admitted there was a period of free fall for 2.25 seconds but provide no explanation as to how this fits in with their "progressive collapse" theory.
14) explosions heard and felt BEFORE initial impact. (William Rodriguez, WTC employee)
15) smoke seen coming from basements right at impact.
16) smoke continues to bellow from basement.
17) fire fighters witness explosions as well as molten metal
18) eye witness reports of lobby being blown up as buildings evacuated.

The most telling bit is about NORAD:

NORAD
1) planes should've been intercepted. that is standard procedure.
2) interceptions usually occur within 10 minutes. On this day, it took 80 minutes to get planes airborne.
3) Massive war games taking place messing with radar, causing massive confusion
4) FAA reported the problem to NORAD and asked for assistance.
5) in 2000 Norad had 67 intercepts, 100% accuracy, on 9/11 they failed 4 times in one day.

9/11 Commission
1) Origin of money to fund 9/11 considered of no importance to commission.
2) Commission admits it cannot explain collapse of WTC7.
3) Bush and Cheney met together and not under oath. no one allowed to attend, no recording allowed.
4) report was unanimous, if the was a disagreement it was dropped.

Terrorism
1) video points out how the Bush administration built a totally unfounded fear of terrorism to pursue their imperial goals, making wildly unfounded claims about the strength, power and organisation of Al Qaeda. Yet NOT ONE SINGLE TERRORIST CONVICTION CAME OF IT. Not one sleeper cell, not one mountain strong-hold.
2) entire foreign and domestic policy built around a myth of a constant terrorist threat.
3) Ted Gunderson, former FBI chief, goes on record pointing out the CIA's involvement in terrorist acts saying the CIA were behind most, if not all of them.
4) Terrorism used to remove civil liberties, not to mention the most basic of rights habeus corpus.
5) London 7/7: 3 trains and a bus bombed. 56 dead which coincided with anti-terror exercise dealing with exact same scenario, exact same stations.

Since 9/11
a) military spending increased 100 billion every year
b) Nearly all of the bill of rights subverted (???????)
c) two pre-emptive wars waged, estimated 800,000 civilian casualties

Not once does the maker of the video claim 9/11 to be an inside job. It's easy to come to the conclusion that the Bush administration was at the very least complicit in 9/11 - they wanted that to happen and they seemed to allow it. I think the NORAD & 9/11 Commission parts is all you need to see that.

Personally, I don't really believe the Bush govt blew up WTC. Though it's hard to understand why Thermite was found. I think it's pretty apparent that they wanted it to happen, they certainly benefited from it happening and I believe they allowed it to happen to further their imperialistic agenda.

Part III should really interest you. It goes into detail about the history of banking in the US, the history of the Federal Reserve and it's board. Definitely worth watching this part if you want to understand the Fed and the damage the private banking cartels have had on the US and the world.

(Excuse the crudity of the notes, it was a lot to take down.)
 

Alien Allen

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The only thing I think that might be covered up is the possibility the plane in Shanksville was actually taken down by the Air Force

The rest of the stuff is all sheer conjecture and out right lies

Particularly the bit where some of the hijackers are alive

If that was true then they obviously did not hijack any planes

And there was an engine found at the Pentagon. Not sure where they come up with the claim it was completely vaporized
 

edgray

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The only thing I think that might be covered up is the possibility the plane in Shanksville was actually taken down by the Air Force

I agree about that. I remember looking into Normal Mineta's statement to the 9/11 commission. He claimed Cheney was being given information about the plane incoming to the Pentagon, but it's much more likely he was talking about Shanksville, given the time frames.

The rest of the stuff is all sheer conjecture and out right lies

That's a lot of conjecture and a lot of lies then. Can you be more specific? It would be helpful if you could counter my notes above with decent explanations of each point.

Particularly the bit where some of the hijackers are alive

If that was true then they obviously did not hijack any planes

It's this kind of thing that throws the official story out of the window. The same hijackers are still wanted for perpetrating the crime, I believe. I need to look into that aspect a lot more.

And there was an engine found at the Pentagon. Not sure where they come up with the claim it was completely vaporized

If you watch the video, they cite all their sources, or you can download the PDF to accompany it here.
 

retro

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First part of my response...

What you're essentially saying is that if someone is wrong about 1 thing, they are then wrong about everything else?

Not necessarily, but it goes to their credibility... especially when making outrageous claims.

Might I remind you of the time you and others here hadn't heard of Libertarian Socialism, didn't believe it to exist as a political philosophy and didn't believe it had ever existed. I proved my case about that. Now, does that make everything you've said since wrong by association? No, of course it doesn't.

We all knew Libertarian Socialism by a different name... a form of anarchy.

I have spent the past couple of days watching the first film, and was pretty impressed.

Part 1 deals with the fallacy of religion, shows how the Christian faith, and other faiths, are simply myths told to explain things like the changes in seasons, the zodiac etc. Very interesting.

Those are the director's conjecture and do not address the proven historical facts that are in the bible.

Part 2 deals with 9/11. I've made some notes on this. There is little narration on this part, and Peter Joseph makes no claims himself, he only reports on the various 9/11 truth movement's findings. It takes the official story and breaks it apart like so:

There were no warnings about 9/11
1) NORAD had already done simulations of planes attacking the WTC.
2) Operation Mascal, Oct 2000 simulated planes hitting the Pentagon.
3) Federal Administration received 52 warnings about Al Qaeda in six months before 9/11
4) Able Danger had identified 4 of the 9/11 terrorists in the US more than a year b4 attacks. (lt col Anthony shaffer went public - and the govt tried to silence him
5) at least 12 countries warned US about imminent danger

1) The World Trade Center drill wasn't run, because it was believed to be too far-fetched.

2) Operation MASCAL did in fact occur, but I believe there were also WH simulations as well. You do realize that the military has contingency plans for all sorts of different events. It doesn't mean that they're planning on using them or anything else, but they're merely there just in case. I believe there are plans on how to wage war with just about every industrialized nation in the world. It doesn't mean that we're planning to do so, merely that they exist should we be attacked.

3) Yes, 52 warnings were received by the FAA... but these warnings were also passed along to appropriate government agencies, as well as airlines and airports. However, nothing was ever said about 9/11 specifically, only vague warnings regarding Osama bin Laden. Here is what the report on what the FAA received has to say...

The Federal Aviation Administration received repeated warnings in the months before Sept. 11, 2001, that al Qaeda hoped to attack airlines, according to a previously undisclosed report by the commission that investigated the terrorist attacks.

The report detailed 52 such warnings to FAA leaders between April 1 and Sept. 10, 2001, about the terrorist organization and its leader, Osama bin Laden.

The commission report, written last August, said five security warnings mentioned al Qaeda's training for hijackings and two reports concerned suicide operations not connected to aviation. None of the warnings specified what would happen on Sept. 11.

FAA spokeswoman Laura Brown said the agency received intelligence from other agencies, which it passed on to airlines and airports. But "we had no specific information about means or methods that would have enabled us to tailor any countermeasures," she said.

So they had 5 warnings that mentioned potential training for hijacking. Hardly grounds for a conspiracy that the FAA knew something was going to happen and covered it up.

4) Nothing conclusive has ever been determined regarding Able Danger. The US Senate Intelligence Committee launched a sixteen month investigation into Able Danger and concluded, "Able Danger did not identify Mohamed Atta or any other 9/11 hijacker at any time prior to September 11, 2001". While on the other hand, we have a few military officers claiming otherwise. There is the issue of the deleted data, which I'm sure is fuel for the conspiracy theorists... but again, nothing conclusive.

5) The warnings received from other countries are covered in the FAA comments.

Then it goes into the hijackers:
1) no inquiry made into $100k wired to Mohammed Atta
2) 2 terrorists lived with FBI informant prior to 9/11
3) several hijackers still alive and well (Abdulaziz al-Omari, for example) and 5 have ties to US Military institutions.
4) blatant planted evidence (such as the passport that survived and was found in the rubble...)

1) The FBI actually did investigate the source of the money wired to Atta

2) People double and even triple cross all the time. Just because he was an FBI informant doesn't mean that he was passing along good intel, in fact it stands to reason that he was flat-out lying to the FBI.

3) Could simply be a case of mistaken identities or misdirection by the terrorists involved. Believe it or not, government agencies aren't infallible... as proven by the fact that the attacks even occurred. In addition, there are plenty of arabs out there with similar or even exact same names. It'd be like saying that I was a terrorist and blew up a building... and then a news agency found a picture of someone with my same name who they thought was the responsible party, and posted a picture of him. When in actuality, it was me. I also believe the FBI only released the names initially, and not pictures... that was done by the BBC. The FBI released names and pictures later on in the month.

4) Weirder things have happened to be honest with you. You can't claim that it was blatant planted evidence without anything proving that fact.

Osama Bin Laden
1) FBI was told not to investigate Bin Laden family in US before 9/11
2) He was already US's most wanted criminal, and still spent 2 weeks in American Hospital in Dubai in 2001.
3) No evidence has been provided that he was linked to 9/11 (The Taliban said they would hand Bin Laden over if evidence was provided, and it never materialised)
4) … other than those phony videos of him…
5) … the translation of which is under much debate, with many translators completely disagreeing that there is any admission at all
6) There are well known relations between the Bin Ladens and the Bushs.
7) … and of course their ties to the Carlyle Group
8) … with Osama's older brother Shafig bin Laden even meeting with them on the morning of 9/11
9) … the Carlyle Group being linked to the world's largest defence contractors… all of which benefited from 9/11

1) The FBI was in fact told not to investigate the bin Laden family.... in 1996
http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a96wamy#a96wamy

2) There is no source proving this fact... it's merely conjecture. The story that was run was based on a leak from someone "associated with the management team" of the American hospital in Dubai. Hardly a reputable source... and it never got any legs to it either.

3) His confession doesn't matter?

4) Oh, his confession was a phony video. Sure, makes plenty of sense despite the fact that the video and audio were confirmed to be him and his voice.

5) Oh, he simply didn't confess at all? Convenient.

6) What connections? The $1.4 Billion that's been claimed by Moore and the House of Bush, House of Saud book? Big problem with that, it's alleged that 90% of this came from the Saudi Government awarding a $1.18bil contract to a U.S. Defense contractor, BDM. The supposed connection comes from the fact that BDM was owned by the Carlyle group. Except that H.W. Bush didn't join the Carlyle board of directors until after BDM was sold off by Carlyle.

7) The Bush's also have ties to plenty of other companies. It doesn't prove anything. Also, only 7% of the Carlyle group focuses on defense contracting. You do also realize that there is another well-known figure that has invested with the Carlyle group... George Soros. I guess Soros must have been involved with 9/11 somehow as well. Seriously? I thought all of this stuff has debunked after Moore's mockumentary came out. The Bush administration also severely hurt Carlyle by cancelling the $11 billion Crusader artillery rocket system.

8) The Carlyle group has provided proof of bin Laden's estranged older brother making minor investments with the company. This was at a conference, the same conference that H.W. Bush had been at the day before. The video makes it sound as though they were meeting with him specifically, when in fact there were many attendees.

9) Carlyle owns many different companies that profited from Iraq and Afghanistan. I call that good business practice... having the right services at the right time. Again, United Defense (which was purchased by another company in 2005) accounted for 7% of Carlyle's total business.
 

retro

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Part two of my response...

Pentagon
1) The alleged pilot, Han Hanjour, was a terrible pilot who couldn't even control a cessna, yet the precision needed to make the manoeuvre was incredibly difficult. One previous instructor claimed he couldn't fly at all.
2) complete lack of any remaining parts of the plane, even the jet engines. official story claims plane was "vaporised" yet bodies were able to be identified by finger prints…
3) All forensic evidence was covered up with dirt and gravel
4) No videos have been released showing the plane, in spite of a possible 80 odd CCTV cameras in the area, all videos were immediately confiscated by FBI…
5) Videos that have been refused for release to the public.

1) What precision movement? He proved that he was an inexperienced pilot on his approach to the pentagon.

77FlightPath.jpg

He started that maneuver at 8,000 feet and ended it at 2,000 feet.

Here's a pilot directly refuting what's listed by the Venus Project... and I've quoted the relevant comments, but feel free to read it all yourself.

http://www.911myths.com/Another_Expert.pdf

All airline pilots started their careers at a level at which they were
incompetent even to fly a Cessna 172. Flying schools were created just for
this reason. The point is another: were the alleged hijackers as clueless as
mr. Sagadevan is saying, and how good must someone be, in order to do
what the official story says the hijackers did? We’ll see…

As far as the "precision needed"

Untrained in what? mr. Sagadevan doesn’t say. And what does he mean by
“navigating”? If I want to go from point A to point B by plane I can decide to
just follow roads, railroads, even traffic signs, if I fly low enough. I can use
the stars or the sun, or I can just set up my Flight Management System and
let it do all the work. By the way this is what most pilots, if they have the
proper equipment, and they fly for a living, will do. So, could it be that an
“untrained” pilot might need to learn only a few button pushing sequences in
order to go from point A to point B? we’ll see….

Again, there is ample proof (just check out this link : Chapter 7 of the 9/11
Commission Report (http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/pdf/fullreport.pdf) but I
suggest you read all the 585 pages of it) that all hijackers involved had at
least private pilot licences, and those who hit their intended target had a
commercial licence. If they were deemed to be barely average, it means that
they were barely average by FAA standards, which are not so low… So not
being able to shoot an ILS approach to within X degrees of precision, doesn’t
necessarily mean that you can’t make uncoordinated turns and suicidal dives.

There's plenty more... but I'll let you read it for yourself. Very informative.

2) I don't recall any story claiming that they were identified by fingerprints. As far as I'm aware, identification took place via DNA evidence. The bodies also couldn't be "vaporized" because it takes 90 minutes at a sustained 1800° to completely burn up a body, which means that DNA evidence would be very possible to identify the bodies.
Source - http://www.ees.ufl.edu/homepp/cywu/ENV4121/Project2001/Crematory/Regulations.htm

3) The November 2001 edition of Civil Engineering Magazine explains that
Ed Pickens, the senior construction scheduler: "On that first day we discussed with the FBI where to place the dumpsters needed to cart away debris. We discovered, however, that the dumpsters had to be brand new because the debris was evidence and could not be contaminated in any way. So we had to deliver numerous new dumpsters to the site immediately. And then I informed the FBI that we were going to have to build a road for the trucks carrying the debris because the ground around the heliport—the area closest to the blast—was too soft.

The FBI authorized construction of the road, and I called a contractor, who got the gravel, and we got things moving"
http://www.pubs.asce.org/ceonline/ceonline01/0111feat.html

4) National Security anyone? Yes, I'd really like to release video detailing just exactly how a plane flew into the Pentagon and destroyed a number of its rings.

5) see 4

Shanksville
1) parts of plane bizarrely found several miles away.

It could be possible that the plane in question here could have been shot down by U.S. fighters. However.... it's not the first time that something like that has happened before either.

American Airlines flight 587, for instance, crashed in New York in November 2001 when its vertical stabilizer separated in flight. The NTSB report said...

"The engines, which also separated from the aircraft seconds before ground impact, were found several blocks from the wreckage site".

http://www.ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2004/041026.htm
 

retro

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Part Three

WTC 1, 2 & 7
1) pancake theory, official story, makes no sense - the remaining pile of debris didn't show this. the central column collapsed along with the floors.
2) Buildings were designed to take impact of 707 (Les Robertson, WTC Structural Engineer) hitting at any location.
3) Manager, WTC Construction, thought building could sustain "multiple impacts."
4) the near free-fall speed highly unlikely if building fell through itself.
5) simultaneous failing of floors and columns highly unlikely.
6) Photo of a core column seen after collapse at WTC is clearly shown to have a typical angled cut associated with controlled demolitions

wtc.png


7) Molten metal - NASA temperature photos & Eye witness accounts - completely ignored in official report
8) Active Thermite material discovered in dust (The Open Chemical Physics Journal, 2009)

1) It actually does make sense...

The mechanics of the collapse are really much more simple than conspiracy theorists would like you to believe. The heat expanded the steel in the truss in all directions. As a result they also expanded into the columns. The trusses/floor system, sagged in the middle because the columns were preventing the trusses from expanding in their direction. That led to the bowing of the exterior columns.

In terms of mass, the floors were comparable to tree trunks and the columns were like branches. The floor connections of the long span floors could support a load of a couple story masses and had an energy absorbing ability of a couple hundredths of a GJ per story. The floor connections were like crepe connecting the floors to the columns. The crepe was sufficient for the structure in its static organized state but was a weak link during collapse when the structure in the region of the collapse front no longer resembled the static organized state.

collapsesim.jpg


The "pancaking" wasn't the cause of the collapse, but it was a result of the collapse.

Failure of the gusset plate welded to the top of the truss chord was again almost exclusively observed regardless of location. This may be a result of overloading the lower floors as the floors above were "pan-caking".
NIST NCSTAR 1-3C Sect 3.5.3

The pancaking happened AFTER the building was on it's way down and therefore NOT part of the NIST investigation. The NIST only studied the collapse until "Global collapse was inevitable".

The focus of the Investigation was on the sequence of events from the instant of aircraft impact to the initiation of collapse for each tower. For brevity in this report, this sequence is referred to as the “probable collapse sequence,” although it does not actually include the structural behavior of the tower after the conditions for collapse initiation were reached and collapse became inevitable.
From the NIST report, page xxxvii:

2) That's partially correct... however, the WTC towers were built to withstand the impact of a 707, however...

The two towers were the first structures outside of the military and nuclear industries designed to resist the impact of a jet airliner, the Boeing 707. It was assumed that the jetliner would be lost in the fog, seeking to land at JFK or at Newark.

The speed estimate was around 180MPH, not the 470-590MPH impact that the planes actually hit the WTC at. In addition, while the buildings may have been designed to survive a direct impact from a plane, that doesn't mean that they were designed to withstand the fires that would be associated with it.

3) See above, they withstood impact, they just didn't withstand the resulting fires

http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc_707_impact.html

4) I encourage you to read this document:
http://www.911myths.com/WTCREPORT.pdf

Read section 3

The buildings fell well below free-fall speed. Look at the live video feel, the columns fell much faster than the building did.

5) It is if the steel was significantly weakened as it was. The fire-proofing was stripped off of the columns, meaning that temperatures of only 600° were needed in order to expand the steel enough for them to fall along with the rest of the tower. As the building began to bow, again from the expanded and weakened steel, the columns fell inwards, which makes it incredibly likely that the columns would fall along with the floors.

6) Addressed below under 8, about thermite

7) Easy enough

"NIST concluded that the source of the molten material was aluminum alloys from the aircraft, since these are known to melt between 475 degrees Celsius and 640 degrees Celsius (depending on the particular alloy), well below the expected temperatures (about 1,000 degrees Celsius) in the vicinity of the fires. Aluminum is not expected to ignite at normal fire temperatures and there is no visual indication that the material flowing from the tower was burning.

Pure liquid aluminum would be expected to appear silvery. However, the molten metal was very likely mixed with large amounts of hot, partially burned, solid organic materials (e.g., furniture, carpets, partitions and computers) which can display an orange glow, much like logs burning in a fireplace. The apparent color also would have been affected by slag formation on the surface."
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

If you look at this picture, it looks pretty obvious where the "molten metal" is coming from

debris.jpg


Yup, that's where the plane crashed.

NIST pg 43 Section H.9 App H Vol 4
Starting at around 9:52 a.m. a molten material began to pour from the top of the window 80-256 on the North face of WTC 2. The material appears intermittently until the tower collapses at 9:58:59. The observation of piles of debris in this area combined with the melting point behaviors of the primary alloys used in a Boeing 767 suggest that the material is molten aluminum derived from aircraft debris located on floor 81.

NIST H-7-2
Molten Material
It has been reported in the FEMA report (McAllister 2002) as well as in the media that what appeared to be molten metal was observed pouring from the north face near the northeast corner. This is the area where the sustained fires were seen. Video records and photography indicate that the material first appeared at 9:51:52 am and continued to pour intermittently from the building until the time of the collapse. Some of that material can be seen falling in Fig. H-21. Close up video and photographs of the area where the material is pouring from have been examined and show that it is falling from near the top of window 80-256. The most likely explanation for this observation is that the material had originally pooled on the floor above, that is 81, and that it was allowed to pour out of the building when this floor either pulled away from the outer spandrel or sank down to the point where the window was exposed. The fact that the material appears intermittently over a several minute period suggests that the floor was giving way bit by bit
http://wtc.nist.gov/progress_report_june04/appendixh.pdf
The composition of the flowing material can only be the subject of speculation, but its behavior is consistent with it being molten aluminum. Visual evidence suggest that a significant wreckage from the plane passed thought the building and came to rest in the northeast corner of the tower in the vicinity of the location where the material is observed.

Much of the structure of the Boeing 767 is formed from two aluminum alloys that have been identified as 2024 and 7075 closely related alloys. These alloys do not melt at a single temp, but melt over a temp range from the lower end of the range to the upper as the fraction of the liquid increases. The Aluminum association handbook lists the melting point as roughly 500C to 638 C and 475 C to 635C for alloys 2024 and 7075 respectively. These temperatures are well below those characteristic of fully developed fires (ca 1000C ) and any aluminum present is likely to be at least partially melted by the intense fires in the area.

8) Is this the same thermite that was supposedly found on the above column? Let's consider the timeline and the full picture here

angcut.jpg


There's a fireman there... just like there were in October, November, and December. That cut could have been made at any time. In addition, couldn't it have been a simple cut by an ironworker in order to make the column fall in a certain direction during cleanup? Now let's look at this photo...

cut.jpg


cut2.jpg


Could that actually be an angled cut? I thought those were only associated with controlled demolitions? Note the yellow smoke and residue that was supposedly associated with thermite? Not to mention the fact that thermite burns chaotically, so it'd be pretty impressive for it to burn at an angle sideways like that. Not to mention the sheer amount of thermite that would be necessary to burn through a column like that.

Oh, and by the way... the welder above, he's also working at the WTC site.
 

edgray

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Not necessarily, but it goes to their credibility... especially when making outrageous claims.

As I said, the maker doesn't make any claim at all regarding 9/11, just lets the many others who feel the US govt was complicit do the talking. It also doesn't affect the credibility of the movement, 9/11 isn't the basis for it, nor is it really an important point. What is important is the affect it's had on the world since the event.

Those are the director's conjecture and do not address the proven historical facts that are in the bible.

Not at all. If you look into the similarities between previous prophets of different religions and Jesus, there are too many similarities to ignore.

Please tell me what these proven historical facts are? And please, no mention of the four canonical Gospels of the Bible here, they're not at all reliable sources. We need evidence, and we need evidence in secular history.

Since the enlightenment, there is much opinion that Jesus simply didn't exist at all:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory

Though many scholars believe Jesus existed (religious scholars, of course), as some kind of religious person, there is no mention of the astounding miracles surrounding Jesus in secular history. Because, as we all know, they most likely didn't happen.

It's important to note that Jesus just simply isn't researched much by those outside of the religious arena. Because it would be like researching the tooth fairy. It only has validity as a cultural myth.

1) The World Trade Center drill wasn't run, because it was believed to be too far-fetched.

I didn't say they did a WTC drill. The idea of planes as weapons was thought of as a very real threat, hence operation Vigilant Guardian:

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=108_senate_hearings&docid=f:24495.wais

2) Operation MASCAL did in fact occur, but I believe there were also WH simulations as well. You do realize that the military has contingency plans for all sorts of different events. It doesn't mean that they're planning on using them or anything else, but they're merely there just in case. I believe there are plans on how to wage war with just about every industrialized nation in the world. It doesn't mean that we're planning to do so, merely that they exist should we be attacked.

I understand. But the point with this is that the official story claims this hadn't even been thought of, that, as Condelleza Rice said, "no one could have predicted this". That part is a complete lie by the Bush administration either to cover their incompetence or their negligence.

3) Yes, 52 warnings were received by the FAA... but these warnings were also passed along to appropriate government agencies, as well as airlines and airports. However, nothing was ever said about 9/11 specifically, only vague warnings regarding Osama bin Laden. Here is what the report on what the FAA received has to say...

So they had 5 warnings that mentioned potential training for hijacking. Hardly grounds for a conspiracy that the FAA knew something was going to happen and covered it up.

I don't think the FAA covered anything up. All of this just shows the outright lies in the official account - there had been plenty of warnings about an imminent terrorist attack.

4) Nothing conclusive has ever been determined regarding Able Danger. The US Senate Intelligence Committee launched a sixteen month investigation into Able Danger and concluded, "Able Danger did not identify Mohamed Atta or any other 9/11 hijacker at any time prior to September 11, 2001". While on the other hand, we have a few military officers claiming otherwise. There is the issue of the deleted data, which I'm sure is fuel for the conspiracy theorists... but again, nothing conclusive.

Nothing conclusive either way, though the terabytes of deleted data is highly suspicious, plus the fact that Able Danger claimed only 2 charts were made but several were produced at the hearing.

1) The FBI actually did investigate the source of the money wired to Atta

But the 9/11 commission ignored it and deemed it "of little practical significance"... which is incredibly odd, given the source of the money and what was done with it. Makes you think they didn't want people to know about it.

2) People double and even triple cross all the time. Just because he was an FBI informant doesn't mean that he was passing along good intel, in fact it stands to reason that he was flat-out lying to the FBI.

The point is the official story ignored this, like a staggering amount of other, very relevant info. Again showing the lies of the official story.

3) Could simply be a case of mistaken identities or misdirection by the terrorists involved. Believe it or not, government agencies aren't infallible... as proven by the fact that the attacks even occurred. In addition, there are plenty of arabs out there with similar or even exact same names. It'd be like saying that I was a terrorist and blew up a building... and then a news agency found a picture of someone with my same name who they thought was the responsible party, and posted a picture of him. When in actuality, it was me. I also believe the FBI only released the names initially, and not pictures... that was done by the BBC. The FBI released names and pictures later on in the month.

Very true, but don't you think they should have back-tracked and re-investigated? Changed the story perhaps? Again, it just shows the flaws in the official story.

4) Weirder things have happened to be honest with you. You can't claim that it was blatant planted evidence without anything proving that fact.

True, strange things do happen. But it does seem highly unlikely, so much so it couldn't be taken seriously as evidence.

1) The FBI was in fact told not to investigate the bin Laden family.... in 1996
http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a96wamy#a96wamy

True. But Bush signed "George W. Bush's Executive Order W199I-WF-213589" only months before 9/11

2) There is no source proving this fact... it's merely conjecture. The story that was run was based on a leak from someone "associated with the management team" of the American hospital in Dubai. Hardly a reputable source... and it never got any legs to it either.

True.

3) His confession doesn't matter?

If it were real it would, there's too much debate about the accuracy of the translation, not to mention the authenticity of the tape.

4) Oh, his confession was a phony video. Sure, makes plenty of sense despite the fact that the video and audio were confirmed to be him and his voice.

Of course, by the very sources that need it to be him.

5) Oh, he simply didn't confess at all? Convenient.

He denied involvement. http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/inv.binladen.denial/
There still has been no hard evidence issued, the Taliban offered to hand him over if evidence was provided. If they wanted him caught, don't you think they would have given the evidence over? Why would they withold that? Unless of course, they didn't want him caught? Because they needed the bogey man to pursue their goals?

6) What connections? The $1.4 Billion that's been claimed by Moore and the House of Bush, House of Saud book? Big problem with that, it's alleged that 90% of this came from the Saudi Government awarding a $1.18bil contract to a U.S. Defense contractor, BDM. The supposed connection comes from the fact that BDM was owned by the Carlyle group. Except that H.W. Bush didn't join the Carlyle board of directors until after BDM was sold off by Carlyle.

The connections go back much further, and reportedly the families have 2 decades of business behind them. This is a crappy page I know, but for both parties to have been involved in BCCI their relationship goes back at least to the early 90s: http://lundissimo.info/wtc/bushbinladen.html

I'll deal with more on Carlyle as I have time.... but thanks again for info so far.
 
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