When is freedom of speech too much?

[Kat]

ok I can understand what people are saying about how some things offensive to one person isnt offensive to another so why make him change it...but i see hitler being offensive enough...but honestly even I could deal with that maybe...if it wasnt for the nazi sign on it too...

The nazi sign itself is saying fuck jews...it was a symbol of their hatred for them


My grandfather fought and almost died countless times in that war...he has the nazi flags he confiscated still locked in a chest to remind him of what that hatred cost him and his friends....not to mention many innocent lives

 

[Sam]

hey guys !!! chill okay ... I considered u all as my friends ... the pic of Adolf Hitler was not meant to offense anyone .... you shud have send me a private message to change it .. There is no need to make an issue out of this .. I recieved Veronica's message and I have changed it . Peace !!!

 

[Kat]

thank you sam

 

[Peter Parka]

Re: Rep stuff.

Yes I can remove it, but we are giving Sam a chance to remove it himself first.

But let me ask you a question, why should it be removed right away without letting him have a say? Every 6th grade history book has a picture of Hitler, should we have them removed? I'm not saying that you or any other member are not offended or that his avatar is out of line, because if something is considered offensive to other members, then it should be looked at and dealt with. But we should give him a chance to remove it himself or we are thinking along the same lines as the guy in the picture.

What about a picture of a pot leaf? There were some members that thought that it was not appropriate. But the overwhelming consensus was that it's just a picture, it's not like it was saying you should smoke it.

I'm just throwing out these questions.... feel free to respond

Ok, firstly I'd like to thank Sam for removing it but I'm still curious as to why he had it in the first place. Sam has never been a trouble maker on here or been offensive to anyone so I'm more shocked that he added it. To answer some of your points. Firstly I think it's very sad in this day and age that I have to justify why a picture of Hitler acompanies by a swastika in a persons avatar is offensive to me.I hardly think you can compare reavers avatar to this. Cannabis didn't torture and kill loads of innocent Jews and minorities. You mentioned that there are pictures of Hitler in history books. The important fact here is how the pictures are being used. History books are not gloryfying him and it's important that kids learn about the terrible things he did so they are aware and are on guard so hopefully we can learn from history and make sure it never happens again. An avatar on the other hand is a personal statement. Just about everyone uses it as a statement as to something about them, their likes or interests. Having a picture of Hitler immediately suggests you admire him. Anyway that's my opinion. Freedom of speech is all very well but you have to draw the line somewhere. Wouldn't you guys be offended if a paedophile came on here justifying why he should be allowed to abuse kids? I rest my case!

 

[Kat]

Re: Rep stuff.

Ok, firstly I'd like to thank Sam for removing it but I'm still curious as to why he had it in the first place. Sam has never been a trouble maker on here or been offensive to anyone so I'm more shocked that he added it. To answer some of your points. Firstly I think it's very sad in this day and age that I have to justify why a picture of Hitler acompanies by a swastika in a persons avatar is offensive to me.I hardly think you can compare reavers avatar to this. Cannabis didn't torture and kill loads of innocent Jews and minorities. You mentioned that there are pictures of Hitler in history books. The important fact here is how the pictures are being used. History books are not gloryfying him and it's important that kids learn about the terrible things he did so they are aware and are on guard so hopefully we can learn from history and make sure it never happens again. An avatar on the other hand is a personal statement. Just about everyone uses it as a statement as to something about them, their likes or interests. Having a picture of Hitler immediately suggests you admire him. Anyway that's my opinion. Freedom of speech is all very well but you have to draw the line somewhere. Wouldn't you guys be offended if a paedophile came on here justifying why he should be allowed to abuse kids? I rest my case!

good point peter...imstill intrested to know too...but mainly just glad he changed it

 

[TheOriginalJames]

The nazi sign itself is saying fuck jews...it was a symbol of their hatred for them

Wrong. The swastika is not a symbol of "hatred" towards Jewish People, you're making that assumption to make a connection between the two.

The swastika was a symbol for the Aryan people, a name which, in Sanskrit means "noble". The Aryans were a group of people who settled in Iran and Northern India. They believed themselves to be a pure race, superior to the other surrounding cultures. When the Germans looked for a symbol, they looked for a symbol which represented the purity which they believed they contained. The Nazis regarded themselves as "Aryans" and tried to steal the accomplishments of these pre-historic people.
In Nazi Germany, the swastika with its arms turned clockwise became the national symbol. In 1910, a poet and nationalist Guido von List suggested that the swastika as a symbol for all anti-Semitic organizations. When the National Socialist Party was formed in 1919, it adopted the ancient symbol, the swastika, giving it the worst meaning possible, destroying the good symbolism which the swastika had held for thousands of years prior.

In 1935, the black swastika on a white circle with a crimson background became the national symbol of Germany. The major difference between the Nazi swastika and the ancient symbol of many different cultures, is that the Nazi swastika is at a slant, while the ancient swastika is rested flat.

Today, whenever the ancient symbol is used, it is automatically assumed by most people that it is a Nazi symbol and that the people who use it are Nazis. When the Nazis took the ancient symbol, they erased the good meaning of the swastika, the symbol of purity and of life. The racist people of today further degrade the meaning of the ancient symbol by spray painting the swastika on people houses, cars, and even schools.

Nazi Swastika or Ancient Symbol?

Yes, the Nazi's perverted that symbol with their ways, but it had nothing to do with the Jewish or the Nazi's hatred towards them.

The symbol for the Jewish is the 6 point "Star of David", which the Nazi's made them wear so they could easily pick out who were Jews and who weren't.


Peter: that may be different depending on WHICH history book you're reading from. To the German People, Hitler was a hero. There's a lot to Hitler that no one but his top SS officers knew, though.

 

[Peter Parka]

Peter: that may be different depending on WHICH history book you're reading from. To the German People, Hitler was a hero. There's a lot to Hitler that no one but his top SS officers knew, though.

Sorry but that is wrong. Germans are deeply ashamed of their Nazi past and have stricter laws than anywhere else about glorifying or talking about the Nazis. One guy last year got put in prison over there for teaching his dog to give Nazi salutes!

 

[Kat]

Wrong. The swastika is not a symbol of "hatred" towards Jewish People, you're making that assumption to make a connection between the two.



Nazi Swastika or Ancient Symbol?

Yes, the Nazi's perverted that symbol with their ways, but it had nothing to do with the Jewish or the Nazi's hatred towards them.

The symbol for the Jewish is the 6 point "Star of David", which the Nazi's made them wear so they could easily pick out who were Jews and who weren't.


Peter: that may be different depending on WHICH history book you're reading from. To the German People, Hitler was a hero. There's a lot to Hitler that no one but his top SS officers knew, though.

I wasnt making an assumption james...I was going by personal experience...I grew up knowing many people who were racist...who were proud of what happened to the jews...they were proud of that symbol because of what it resembled...maybe in this case it wasnt meant that way...but in a lot of cases it is...so no I was not assuming hun...I was going by what I believed and what I know some others believe...Its not hard to make a connection between the 2 and i wasnt just grasping at straws to do it either

*backs outta this thread now since she obviously doesnt know what shes talking about*

 

[TheOriginalJames]

Sorry but that is wrong. Germans are deeply ashamed of their Nazi past and have stricter laws than anywhere else about glorifying or talking about the Nazis. One guy last year got put in prison over there for teaching his dog to give Nazi salutes!

Like I said, it depends on the history book. Germans, generally yes, are ashamed of the Hitler-era, however there are still neo-nazi's who preach a different history between 1939-1945.

 

[BreakfastSurreal]

James, name ONE neo-nazi history book. I mean come on now. Yes there are people that denied that the holocaust ever happened, but they are the minority and normally looked at like they are crazy by the rest of society. I have just come to the conclusion about you that you ALWAYS pick the opposing side adn argue until your face turns blue because that's just what you like to do. lol.

 

[Eridanus]

When is freedom of speech too much?

As long as you:

1. are not threatening/inciting physical violence, or other form of damage/crime, to a group.
2. are not specifically inflicting moral damage on an individual by name.
3. are not placing people in clear and present danger by your words (the classic example of screaming "fire" in a crowded theatre)...

...then, you have the fundamental human right to insult anyone with your subjective opinion.

 

[TheOriginalJames]

James, name ONE neo-nazi history book. I mean come on now. Yes there are people that denied that the holocaust ever happened, but they are the minority and normally looked at like they are crazy by the rest of society. I have just come to the conclusion about you that you ALWAYS pick the opposing side adn argue until your face turns blue because that's just what you like to do. lol.

I don't know of any specific BOOKS, but there is literature out there, just like there is communists and communist literature out there. Can I prove it? Find any neo-nazi, they'll tell you. I'm not a neo nazi, so I don't know. Don't come at me with that angle.

I'm arguing this side because I don't see any problem with him having a picture of Hitler with the swastika in his avatar.

It's not illegal for him to have it. Now, if police were to suspect Reaver as to having pot in his house, something along the lines of him having a pot leaf as his avatar could give the police reasonable doubt to search his apartment/house.

I'm not just 'picking the other side', I'm arguing something from my point of view. You're just getting frustrated because you can't find a way to prove me wrong.

 

[BreakfastSurreal]

i dont have to prove anything james. There is NO right or wrong in this matter. It's all a matter of opinion and beliefs, and I for one believe it is wrong. What if I had an avatar with Saddam Hussein in it? A lot of people might find that offensive, and an avatar is supposed to in some way represent you or who you are. I just don't understand why someone would want that to represent them on a message board unless that was in some way representing their beliefs and or who they are. That's the main question for sam that I have. Was it a joke? or did you have other intentions for the use of your avatar? It's really NOT a big deal, but it is a good discussion/debate topic.

 

[TheOriginalJames]

and an avatar is supposed to in some way represent you or who you are. I just don't understand why someone would want that to represent them on a message board unless that was in some way representing their beliefs and or who they are.

So basically you're calling me a dildo? Is that it? Sheesh...

Avatars are just pictures, funny, true, close to home. It's just a picture, that's my point.

I don't get why you don't have to prove anything, but why does he have to answer for himself as to why he'd put a picture of Hitler in there? His choice. He's not insulting anyone directly for it.

 

[BreakfastSurreal]

So basically you're calling me a dildo?

you took the words right out my mouth! lol

 

[TheOriginalJames]

/funneh

 

[lemon]

<idiot>

*points at lemon*

</idiot>

 

[Sam]

Hello friends !!

I would like to apologize to all my dear friends on offtopicz for using " Adolf Hitler's " pic for my profile. I guess everyone here must be aware from my previous posts and topics that I am a firm believer in God. I firmly believe that no Human Being has any right to criticise or harm any other Human Being because we all are equal.

Adolf Hitler crossed his limits by killing and torturing innocent people he had no right anyways to do so, and I pray god not to forgive his sins. Hitler was under wrong conceptions which forced him to take this false decision, and I have always protested against the same.

I have read Hitler many times during my school and college life, the only thing which impressed me was that he was a fabulous elocuter / had his firm decisions / and last but not least he always gave a reason to his countrymen as of why they should follow him and I think this is the most important thing, we have seen many dictators and politicians who have " n " number of followers but none of them know for what and why they are following their leader, but Adolf Hitler was the only Dictator who gave reason to his countrymen. Anyways I am not in his favour for his dirty cause but I liked his few good qualities.

I am sorry for all those who still believe that I did it purposely specially PETER PARKA ... buddy I am sorry .

Regards

Sam

 

[Peter Parka]

Thanks for the explanation Sam. I do disagree with what you think are Hitlers good qualities but hey, that's just my opinion. The only good thing I personally see Hitler as responsible for is the VW Beetle. Anyway, I'm cool with you now and hopefully we can put this matter to rest. Don't want to play the martyr or anything here but I do feel a bit like I've been shown to kick up a bigger fuss than I did. The fact is that I didn't start this thread. It was part of one about reputations and someone had made a list of people who deserved more. Sams name was on it and that's why I made the comment I did. Thats when hell broke lose and some one felt it was apropriate to divide the thread and start this new one. I'm ok with giving Sam rep again now it's removed and am happy with his explanation.

 

[Peter Parka]

So basically you're calling me a dildo? Is that it? Sheesh...

Avatars are just pictures, funny, true, close to home. It's just a picture, that's my point.

A picture of a swastika is neither funny, true or close to home. Also there probably are books out there portraying Hitler as a good guy and they are offensive too!