Why do you believe in God?

[luc154]

See, this is where you contradict yourself. You claim your god is all powerful and can do anything so if that is the case, surely he can change the rules so that a holy person dosent need to die for others.

God is almighty and omnipotent but cannot do everything in that sence that He cannot work against His nature. He cannot lie, He cannot deceive, otherwise He would not be holy.
If God would close His eyes for the sin of depraved man, then He would be an unjust judge since sin would go unpunished. Just like a judge would release a murderer out of court so that he can be a nice judge.
Because God is just and holy He must punish sin and He will. But He will not hold those who believe Christ died for their sins accountable. Of those who don't, God will ask payment which they can't pay by themselves.

 

[pladecalvo]

All interesting statements...With a fatal flaw.

When we suffer consequences.....Is it because we did something knowing there were consequences attatched?

Let me make it easier:

I am going to steal this candy bar because I do not wish to pay for it.

Consequence: Shoplifting charge and perhaps a day or two in the pokey.

Guilty party: Myself? God?

..but that isn't how it's happening is it. Let's change the analogy and look at it from the Christian perspective of punishment for the sins of Adam and Eve...which is what we are talking about.

My friend stole a candy bar because he didn't want to pay for it.
Consequences: I got the blame for it and was made to suffer because of what he did.
Guilty party: Me or my friend.

To me it's ironic, that's all.....I am not even sure how you can debate something that doesn't exist in your opinion.

Quite easily. Have you never been a member of a 'debating society'?

Are you illiterate?

Obviously not...otherwise I wouldn't be able to write any responses would I.....and it's never very long before you get a Christian resorting to ad hominem attacks.

 

[FreeWorkVest]

..but that isn't how it's happening is it. Let's change the analogy and look at it from the Christian perspective of punishment for the sins of Adam and Eve...which is what we are talking about.

My friend stole a candy bar because he didn't want to pay for it.
Consequences: I got the blame for it and was made to suffer because of what he did.
Guilty party: Me or my friend.

Quite easily. Have you never been a member of a 'debating society'?

Obviously not...otherwise I wouldn't be able to write any responses would I.....and it's never very long before you get a Christian resorting to ad hominem attacks.

LOL. Yes it was indeed a snide comment directed toward you, and perhaps inappropriate, but the bottom line is you yet again take an opporitunity to ignore the question asked.

The original question was How many different times would you like your question answered? It would be very helpful to have a target number 7? 15? 167? perhaps a prime number? I only know english, so if you would like it annswer in the original Greek or Aramaic, I cannot oblige.


And yes, I am indeed being sarcastic

 

[Minor Axis]

God is almighty and omnipotent but cannot do everything in that sence that He cannot work against His nature. He cannot lie, He cannot deceive, otherwise He would not be holy.
If God would close His eyes for the sin of depraved man, then He would be an unjust judge since sin would go unpunished. Just like a judge would release a murderer out of court so that he can be a nice judge.
Because God is just and holy He must punish sin and He will. But He will not hold those who believe Christ died for their sins accountable. Of those who don't, God will ask payment which they can't pay by themselves.

And how do you know this?

1. You were told by someone religious.
2. Your faith tells you.
3. Other?

How was it determined that an omnipotent being can't lie? The only real problem I have with these statements is please don't try to sell your faith as fact.

 

[luc154]

And how do you know this?

1. You were told by someone religious.
2. Your faith tells you.
3. Other?

How was it determined that an omnipotent being can't lie? The only real problem I have with these statements is please don't try to sell your faith as fact.

I don't sell my faith as fact, I speak what I know out of study of God's Word, prayer, experience and out of God's relationship with me. So for me it is fact after having experienced it.

 

[Minor Axis]

I always find it insteresting that a Christian will claim that they are free from judgement and punishment from God, and an atheist or even an agnostic will swear up and down that we live and die by the firm hand of something/someone that doesn't exist.

No need to bad mouth agnostics. Whatever mechanics we live and die by whether it be science, The Force, or omnipotent beings- it/they/whatever definitely do exist.

 

[Minor Axis]

So for me it is fact after having experienced it.

We experience our lives, colored by our emotions, perceptions, and feelings which in itself does not always meet the standard of fact (link) when it comes to convincing others of absolute truth.

 

[luc154]

We experience our lives, colored by our emotions, perceptions, and feelings which in itself does not always meet the standard of fact (link) when it comes to convincing others of absolute truth.

True, but experiencing the created (life, emotions, perceptions, feelings) is very different from experiencing the Creator. If you experience the Creator you find absolute truth. That is what man was created for, to know His Creator.

 

[pladecalvo]

LOL. Yes it was indeed a snide comment directed toward you, and perhaps inappropriate, but the bottom line is you yet again take an opporitunity to ignore the question asked.

The original question was How many different times would you like your question answered? It would be very helpful to have a target number 7? 15? 167? perhaps a prime number?

It doesn't matter how many times you give an answer to my questions....I am not under any obligation to accept your answer as the ultimate authority on the matter. If I disagree with you I will continue to debate you. That, as you well know, is how it works. Check through the thread and see how many Christians have disagreed with or ignored my answers to them...I don't see you criticising them. I don't demand that Christians accept my answers, why do you demand that I accept yours. Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain why I should accept your answers without question.

 

[BadBoy@TheWheel]

..but that isn't how it's happening is it. Let's change the analogy and look at it from the Christian perspective of punishment for the sins of Adam and Eve...which is what we are talking about.

My friend stole a candy bar because he didn't want to pay for it.
Consequences: I got the blame for it and was made to suffer because of what he did.
Guilty party: Me or my friend.

Quite easily. Have you never been a member of a 'debating society'?

Obviously not...otherwise I wouldn't be able to write any responses would I.....and it's never very long before you get a Christian resorting to ad hominem attacks.

How what is happening? Are we actually being punished because of Adam and Eve? (please see the thread on the Bible being true ot not).

I think the issue is simple, hard times fall on people and they want to say "God did it" or Atheists use the Old Testament God to make him look like some kind of bully.

If you want to put things into proper context, we will assume these things actually happened of course.

God had to command that man did not lay with animals.....And he meant in the sexual sense, now if you are looking at it from a sensible angle, this must have been a period where God possibly had to force his will a little...I mean if you have to command someone to not fuck a sheep, then they were living in much different times.

So simply put, he said "Don't do this" someone did it anyways and rather than putting the blame on themselves for the act, they blame God for the consequences.

It's like when I tell my child "Don't play outside where I can't see you"

He does it anyways because let's face it, he's imperfect. I ground him and he accuses me of being mean.....He broke the rules else there would be no consequences.

Let alone punishig his brother for his actions, that's just rediculous.

MAybe if someone feels as though they are being punished for the sins of someone else they should investigate the possibility that they are doing something wrong as well.....I mean, I don't have any guilt along the lines of what Adam and Eve did.....

Hence, I have NEVER felt as though I was being punishd for the sins of others...Only my own thanks

 

[Peter Parka]

God is almighty and omnipotent but cannot do everything in that sence that He cannot work against His nature. He cannot lie, He cannot deceive, otherwise He would not be holy.
If God would close His eyes for the sin of depraved man, then He would be an unjust judge since sin would go unpunished. Just like a judge would release a murderer out of court so that he can be a nice judge.
Because God is just and holy He must punish sin and He will. But He will not hold those who believe Christ died for their sins accountable. Of those who don't, God will ask payment which they can't pay by themselves.

See this is where we come to an end of debate here. I think killing people for the sins of others is disgusting and wrong and makes your god far from perfect. You on the other hand have this strange idea that this is a good thing.

 

[BadBoy@TheWheel]

No need to bad mouth agnostics. Whatever mechanics we live and die by whether it be science, The Force, or omnipotent beings- it/they/whatever definitely do exist.

I'm not bad mouthing anyone

 

[pladecalvo]

How what is happening? Are we actually being punished because of Adam and Eve?

According to Christian doctrine, yes we are. Man suffers because Adam and Eve disobeyed god and brought sin into the perfect world.

God had to command that man did not lay with animals.....And he meant in the sexual sense, now if you are looking at it from a sensible angle, this must have been a period where God possibly had to force his will a little...I mean if you have to command someone to not fuck a sheep, then they were living in much different times.

So simply put, he said "Don't do this" someone did it anyways and rather than putting the blame on themselves for the act, they blame God for the consequences.

But we need to go back to the beginning. Allegedly, Adam and Eve disobeyed their god. Their god punished them by causing sin....but their god did not just punish them...the perpetrators of the act, he punishes everyone for what Adam and Eve did. That, in any shape or form, is not justice.

It's like when I tell my child "Don't play outside where I can't see you"

He does it anyways because let's face it, he's imperfect. I ground him and he accuses me of being mean.....He broke the rules else there would be no consequences.

Do you punish your child for eternity because of what his brother did? That is the doctrine of Christianity. WE suffer because of the actions of Adam and Eve.

 

[BadBoy@TheWheel]

According to Christian doctrine, yes we are. Man suffers because Adam and Eve disobeyed god and brought sin into the perfect world.



But we need to go back to the beginning. Allegedly, Adam and Eve disobeyed their god. Their god punished them by causing sin....but their god did not just punish them...the perpetrators of the act, he punishes everyone for what Adam and Eve did. That, in any shape or form, is not justice.

Do you punish your child for eternity because of what his brother did? That is the doctrine of Christianity. WE suffer because of the actions of Adam and Eve.

I think you have been Jerry Falwell'ed

 

[luc154]

See this is where we come to an end of debate here. I think killing people for the sins of others is disgusting and wrong and makes your god far from perfect. You on the other hand have this strange idea that this is a good thing.

Sin against a government is punished by penalty (money, death, imprisonment, labor).
Sin against a holy God is punished by holy bloodshed. No other payment will do. Those are the rules.

 

[gillibean]

Sin against a government is punished by penalty (money, death, labor).
Sin against a holy God is punished by holy bloodshed. No other payment will do. Those are the rules.

But he's God why can't he change the rules?

 

[luc154]

But he's God why can't he change the rules?

I told you already, God cannot work against His own nature. He cannot 'not be' Himself.

 

[BadBoy@TheWheel]

I told you already, God cannot work against His own nature. He cannot 'not be' Himself.

Seems to me that he can do whatever he wants......:unsure:

 

[Minor Axis]

True, but experiencing the created (life, emotions, perceptions, feelings) is very different from experiencing the Creator. If you experience the Creator you find absolute truth. That is what man was created for, to know His Creator.

Again these are statements of faith. Even if there is God as you describe, if he is truly fair and respects the human race as his intelligent, free willed children, his standard can't be one of blind faith. It's a bad standard and if so, God has made a bad decision. There really needs to be no mystery and no good reason why God would expect human beings to accept him purely on blind faith especially if you're focused on one particular dogma. The reason- there are lots of faithful people in this world. God's supposed method of being mysterious will have the end effect of disenfranchising a great number of people in this world who guessed wrongly. For example, why would anyone raised in the Muslim persuasion figure out that Jesus is the way to go? You know, he could clear this up right away if he wanted to. Some believe that God showed himself to different people around the world in different ways. I don't believe that belief in Jesus and his sacrifice is the only path into heaven.

While I regret not being able to take your word for it, my ultimate destiny is something I'm going to have to discover and experience for myself. I'm pretty comfortable with where I'm at.

 

[luc154]

Seems to me that he can do whatever he wants......:unsure:

That's what you feel and presume and is totally not biblical.