You're No Hero

[darkangel]

 

[Goat Whisperer]

We spend a shit load of money on trying to prevent what can not be prevented. That money would be far better spent on better education and rehabilitation.

Too bad NO ONE would have any motivation to be rehabilitated.

 

[Tangerine]

Too bad NO ONE would have any motivation to be rehabilitated.

How do you arrive at that conclusion? LOTS of addicts don't want to be addicts.

 

[Alien Allen]

Too bad NO ONE would have any motivation to be rehabilitated.

Well the current system is doing a bang up job isn't it :24:

 

[Goat Whisperer]

By "Crime rates" I assume you mean crimes like theft and robbery commited by people attempting to get money to support their drug habit. First, legallized and regulated drugs would be far less expensive than the current black market.

An addicted person only wants to get the next score. Even if it's less expensive, they will not be willing to work to buy it (due to drugs, from either detox or just the general effects of drugs (relaxing, tiring, making crazy). Therefore they will continue to commit theft. And more people would be addicted due to less punishment if they use and the fact that they will all drop out of rehabilitation programs. And rehabilitation programs would collapse (plenty of jobs lost there).

But second, and most importantly, the use, manufacture and distribution of drugs is all currently "crime." The occurance of THAT crime VASTLY outnumbers the "crime" you speak of. So as a whole, "crime" would be reduced exponentially by legalizing drugs.

The crime I speak of will greatly increase, for the same reasons I stated, more new addicts, and old addicts not finishing rehabilitation programs, because of no threat of prison. And non-violent crimes, such as possession of drugs with the intent to use (not sale) should only go to prison for repeat offenses and if they refuse or are kicked out of a second chance drug rehabilitation program. That can change, greatly decreasing that crime rate and possibly increasing the amount of rehabilitation.

 

[Goat Whisperer]

Well the current system is doing a bang up job isn't it :24:

I didn't say our current system is good. I am just saying this idea is bad, and much worse then our current one.

 

[Goat Whisperer]

How do you arrive at that conclusion? LOTS of addicts don't want to be addicts.

Because they are still addicted to drugs, no matter how much they hate them. I have known hundreds of drug addicts, and so many of them wouldn't be where they are today, amazing intellectual, assets to society, if they hadn't had the threat of prison hanging over there heads when they joined a rehabilitation center.

I have also known hundreds of them that were doing great and relapsed or went back to prison, and many of them died. It's awful but legalizing this will make the problem worse.

 

[Alien Allen]

Prison is loaded with addicts so your premise that prison keeps people off drugs is loony.

Prison is no place to clean up people. Never was nor will it be capable. It is the LAST place to send an addict.

 

[Goat Whisperer]

They don't gain self motivation to quit until months or even years into a rehabilitation center. They wouldn't have spent those months or years gaining this motivation without the threat of prison.

 

[Goat Whisperer]

Prison is loaded with addicts so your premise that prison keeps people off drugs is loony.

Prison is no place to clean up people. Never was nor will it be capable. It is the LAST place to send an addict.

Apparently it does work, as 90% of the people there, are only there because they don't want to go to prison.

 

[Tangerine]

An addicted person only wants to get the next score. Even if it's less expensive, they will not be willing to work to buy it (due to drugs, from either detox or just the general effects of drugs (relaxing, tiring, making crazy). Therefore they will continue to commit theft. And more people would be addicted due to less punishment if they use and the fact that they will all drop out of rehabilitation programs. And rehabilitation programs would collapse (plenty of jobs lost there).



The crime I speak of will greatly increase, for the same reasons I stated, more new addicts, and old addicts not finishing rehabilitation programs, because of no threat of prison. And non-violent crimes, such as possession of drugs with the intent to use (not sale) should only go to prison for repeat offenses and if they refuse or are kicked out of a second chance drug rehabilitation program. That can change, greatly decreasing that crime rate and possibly increasing the amount of rehabilitation.

Everything in your argument is based on the idea that the threat of arrest or jail is a deterrent (or even the ONLY deterrent) for people from using drugs. There is absolutely no evidence to support that. In fact, the current drug use rates DESPITE our multi-billion-dollar "War On Drugs" is evidence of exactly the opposite.

The reality is that most people use drugs because the simply don't know better or don't have better options in their lives. I firmly believe that by educating kids better, and by putting our resources into the communities most infested with drug abuse, we could noticably reduce the use of drugs - legal or no.

You also have to factor in the "social" aspect in poverty-riddled communities. The drug trade is commonly the ONLY source of money, power, repect and credibility. By taking the drug trade off the streets, you eliminate the "role model" aspect of rich powerful drug gang thugs on the youth in those areas. Over time, the glamour appeal would fade and fewer and fewer young people would fall into the vicious cycle of drugs and drug dealing.

 

[Alien Allen]

They don't gain self motivation to quit until months or even years into a rehabilitation center. They wouldn't have spent those months or years gaining this motivation without the threat of prison.

There is nothing to support this.

 

[Goat Whisperer]

Everything in your argument is based on the idea that the threat of arrest or jail is a deterrent (or even the ONLY deterrent) for people from using drugs. There is absolutely no evidence to support that. In fact, the current drug use rates DESPITE and multi-billion-dollar "War On Drugs" is evidence of exactly the opposite.

It is a deterrent, not for using drugs in the first place, but for quitting rehabilitation. And there is evidence. About 90% of people who are at her work gaining rehabilitation, are ONLY there because otherwise they would be put back into prison. And drug use rates are increasing only because our current system doesn't work and because population continues to increase. But this 'solution' will only make the problem worse.

The reality is that most people use drugs because the simply don't know better or don't have better options in their lives. I firmly believe that buy educating kids better, and but putting our resources into the communities most infested with drug abuse, we could noticably reduce the use of drugs - legal or no.

Not really. The main reason why most people start using is peer pressure, and the feeling to belong. They don't have a center of locus to control, so they need someone else on the outside telling them what there self value is. If you don't belive me, ask any x-drug addict why they started, the majority will say 'peer pressure.'

You also have to factor in the "social" aspect in poverty-riddled communities. The drug trade is commonly the ONLY source of money, power, repect and credibility. By taking the drug trade off the streets, you eliminate the "role model" aspect of rich powerful drug gang thugs on the youth in those areas. Over time, the glamour appeal would fade and fewer and fewer young people would fall into the vicious cycle of drugs and drug dealing.

True, but just as many will get addicted due to low self-esteem and peer pressure. And that problem will get just as worse.

That's why we fight drugs, we fight 'drug lords' and put them in prison so there are no role models for kids to follow. But by destroying them with lowering the 'drug trade' economy, will just create a hypocrisy in our government

"The government used to say it was bad for me to start using drugs, but now they control and sale them, so obviously they never were." *takes first hit of meth and is addicted*

 

[Goat Whisperer]

There is nothing to support this.

You haven't worked with drug addicts so you don't know what your talking about. ASK THEM AND THEY WILL TELL YOU WHY THEY STARTED, WHAT KEPT THEM IN THE REHABILITATION CENTER, AND WHY THEY ARE NO LONGER ADDICTED.

The majority will say "Peer pressure from friends, didn't want to go back to prison, because I stayed in the rehabilitation, and graduated with enough self-worth to say 'no'"

 

[Alien Allen]

The threat of prison clearly has not been any deterrent for the majority of addicts. And those you mentioned who were forced into rehab are the highest rate of failures.

I don't need to work in a reahb to see the utter failure the current war of drugs has been. The landscape is strewn with dead bodies, spaced out junkies and poor kids acting as drug courriers. This is what the current system has allowed to happen.

I don't get how anybody can support what is an utter failure. It is neanderthal thinking to keep doing the same damn thing over and over and ignoring the obvious.

 

[Tangerine]

Sorry Bri. but your anaecdotal "evidence" of second-person knowledge of one rehab clinic is not an example of the reality of drug abuse in this country.

I have far more experience with drug users and people in and out of rehab. I don't believe for one second that "peer pressure" is the leading cause of drug addiction. MAYBE in a mostly white, middle-class suburban neighborhood, but not in the inner city of places like LA, Philly, Baltimore, or Atlanta.

There simply is no real evidence to support the idea of prison as a deterrence for drug use. The evidence is strongly to the contrary. Our prisons are FULL of drug crime offenders and drug usage is as high as it's ever been.

 

[Goat Whisperer]

The threat of prison clearly has not been any deterrent for the majority of addicts. And those you mentioned who were forced into rehab are the highest rate of failures.

I don't need to work in a reahb to see the utter failure the current war of drugs has been. The landscape is strewn with dead bodies, spaced out junkies and poor kids acting as drug courriers. This is what the current system has allowed to happen.

I don't get how anybody can support what is an utter failure. It is neanderthal thinking to keep doing the same damn thing over and over and ignoring the obvious.

I didn't say I supported the current system. But they only reason why the majority of people are rehabilitated is because of it. And this cod-awful plan would completely destroy that.

The system is broken and this plan will certainly not make it better, just worse.

 

[Goat Whisperer]

Sorry Bri. but your anaecdotal "evidence" of second-person knowledge of one rehab clinic is not an example of the reality of drug abuse in this country.

I have far more experience with drug users and people in and out of rehab. I don't believe for one second that "peer pressure" is the leading cause of drug addiction. MAYBE in a mostly white, middle-class suburban neighborhood, but not in the inner city of places like LA, Philly, Baltimore, or Atlanta.

There simply is no real evidence to support the idea of prison as a deterrence for drug use. The evidence is strongly to the contrary. Our prisons are FULL of drug crime offenders and drug usage is as high as it's ever been.

Legalizing drugs completely will make the prisons a little less full and help our economy, but help drug addicts or keep new ones from being created? Not at all.

 

[Tangerine]

Legalizing drugs completely will make the prisons a little less full and help our economy, but help drug addicts or keep new ones from being created? Not at all.

A "little less full"? You should look up the stats as to what percentage of people incarcerated are there for drug crimes. Five years ago it was over 50% of federal inmates and over 30% of state and local-level inmates. That's is millions and millions of people. It's even higher today.

 

[Tangerine]

Legalizing drugs completely will make the prisons a little less full and help our economy, but help drug addicts or keep new ones from being created? Not at all.

I find it hard to believe that having billions of dollars freed up would not allow us to make SOME progress in the areas of rehab and prevention. If neither of these things were useful, why do we do them at all?