ZeitGeist II - Please watch

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edgray

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Exactly, people are so narrow-minded they refuse to believe in something that goes against them. They think that because something is against them, that that opposing side is wrong.
People keep calling it shit and mocking it, because the people who caused it aren't gunna be around to witness the effects of it, bloody dumb.

the funniest thing is that it's nothing to do with beliefs, it's just a record of what's been happening to the world since the 1950s...

Seeing as none have watched it, and none are willing to watch it, I think the debate section should be closed until further notice - all the petty squabbles in their about liberal vs conservative and all that BS is utterly pointless.
 
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KimmyCharmeleon

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the funniest thing is that it's nothing to do with beliefs, it's just a record of what's been happening to the world since the 1950s...

Seeing as none have watched it, and none are willing to watch it, I think the debate section should be closed until further notice - all the petty squabbles in their about liberal vs conservative and all that BS is utterly pointless.

They haven't been taught to argue or critically think properly. It's a skill, and I'm learning it in psychology right now, guess it comes easier to some than others...
 

darkangel

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ed said:
, I think the debate section should be closed until further notice - all the petty squabbles in their about liberal vs conservative and all that BS is utterly pointless.
If you don't like it nobody says you have to post in it or read it for that matter .:) To close it down would result in losing members and no forum wants to lose its prominent members...And thats the political Forum that you're talking about not the debate/phylosphy/news...Anything political is going to be heated...;)
 

edgray

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If you don't like it nobody says you have to post in it or read it for that matter .:) To close it down would result in losing members and no forum wants to lose its prominent members...And thats the political Forum that you're talking about not the debate/phylosphy/news...Anything political is going to be heated...;)

I don't really mean that seriously, just trying to highlight that all of the problems we face today cannot be solved by arguing between left & right, liberal vs conservative (which tends to be how the debates go...) as both ignore the causes of all the problems.
 

retro

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But then I guess, people really don't like realising they're slaves to a system of debt and corruption.

That's your view anyway. You're basically saying that you and this video are telling the truth, and everybody else is wrong. Honestly, your attitude in this thread has put me off to even wanting to bother watching the preview video, let alone the whole thing.

edit: from what I read on the website, it seemed like the basic gist was that monetary systems are bad and we should all be utopian communists :p
 
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retro

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They haven't been taught to argue or critically think properly. It's a skill, and I'm learning it in psychology right now, guess it comes easier to some than others...

No offense, but all I seem to see from you is going around parroting and agreeing with what Ed says
 

retro

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the funniest thing is that it's nothing to do with beliefs, it's just a record of what's been happening to the world since the 1950s...

Seeing as none have watched it, and none are willing to watch it, I think the debate section should be closed until further notice - all the petty squabbles in their about liberal vs conservative and all that BS is utterly pointless.

It should be closed because people don't want to waste their time watching what looks to be a fringe video about what looks to be a fringe viewpoint? Are you advocating one single solitary viewpoint on the world Ed? Because people don't agree with you, they shouldn't be allowed to discuss things?
 
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KimmyCharmeleon

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No offense, but all I seem to see from you is going around parroting and agreeing with what Ed says

Well obviously, I have watched the film and I agree with him and the video.
It's just like how everyone else against us seems to gang up on us hey, everyone else seems to be against us.
Tell them to stop parroting each other too? I mean they all have the same viewpoint too right?

And I don't believe I parrot, everyone just hates the fact I just said something smart...have a bloody whinge...
 

retro

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Well obviously, I have watched the film and I agree with him and the video.
It's just like how everyone else against us seems to gang up on us hey, everyone else seems to be against us.
Tell them to stop parroting each other too? I mean they all have the same viewpoint too right?

And I don't believe I parrot, everyone just hates the fact I just said something smart...have a bloody whinge...

Against who? You and Ed? I wasn't aware that there was an "us" (you and him) in that regard, I'm just commenting on what I've seen. You agree with almost every single thing he has to say. Just calling things the way that I see them. But that's neither here nor there and irrelevant to the point other than I found it amusing that you were accusing other people of not having brains of their own or the ability to think critically.
 

KimmyCharmeleon

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Against who? You and Ed? I wasn't aware that there was an "us" (you and him) in that regard, I'm just commenting on what I've seen. You agree with almost every single thing he has to say. Just calling things the way that I see them. But that's neither here nor there and irrelevant to the point other than I found it amusing that you were accusing other people of not having brains of their own or the ability to think critically.

Well that's what it feels like...

Critical thinking in this context is more to do with judging a source of information after actually watching it...people just judge it on preconceived ideas or other people and their preconceived ideas. How are you supposed to get a proper interpretation of it when you view Reader's Digest version - that's Reader's Digest's interpretation, not their own.

I didn't say anything that was the same as Ed. I agreed, but added on to it. Thanks.
 

retro

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I wouldn't be so arrogant as to think that people are "for" or "against" the two of you. I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of people (such as myself) don't give a shit.
 

edgray

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That's your view anyway. You're basically saying that you and this video are telling the truth, and everybody else is wrong. Honestly, your attitude in this thread has put me off to even wanting to bother watching the preview video, let alone the whole thing.

edit: from what I read on the website, it seemed like the basic gist was that monetary systems are bad and we should all be utopian communists :p

The point is that all the film is really doing is showing things as they are, explaining the nature of the societies and world we live in. I've been looking for holes, and so far only really have one niggling point which I'm going to look into today.

If you understand how the fractional reserve banking system works then I'm sure you'd be in favour of moving away from our current monetary system too. And that's one of the strongest points of the video.

Also, it's pointed out that Communism, and Socialism suffer exactly the same, as they too are societies based on a fictional money system. This is about moving beyond the petty politics that have held us back in the past.

It should be closed because people don't want to waste their time watching what looks to be a fringe video about what looks to be a fringe viewpoint? Are you advocating one single solitary viewpoint on the world Ed? Because people don't agree with you, they shouldn't be allowed to discuss things?

The thing about the debate thread is that arguing the whole lib vs conservative thing is redundant. Both perpetuate all of the problems we face, neither acknowledge the problems nor offer any solutions to them.

That doesn't mean things shouldn't be discussed, far from it. But without understanding a couple of things, the debates are pointless.

The video points out 2 truths about the universe in which we live. The first one, is the emergent nature of the universe. Our understanding of the universe, if uninhibited, will grow and change over time. So with that in mind, as our knowledge grows, so should we. All previous notions of truths should be cast aside as new information and understanding present themselves. The second truth, is the symbiotic nature of the universe and our planet. We are not separate from nature, what we do effects it and without it we're history.

With both of those in mind, we need to let go of our notions of who we think we are and what we've been told is best, and actually start to think about things rather than just maintaining the status quo and our archaic institutions. And whatever we decide, it should directly be tied to the intelligent management of the Earth's resources and the Earth's carrying capacity. Without those two considerations, war, poverty, crime, suffering, scarcity, social stratification and environmental destruction are guaranteed.

The viewpoint that I have is that the way we currently organise ourselves is pretty dumb. We have small concentrations of power, political and corporate, that are inherently corrupt, that has lead to countries being enslaved by debts. Poverty is increasing due to this, and the rich are getting richer whilst the majority of people on this planet struggle as wage-slaves to make ends meet.

I'd really like everyone to watch the video because I'd like to be able to discuss it, analyse it with others to fully understand the implications of what it says, pick holes where they can be found and contribute if possible. I've a few friends over here that have watched it, and talking it over with them has been interesting. We've got a couple of liberals and a couple of conservatives who have watched it and agree with the majority of points on there, and it really makes for some interesting ideas with regards to our organisation.
 

Accountable

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I simply don't have the time to watch the vid. There's one point in your post that begs a question, though, Ed, and I apologize for setting you up to defend the vid.

You said, or I inferred that you said, the vid advocates moving away from the current monetary system. Do you mean the wave a magic pen and more money appears, government commands the economy, we ain't broke because we still have paper & ink, fiat monetary system? If so I'm all for it and have said so before, but what does the vid suggest we move toward?
 

Accountable

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They haven't been taught to argue or critically think properly. It's a skill, and I'm learning it in psychology right now, guess it comes easier to some than others...
Can you point out a couple of specifics in the vid to peak my interest, please? Maybe a fresher perspective can convince me to risk the wrath of my beloved.
 

edgray

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I simply don't have the time to watch the vid. There's one point in your post that begs a question, though, Ed, and I apologize for setting you up to defend the vid.

You said, or I inferred that you said, the vid advocates moving away from the current monetary system. Do you mean the wave a magic pen and more money appears, government commands the economy, we ain't broke because we still have paper & ink, fiat monetary system? If so I'm all for it and have said so before, but what does the vid suggest we move toward?

No problem.

yes that's pretty much it exactly. the system we currently have is out of our hands and doesn't benefit the people, in fact, it has failures like poverty built right in to it.

the solution proposed in the film (which is just one of an endless stream of possible solutions) is to have a resource based economy. This would cut out the middle man from the following equation:

man + money = resources.

The money part, being removed, gives people direct access to the resources.

Personally I could never see anything like this happen but in small incremental steps. Following the libertarian route would be a great starting phase: removing the federal reserve and govt intervention in the money supply.

The film has an interesting little mention of the Green Back, something I'd never heard of before other than in cultural references. I think the spirit of the film can be summed up by the spirit of the Green Back.
 

Accountable

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Resource, or commodity? The gold standard is a commodity-based system. My brain sees resource-based as almost equaling barter.
 

edgray

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Resource, or commodity? The gold standard is a commodity-based system. My brain sees resource-based as almost equaling barter.

No it's definitely not barter. The Venus Project is where the idea originated:

The Venus Project said:
The term and meaning of a Resource-Based Economy was originated by Jacque Fresco. It is a system in which all goods and services are available without the use of money, credits, barter or any other system of debt or servitude. All resources become the common heritage of all of the inhabitants, not just a select few. The premise upon which this system is based is that the Earth is abundant with plentiful resource; our practice of rationing resources through monetary methods is irrelevant and counter productive to our survival.

http://www.thevenusproject.com/a-new-social-design/resource-based-economy

but it's not exclusively their idea:

Resource Based Economy Foundation said:
What we do: changing the world
RBEF's vision is to research, design and initiate a new sustainable global socio-economic system and coordinate the transition from the current monetary market based economy to that new system.

http://www.rbefoundation.com/

Basically it works on the premise that all humans on the planet are born with an equal right to the Earth's resources. And with no money restrictions or profit restrictions, the resources can be managed in a way that makes an abundant society for everyone.
 

Accountable

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No it's definitely not barter. The Venus Project is where the idea originated:

http://www.thevenusproject.com/a-new-social-design/resource-based-economy

but it's not exclusively their idea:

http://www.rbefoundation.com/

Basically it works on the premise that all humans on the planet are born with an equal right to the Earth's resources. And with no money restrictions or profit restrictions, the resources can be managed in a way that makes an abundant society for everyone.
I gotta run, but this looks like a well-worn path for you & me. Everyone has equal right to all resources? So no ownership? I need shoes so I have as much right to your last pair as you? How about intellectual resources, meaning ideas? I have a pretty decent imagination; do you have the same right to it as I?
 

edgray

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I gotta run, but this looks like a well-worn path for you & me. Everyone has equal right to all resources? So no ownership? I need shoes so I have as much right to your last pair as you? How about intellectual resources, meaning ideas? I have a pretty decent imagination; do you have the same right to it as I?

Firstly we need to abandon the artificial scarcity we endure at the moment. In a resource based economy, resources would be directly accessible, meaning that there wouldn't be any scarcity, so no competition for items available.

As for intellectual resources, sharing your intellectual resources would improve your life, so there would be no need to horde them. Also, all knowledge is founded on the knowledge acquired previously, so it doesn't just belong to you.

This is one of the big problems of today, and something scientists are constantly fighting against, and that's patents and so forth. These are only necessary in a monetary system, to protect the owner from exploitation. That problem wouldn't occur in a resource based economy.
 
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