Why do you have to believe in fantasy to believe in God?

[itsmeJonB]

What makes modern religion more acceptable than greek mythology? They had gods, many, that in that time they worshipped, but insttead of being taught as religion its now literature. Much better written than the bible, I may add

 

[Panacea]

What makes modern religion more acceptable than greek mythology? They had gods, many, that in that time they worshipped, but insttead of being taught as religion its now literature. Much better written than the bible, I may add

HA! Greek mythology is clearly MADE UP, Wyndex! :sarcasm

 

[Diggin Deep]

Quite simply, no. Your "if a, then b" argument makes too grand a leap in assumption to be valid. What about life's existence makes a higher power's involvement in its inception more likely than that of a "lower power"?

Let's look:

We know that complex things are often built from simpler things, which would support the idea that life came from a "lower power", if you will, a possibly fallible entity. This isn't good logic, because we do not have evidence this is the case.

The watchmaker's argument would counter that those complex things (watch) built from simpler things (watch parts) are built by a higher power, being a human...therefore god. Well, humans are built as well, from other humans...which nullifies that argument's bad logic as well. We do not currently have any evidence of this.

As Wyndex said, life itself is only proof of life itself.

I completely understand your position on this topic. Especially considering I once held to nearly every non-belief of God and His existence. That is why I am able to remain objective and am able to accept that my belief could be entirely wrong.

I respect your view and know exactly where you are coming from. In the grand scheme of things, I'm not in any way trying to prove you wrong or me right - just another side. It's just my belief due to the years of spiritual warfare I've fought.

I for one am just unable to look at life as just life. I made a personal decision to think outside of the box and search for answers to my personal questions to prove the non-existence of God. I do believe that there is creator of all that is around me, and my belief is that the creator is God. It may be in fact just a fantasy and a creation of man because of his need of a father. It is a risk that I'm happy to take.

 

[Panacea]

I completely understand your position on this topic. Especially considering I once held to nearly every non-belief of God and His existence. That is why I am able to remain objective and am able to accept that my belief could be entirely wrong.

I respect your view and know exactly where you are coming from. In the grand scheme of things, I'm not in any way trying to prove you wrong or me right - just another side. It's just my belief due to the years of spiritual warfare I've fought.

I for one am just unable to look at life as just life. I made a personal decision to think outside of the box and search for answers to my personal questions to prove the non-existence of God. I do believe that there is creator of all that is around me, and my belief is that the creator is God. It may be in fact just a fantasy and a creation of man because of his need of a father. It is a risk that I'm happy to take.

I appreciate the non-heated discussion, it is typically quite difficult to have these conversations on forums without erupting into a capslock war :surrender

Interestingly enough, they say (meaning slightly biased social scientists hehe) atheists tend to be people with bad parental figures railing against "the father", which I can relate to half of (my parents are horrible people) so it's all about socialization and what we perceive.

 

[itsmeJonB]

If I weren't on my phone and if this site had a chat room again I would love to debate you in real time because your long winded responses don't only talk in circles but if there was someone on the fence about atheism and chrsitianity I find it hard to believe they'd be swayed by your points

 

[itsmeJonB]

I appreciate the non-heated discussion, it is typically quite difficult to have these conversations on forums without erupting into a capslock war :surrender

Interestingly enough, they say (meaning slightly biased social scientists hehe) atheists tend to be people with bad parental figures railing against "the father", which I can relate to half of (my parents are horrible people) so it's all about socialization and what we perceive.

I have great parents if there was a heaven they'll go there, doesn't change my beliefs though

 

[Panacea]

I have great parents if there was a heaven they'll go there, doesn't change my beliefs though

My boyfriend has good parents, too, and he's an atheist, the claim is total bullshit. I hate my parents but I am not an atheist because of that, I am an atheist because I don't have a tendency toward magical thinking, and I support Occam's razor/null hypothesis guided exploration of the world.

 

[Diggin Deep]

If I weren't on my phone and if this site had a chat room again I would love to debate you in real time because your long winded responses don't only talk in circles but if there was someone on the fence about atheism and chrsitianity I find it hard to believe they'd be swayed by your points

Long winded circles??? I'm sorry that I have come across that way. How am I talking in circles? - because I understand and am able to see both sides of the debate? Because I respect views that may not agree with my own? I'm not trying to sway anyone. We all choose what we want to believe. What people take from anything I or anyone else says regarding religion in these threads is up to the individual. When I say I could be wrong - I mean it. People can find out on their own - I am by no means a professional in terms of Christianity. I am just merely trying to offer another side to religion than what seems to be the "norm" in the religion forum.

 

[itsmeJonB]

Long winded circles??? I'm sorry that I have come across that way. How am I talking in circles? - because I understand and am able to see both sides of the debate? Because I respect views that may not agree with my own? I'm not trying to sway anyone. We all choose what we want to believe. What people take from anything I or anyone else says regarding religion in these threads is up to the individual. When I say I could be wrong - I mean it. People can find out on their own - I am by no means a professional in terms of Christianity. I am just merely trying to offer another side to religion than what seems to be the "norm" in the religion forum.

I apologize for that wording but one sided debating is frustrating

 

[Panacea]

It's incredibly difficult to debate science versus faith, because one demands evidence and the other cannot produce evidence. There is no reconciliation.

I've always liked the PZ Myers reference to Calvinball, claiming religion makes up the rules as it goes along, therefore never being falsifiable...I also adore this video in terms of supernatural thinking/religion:

 

[Diggin Deep]

I apologize for that wording but one sided debating is frustrating

No harm taken Wyndex. :surrender I completely agree with your you - one sided debating is frustrating. That is why I decided to open up and talk about religion on this forum. The "norm" in which I referred to is the negative views about Christianity and it's believers and how anyone in their right mind could every believe in God - mainly the O.T. God. So many people completely throw out the N.T. God and if you try to defend it...well you are just someone who used God as a crutch and believe in fantasies.

It's not a matter of who is right or who is wrong. Everyone can believe the way they choose. I guess I just want to know why believing in the Bible God as opposed to another belief or non-belief is so wrong. Give me evidence of why I shouldn't believe, that God doesn't exist, before you ask me why I believe and moch me for believing - (this is in no way directed to you personally - just in general).

If I have personally offended you or anyone for that matter (believers and non-believers) by what I have said - I sincerely do apologize.

 

[Panacea]

I guess I just want to know why believing in the Bible God as opposed to another belief or non-belief is so wrong.

I find the relationship between modern-day "Bible God" worshipers and reality rather frustrating...some believe the bible is the word of god directly, others believe it is the word of man as told to man by god, others believe it is a cultural guide book for doing good on earth to get to heaven, etc...the holy books of the monotheisms are sort of awful in my opinion...some things are sweet and nice for humanity, and should be promoted, but a whole lot of it (NT and OT alike) is just...fucked up, and I can't quite wrap my head around how people can know this about the bible, but still cling to the god in its pages.

I regret not quoting directly, for it damages my credibility, but I don't have the time now.

Some other beliefs (Jains, for instance) and non-beliefs also tend to carry less of a violent, hateful history. This point is often a panty-twister, but I truly believe this. I don't like what has come from the monotheisms. This doesn't mean followers are better or worse or anything...I just couldn't, in good conscience, align myself with what the bible preaches as a whole, and I am sometimes shocked by good people who do.

Give me evidence of why I shouldn't believe, that God doesn't exist, before you ask me why I believe and moch me for believing - (this is in no way directed to you personally - just in general).

The burden on proof is always, always on someone making a positive claim. It is not up to me to disprove someone else's imagined being, especially when that being is unfalsifiable.

My best evidence for why someone shouldn't believe in god is simply because there is no valid evidence that there is any god in which to believe.

 

[Tuffdisc]

GIA, I wish you would go back to politics

 

[Greatest I am]

Haha well, French people know enough, I am sure.
I see no need for god at all, but I am in favor of people taking action to live a good life, and be kind, etc.

I also see a difference between hope and faith, as well as a different between faith and religious faith. A hope is a wish, to me...something I want or need...a turn of events I would like to see happen. Faith is that silent security, trust that worldly events will typically go as they always have (I have faith the floor won't open up into a volcano right now) or people will act as I suspect they might (my boyfriend is not a serial killer). We can be proven wrong with either hope or faith. Religious faith seems like something socialized that can never be proven wrong, and simply is, and always will be, whether we choose to accept it or not.

You are right and that is why martin Luther said that logic and reason were anathema to faith.

Regards
DL

 

[BornReady]

Give me convincing arguments that God doesn't exist before you ask why I'd believe in such a fantasy.

You don't really think that is a good way to decide what to believe do you?

I just realized the wording of my question sheds some light on belief. People don't decide what to believe. They usually believe what ever they're taught by the people they trust. That's why kids believe in Santa Claus.

 

[Tim]

You don't really think that is a good way to decide what to believe do you?

I just realized the wording of my question sheds some light on belief. People don't decide what to believe. They usually believe what ever they're taught by the people they trust. That's why kids believe in Santa Claus.

I've been preaching this point for years.

Our beliefs are derived from our culture and upbringing. This conversation would be completely different if it were taking place in a different country/culture. How does that instill confidence in our beliefs?

 

[Diggin Deep]

You don't really think that is a good way to decide what to believe do you?

I just realized the wording of my question sheds some light on belief. People don't decide what to believe. They usually believe what ever they're taught by the people they trust. That's why kids believe in Santa Claus.

The question that I originally posed to GIM was meant like this: If you are going to claim that the Bible God doesn't exist and to believe in Him is equivalent to believing in fantasies and fairy tales, then convince me that He doesn't exist and why. It's easy to say that He doesn't exist and that everything regarding the Bible is false, but it's hard to prove it wrong. Why? Because we can't - our defense for or against His existence is based on opinion, belief, personal experiences and blind faith.

It is true that when I first came to God, it was because of friends and the pastor at our church. It was the in thing, but I can honestly say I felt something that I had never felt before. I felt called to ministry and so on and so on. What I found is that while yes I believed, I didn't really know why. My relationship with God was based soley on the emotion - a shifting sand at best. The emotion began to fade and the people who I looked up to had gone their own ways. While at a bible college, the God that I learned about became a God that I wasn't sure if really wanted to serve - for the same reasons that many of you pose. I tried to stick it out, but my foundation was shaky and eventually I walked away from it all. I made a choice to not believe based on what I had learned and realized that it no longer agreed with the life style I wanted to live.

Over the years, I constantly felt a spiritual warfare within my heart. It felt as if I there was something missing - a void that I had created. While searching for reasons not to believe in God, I ended up believing in Him and actually knowing why. The foundation of my belief in Him is stronger than I ever imagined it could be. And this time...it had nothing to do with church, friends or family, or emotion.

Ultimately, it's my choice to believe in God. It's up to the individual to decide whether to believe or not believe. It's up to the individual to decide what to put that belief in. People can influence our decision, but they can't make our mind up for us. "You can lead a horse to water, but you can make it drink" or something like that. I can defend God all day, quote scripture, explain other beliefs and how they differ from Christianity - but at the end of the day...it's up to you, no one else.

 

[Diggin Deep]

I've been preaching this point for years.

Our beliefs are derived from our culture and upbringing. This conversation would be completely different if it were taking place in a different country/culture. How does that instill confidence in our beliefs?

"You only believe in Christianity because you were raised in Western culture." This remark misses the real issue. It may be true that my culture has influenced my beliefs, but this fact cannot make those beliefs themselves true or false. First, establish that the religious views of Western culture are wrong, then ask why so many would be inclined to believe them. Cultural factors can be significant, but only as they touch the motive of my belief, not its truthfulness.

Once in a while it is helpful to look at psychological motivation, but only in special situations. Sometimes a thing is believed to be true simply because it's widely held. Lots of people believe it, so it must be true - or reject it as unpopular, so it must be false.

Certain appeals to general consensus have merit. There may be universal truths that everyone seems to be directly aware of, a collective wisdom reflected in popular beliefs. Usually, though, it's fair to ask if there is some other explanation for the agreement.

Here the psychological angle does some work, offering an alternate explanation why widely held views might receive popular support. Once again, though, this only identifies the range of possible explanations, inviting us to consider other alternatives. More work needs to be done before a conclusion can be drawn.

 

[BornReady]

The question that I originally posed to GIM was meant like this: If you are going to claim that the Bible God doesn't exist and to believe in Him is equivalent to believing in fantasies and fairy tales, then convince me that He doesn't exist and why. It's easy to say that He doesn't exist and that everything regarding the Bible is false, but it's hard to prove it wrong. Why? Because we can't - our defense for or against His existence is based on opinion, belief, personal experiences and blind faith.

I agree. GIA can't prove the talking animals in the bible are myth. But you can't prove the talking animals in fairy tales are fiction either. It's seems to me the most reasonable approach is not to believe in talking animals until someone offers some evidence they can talk. Short of a parrot, I haven't seen any.

 

[Greatest I am]

I agree. GIA can't prove the talking animals in the bible are myth. But you can't prove the talking animals in fairy tales are fiction either. It's seems to me the most reasonable approach is not to believe in talking animals until someone offers some evidence they can talk. Short of a parrot, I haven't seen any.

And how much of the Bible has to be proven wrong before the whole is not believed.

Diggin Deep

Is this enough?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2569440864215926514#

BTW. Have you found a way to view those vids?

This one is of Professor Hector Avalos
Archeology killed Biblical History

This next is to give Borne Ready a good chuckle. I hope you can view it as well some time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ9sJVJMiYM

Regards
DL