When is freedom of speech too much?

[alleycat]

taken off cuz of hurt feel bads.

No ...you know what?? What I said... regardless of whether if hurt your feelings or not Sam, was true. The avatar that was posted was in poor taste. I dont care what your intentions were in posting it. I dont care if your feelings are hurt. Many other people on this forum had their feelings hurt, some of which are prominent members who have yet to return.
Hitler was a very effective leader, and had followers commit the most unthinkable acts with the shake of a finger. That is true, and I will give you that. However posting it for an avatar was downright tasteless. It would be like showing our soldiers with their heads blown off. It will offend people. If you cant accept that, then dont use it as your avatar.
If you have a problem with me and my post, take it up with me. Dont whine to other people and have them PM me to remove the post. Be a man like your avatar suggests you are.

 

[Sam]

Peter Parka Thanks Pal now I am relaxed.

 

[Darkstar]

I think it may be a good idea to lock/delete this thread now. The point has been made and corrected. Feelings are starting to get hurt now.

 

[Tim]

Before that happens, let me say a few words...


Sam, the reason this topic was split off from the other thread is that this debate wasn't appropriate there. It was never my intention to single you out. This wasn't an attack against you, but more a question about your avitar. It brought up some strong feelings in some members and I wanted them to have this thread to talk about it. We have members from all over the world and we as a group will never agree on everything or have the same views on some topics, but it's important to be able to talk about them in a civilized manner. There was a reason the staff didn't just delete your avitar without PMing you first. We wanted to allow you to explain your reasons to the members.
Your avitar spaked a debate about freedom of speech and it's always a good one to have.

 

[Sam]

Hello Tim,

I am in complete agree with you !! I am cool and calm and I am very much sure that you people will never keep me out. I just wanted to make peace after what happened.
And I hope I have succeeded in that.

 

[Tim]

You have made peace. Everything is ok as far as I am concerned.

We were just wondering why the choice of avatar... and it was a legitemate question.

 

[OUZBnd]

I posted this before, but it apply's now also.

Disclaimer: First off, don't respond to this if you only read one part, read the whole thing through before you rip it apart. It is an research paper from HS that I shortened up a bit. My point is not to take anything away from the solders who brought Hitler down, or to promote Hitler, it is to show that by looking at a situation at different angles yields different results. Furthermore, Hitler’s ideal race can be viewed as similar to Christianity.

Hitler was baptized and raised as a catholic, where he then developed a hatred for those seen as unworthy of the creator. From the slums of inner city, he found himself appalled at the immigrant's disrespect for the fatherland and the law's authority. As he saw himself a man of German-Austrian heritage in the midst of the slums and poverty, looking at these immigrants, finding prosperity through their conniving, scandalous, and manipulative practices, he would crystallize his fanatic German nationalist and anti-Semite views. Hitler eventually came to blame Communism and Jewry for everything he disliked. The strong anti-Semitism against Jews was not uncommon at the time. Jews had been prosecuted since the fourth century. Martin Luther, a German monk in the sixteenth century who sparked the protestant reformation described Jews as demons, arch-criminals, and the enemies of Christianity. The Catholic Church enacted rules forbidding Christians to marry or have sexual relations with Jews, restricted their education, employment, legal rights, and housing rights, and enforcing them to wear badges that noted them as Jews. It is these views that gave Hitler the inclination to carry out his plans. Hitler saw the German people as a higher race, whose land had been infested with people who disgraced their home and their creator. Hitler’s goal was to restore pride, power, and faith in the German people. He wanted to build an empire that would hold high on their morals and virtues; a master race, perfect in physical, mental, and moral arenas. His followers were not evil Germans as we think of them, rather they were moms and dads, relatives and neighbors. They were the proud people of German-Austria, and in support of their country just as Americans were proud in support of their country though they knew of Japanese relocation camps in WWII.

Hitler’s plans for new order were fueled by one main goal; he wanted to gain enough land for his master race. This required the removal of any people that were considered to be undesirable. He also wanted to rid Germany and its conquered lands of communism. It would be in these two points that Hitler got carried away; had he sought a more acceptable method of gaining enough space for his superior race; he would have been adored for it. In order to purify the German lands for his master race, he needed to expel the “contaminants”.

Though Hitler strayed from his original plans and never saw his visions become reality, his ideal Germany, would have several similarities with Christianities Heaven. By seeing pictures of the Hitler youth performing their synchronized stretching and exercises as they prepare for a game of soccer, one could stumble upon a comparison that had previously barely crossed the mind. Everyone was dress in clean, white shirts, with similar body size and, with few exceptions, was topped of with blonde hair. If we were to exchange their white shirts for white robes, and we threw in some puffy white clouds, a couple of harps and a golden gate, we would have a rather generic conception of Christianity’s Heaven. Just as heaven, Hitler’s land was a place where the people would live for the ruler, free of impurities, but these area are not open to just anybody; a person must meet certain standards to live there. Hitler would set the standards and chose his disciples, not only by their heritage to ensure purification, but also by their morally just and virtuous qualities in an attempt to be closer to their Creator. Christ chooses those who are to live with his father and him by their morals and faith; still, his selection is with the same attempt to be closer to god. With just these few points, it’s easy to let the comparisons between apparent opposites unravel.

Not only do the comparisons between Hitler’s ideal Germany and Heaven, but a comparison can be made to the darkness of the opposites as well. Hitler was directly or indirectly responsible for the death of 40 million Europeans. He was also responsible for the brief re-establishment of power, pride, and prosperity of a German racial community of 85 million that would strive for salvation within the Catholic Church. We can easily see that Hitler hurt 40 million, but in his eyes it was the salvation of 85 million. Christ shows us that he too has this problem of hurting just as many as he loves when he says “As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten..” (Revelations, 3:19). Hitler, through his Hitler Youth, would raise his children in his ways and beliefs, accepting those that met with his standards, expelling those unworthy of his empire. Christ raises his children through Christianity, in his ways and beliefs, accepting those who meet with his standards, expelling those considered unworthy of his kingdom. Death camps were Hitler’s Hell.

Many world-renowned leaders, including Mahatma Gandhi and Winston Churchill revered Hitler. The larger idea behind this is that the world is full of truths and realities that are another’s lies and fantasies. How much of this world is obviously one way? How much of the world do we condemn and discard because all we see is hidden in its darkness? How much of the world do we revere because all we see is shown in its light? What do we learn from closing our minds to the dynamics of the world and accepting the one sided views of ignorance? As the angle of on our life changes, so does the view.

 

[Peter Parka]

Well after reading that through, I agree with a few points but not others

Christ shows us that he too has this problem of hurting just as many as he loves when he says “As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten..” (Revelations, 3:19).

Did Jesus rebuke and chasening involve picking on people for their race and conducting sick experiments on them, torturing them and then gassing them? Didn't think so!

Many world-renowned leaders, including Mahatma Gandhi and Winston Churchill revered Hitler

No they didn't. Churchill called Hitler a bloodthirsty guttersnipe.

 

[alleycat]

Well written paper. Most people in the US wont agree with the points of course.
I am very fortunate to be free from that era of Germany. My family escaped before the hand dropped. Being that we are High Germans, the ones Hitler approved of, we would have either been with Hitler or live in fear. I am very thankful to my family for having the insight to get the hell out before it was too late.

 

[lemon]

ok, but then going with a belief many have (not necesarily attacking you, if you do believe this belief) that god will send you to hell if you dont believe in him.

well, i dont. thus, according to that belief, im going to hell.

now, apply this thought to what hitler did - he really believed that his arian(sp) race was dominant. anyone who was not of that race or belief was, metaphorically speaking, thrown to hell.

whats the difference?

 

[Eridanus]

I think it may be a good idea to lock/delete this thread now. The point has been made and corrected. Feelings are starting to get hurt now.

I'm sorry, but I don't see why a discussion about freedom of speech needs to be locked or deleted...That's another thing freedom of speech guarantees - disagreement, differing opinions, and debate. Locking or deleting a debate simply because unpopular opinions are expressed kinda negates the whole "freedom of speech" ideal.

I didn't like the image...not so much the Hitler element, but the swastika; every moral fibre of my being abhors what it represents ( and it needs to be kept in mind even though that would be classed as a popular opinion it is still freedom of speech that allows me to say that-free speech goes both ways;expression of both popular and unpopular opinions), but I believe in free speech and thus conceptually I have given a person the right to believe in whatever image, imaginary or true, they want to believe in. Whats wrong with that? I might not like or be offended by something that I see, read or hear, but why should my opinion or belief be held above anothers? If I'm offended I can do what freedom of speech allows me to do, offer my own opinion/belief/stance.

I have plenty more I would like to add (hopefully a little more articulately), however work calls...

 

[BreakfastSurreal]

Just to put a different spin on things...on why this is a strong issue for me...
A few years after the war, a kind couple from America visited Berlin and wanted to adopt a child. They came across this girl who was 6...she was brilliantly smart for her age, and they wondered why on earth anyone would give up a child like this. This child's records were burned when they adopted her, as was the policy in Germany at the time so that no orphan children would be tied in any way to the crimes or misdoings of their Nazi parents. The only information that was recieved when she was adopted was that in fact, her parents were casualties of the war. This woman is my soon to be mother in law, and my fiance's mother.

 

[TheOriginalJames]

Um... ok... I'm not going to go there. I'll just say that I think you're reading into the picture too far.

 

[Eridanus]

Just to put a different spin on things...on why this is a strong issue for me...
A few years after the war, a kind couple from America visited Berlin and wanted to adopt a child. They came across this girl who was 6...she was brilliantly smart for her age, and they wondered why on earth anyone would give up a child like this. This child's records were burned when they adopted her, as was the policy in Germany at the time so that no orphan children would be tied in any way to the crimes or misdoings of their Nazi parents. The only information that was recieved when she was adopted was that in fact, her parents were casualties of the war. This woman is my soon to be mother in law, and my fiance's mother.

You have every right to feel strongly about the issue....anyone does, but that is the thing that freedom of speech allows, for you to voice your distaste. The entire paternal side of my family are jewish, and as I said in my previous post I didn't like the image, however that is just my view and even if it is a popular held view doesn't mean it is the right view or it has more importance than another view of an opposite stance.

Freedom of speech is one of our most important rights and indeed it allows for some pretty distasteful stuff to be bandied about, but you take the good with the bad. Freedom of speech allows for the movement of information.

 

[Ria]

question: when is freedom of speech too much?


answer: when that right is trampled by others attempting to exercise their freedom of speech.

---------

personnally - i dont give a fuck. that person should be entitled to use whatever avatar they so choose. its their profile.

its just like life.

(hopefully) you do not tell another person who is of age, and in some cases below that age level, what to do. if you do tell them what to do, you are worse than hitler, because you did not learn from hitler's "mistake", as the outside world sees it. to hitler, it was not a mistake - he genuinely believed what he believed.

if i told you what you believed was wrong, and then forced you to change your beliefs to what i believed, how would that look to the outside world?

that is one major reason why the united states has the problem it has - it tries to bully everyone else into doing what the united states wants, and not letting others decide.

I too, wanted his avatar removed, purely because I don't think it was a good move considering peoples' feelings. If he has read the posts on this subject without loggin in and won't come on now? That would be a message in itself, I think.

They are just forwarding their non acceptance as they are offended by what they say. I don't think this can be viewed as 'forcing their beliefs on others'.

It is a bit too contraversial a choice to 'just be added as an avatar though', with no explanation as to the point of it, at the time he did it.

I don't appreciate or agree to the cannabis pic either, because that could be considered to be saying 'smoke cannabis, it's the best thing' - or words to that effect. That's not so.

I think it fair that they have the chance to explain why they chose them, though.

 

[NicAuf]

Oh come on people, its a fucking picture, an avatar. Everyone's avatar on here could be offensive to somebody in one way or another. Sam like everyone else on here has the freedom of speech, so let him be. Personally, I think he should put the avatar back up. He shouldn't give in to others. In closing, fuck it all.

 

[Reaver]

Re: Rep stuff.

Let me pose an aditional question to everyone...

What if he had a sig or avatar making fun of Hitler? No one would care, they would find it funny (most likely). Neo-Nazis would find it offensive, but would anyone care enough to listen to them? Why is your point-of-view on the issue any more valid than theirs? Because there are more people who are not Neo-Nazi?

My point is... Until the speech encroaches on someone elses rights, let it be. Because it is there, doesn't mean you or anyone else has to believe it. Look at NWO for example: I don't believe a word he says, and I am willing to argue my point against him, but I'm not saying his posts should be removed simply because very few people agree with him... or because he is very anti-US Government. He has his right to say his beliefs the same as anyone else. Remember: Free Speech doesn't protect speech that you like, it protects speech that you hate.

I don't appreciate or agree to the cannabis pic either, because that could be considered to be saying 'smoke cannabis, it's the best thing' - or words to that effect. That's not so.

Really? Is your opinion formulated on personal experience, or what others tell you? I'm not trying to offend you, I just want to know why you feel this way. I'm not trying to tell others to do marijuana with my avatar... I simply chose it as an extesion of myself. I have done my research on the topic, and do not agree with the general scare tactic concensus formulated towards the plant. What you decide to do with your own body is your own business, and I can't tell you how to live. Please allow me the same courtesy.

I think it fair that they have the chance to explain why they chose them, though.

What about you? Why don't you have an avatar? Nothing to "advocate?"

 

[Ria]

Re: Rep stuff.

Let me pose an aditional question to everyone...

What if he had a sig or avatar making fun of Hitler? No one would care, they would find it funny (most likely). Neo-Nazis would find it offensive, but would anyone care enough to listen to them? Why is your point-of-view on the issue any more valid than theirs? Because there are more people who are not Neo-Nazi?

My point is... Until the speech encroaches on someone elses rights, let it be. Because it is there, doesn't mean you or anyone else has to believe it. Look at NWO for example: I don't believe a word he says, and I am willing to argue my point against him, but I'm not saying his posts should be removed simply because very few people agree with him... or because he is very anti-US Government. He has his right to say his beliefs the same as anyone else. Remember: Free Speech doesn't protect speech that you like, it protects speech that you hate.



Really? Is your opinion formulated on personal experience, or what others tell you? I'm not trying to offend you, I just want to know why you feel this way. I'm not trying to tell others to do marijuana with my avatar... I simply chose it as an extesion of myself. I have done my research on the topic, and do not agree with the general scare tactic concensus formulated towards the plant. What you decide to do with your own body is your own business, and I can't tell you how to live. Please allow me the same courtesy.



What about you? Why don't you have an avatar? Nothing to "advocate?"

Quote:
I don't appreciate or agree to the cannabis pic either, because that could be considered to be saying 'smoke cannabis, it's the best thing' - or words to that effect. That's not so.

Really? Is your opinion formulated on personal experience, or what others tell you? I'm not trying to offend you, I just want to know why you feel this way. I'm not trying to tell others to do marijuana with my avatar... I simply chose it as an extesion of myself. I have done my research on the topic, and do not agree with the general scare tactic concensus formulated towards the plant. What you decide to do with your own body is your own business, and I can't tell you how to live. Please allow me the same courtesy.


Quote:

Well, I have only just seen this post with your remarks to me re a slight sentence I posted re cannabis avatar.

You have jumped the gun to say the least and come across very confrontational.

I am not confrontational and prefer to deal with things more calmly and rationally.

However, you demand an answer, I will reply because you have made assumptions about me, totally unecessarily. I did not assume with you.

No, my opinion is not formulated on personal experience, or what others tell me - I am 43 years of age and am very capable at my age, to make my own mind up on what I like/dislike, agree with/disagree with and that is my entitlement.

I was not suggesting you remove your avatar, but another person mentioned yr avatar too, so I was simply responding to that.

Ppl do what they like in my opinion, but I have often heard many on cannabis through work I have done previously, get very defensive and respond in a verbally aggressive way.

I am not aggressive, but you have had yr views and yr say many a time on here, why are others not allowed this too?

I wasn't saying that you personally, are telling ppl to smoke cannabis, just that that's how it could be read, ('could', being the operative word) that's all. There is absolutely nothing in the very few words I wrote in my bit above, telling you how to live yr life.

I have not gone into anything, other than how it 'could' be seen, that's all.

As for my having no avatar - well, I have already been over that in the chatroom, ages ago. If I decide to do one, I will - I was not aware this was a forum to join, on the condition we 'have' to have an avatar. Those running this forum have not got uptight because I don't have one - why would it bother you? It is not important to have one. My time in life, I have far more important priorities than to worry over an avatar.

I have as I said, in previous work I have done, come across ppl on cannabis - each one the same things - paranoia and verbal aggression amongst other traits (attacking any slight comment, rather than face what the real problem is). So I do have an opinion based on what I know.

I hope this explains things more clearly for you, although I nearly didn't worry about responding, due to your verbal aggression in yr post.

It was not a personal attack, so you blew it all out of proportion.

You have been unessarily confrontational towards me for such a minute sentence, but I hope this can be left now.