What kind of God would....

[Leananshee]

What you should realize is that it's only the atheists that see a god as a Santa Claus type figure...

If only that were true. Do you know how many people pray to God asking for help with the rent check, or other such mundane things? No, I don't either, but whatever the number is it's too high.

tim :eek

 

[Kyle B]

If only that were true. Do you know how many people pray to God asking for help with the rent check, or other such mundane things? No, I don't either, but whatever the number is it's too high.

tim :eek

I'd say that 90% of people who pray do that. I personally try to refrain from doing it, but I can't help myself sometimes.

 

[Guyzerr]

God is a figment of imagination and a crutch akin to alcohol, drugs or whatever the weak require to help them make it through the day.

I hear Christians say time and again that " it's God's will " or " thy will be done. " If that's the case then he / she / it has to take the good with the bad and same should be dished out in equal amounts by Christians. Unfortunately it isn't though because that would be admitting God has some measure of weakness.

I'll say it again..........

Originally Posted by Guyzerr
Every time a child is murdered or taken advantage of by some sexual pervert I put another check mark in the " there is no loving God " box.

 

[Leananshee]

Being a Christian is really supposed to be about having the Holy Spirit working in you, and if you do you'll naturally follow the law. Some do still believe, though, that things like illness are a curse from God, fewer now the more touchy-feely society gets. That's why from an early age I've hoped religion will evolve away from that as Einstein envisioned. Unfortunately it likely will at the slow pace the human species itself evolves. Look how long it took for the Catholic Church to apologize to Galileo....kinda late, don't you think?

tim :eek

 

[tnok]

Have any of you ever considered the good that can come from bad things happening? I know that what I may view as good may differ from yours, but I am a Christian, and I believe that it is good for people to find God and to get into church.

Examples:

1) A man I know that attends my church has brought several people to church in the past two years and his family has received many blessings from God. 4 Years ago his wife found out that his unborn son had a hole in the back of his skull allowing fluids from his brain to seep out and that he would die at birth. They began to pray. When the child was born, much to the doctors amazement, skin had formed around where the fluids were seeping out, creating a protective covering that saved the child's life.

The child will not be able to have a "normal" life, but he is alive. As a result from being in the hospital so much over the next few months, the man has been able to tell many people about Christ and get them into church, none of those people would have ever met this man had his son not been born the way he was.

2) A biker gang in California had a member die. This member happened to have a family member that attending a church in northern California and the family asked the pastor of the church to do the funeral. He agreed. There were over a hundred men from that biker gang in attendance for the funeral. The pastor told them about Jesus Christ and almost half of the men quit participating in the gang, changed how they were living their lives and began going to the church faithfully.

These men would have never found God had their friend not died, and because of that many of them are now serving God in that church.
-------
I have more examples just like these, but the point I'm trying to make is that everything happens for a reason.

In high school I had a history teacher that would always have one question at the end of every test or quiz: What are the three main purposes of history? Answers: 1. Every individual is important 2. Everything happens for a reason 3. We learn from it.

Number 2 lines up with Romans 8:28 for Christians, the verse says: And we know that all things work together for good to them who love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Message me if you have a question. Email or IM... whatever you want... JVincilione3@aol.com, tnok3@yahoo.com, jvincilione@gmail.com

 

[Guyzerr]

Have any of you ever considered the good that can come from bad things happening? I know that what I may view as good may differ from yours, but I am a Christian, and I believe that it is good for people to find God and to get into church.

Examples:

1) A man I know that attends my church has brought several people to church in the past two years and his family has received many blessings from God. 4 Years ago his wife found out that his unborn son had a hole in the back of his skull allowing fluids from his brain to seep out and that he would die at birth. They began to pray. When the child was born, much to the doctors amazement, skin had formed around where the fluids were seeping out, creating a protective covering that saved the child's life.

The child will not be able to have a "normal" life, but he is alive. As a result from being in the hospital so much over the next few months, the man has been able to tell many people about Christ and get them into church, none of those people would have ever met this man had his son not been born the way he was.

Do you know for an actual fact that wouldn't of happened if there wasn't any prayer involved.

2) A biker gang in California had a member die. This member happened to have a family member that attending a church in northern California and the family asked the pastor of the church to do the funeral. He agreed. There were over a hundred men from that biker gang in attendance for the funeral. The pastor told them about Jesus Christ and almost half of the men quit participating in the gang, changed how they were living their lives and began going to the church faithfully.

These men would have never found God had their friend not died, and because of that many of them are now serving God in that church.
-------
I have more examples just like these, but the point I'm trying to make is that everything happens for a reason.

Psssssssssttttttttttt.... I've got a real hot deal on some swamp land in Florida that I'm going to let you in on. If you act fast, real fast I won't tell anyone else.


So now I will ask you directly why God allows the following to happen? What good that can come out if acts such as these?

Originally Posted by Guyzerr
Every time a child is murdered or taken advantage of by some sexual pervert I put another check mark in the " there is no loving God " box.

 

[alice in chains]

just because idiots pray for powers within their own grasp or material items is not conclusive for anything except the fact these people are idiots.

 

[sharpies]

If there is a god then he is the ultimate serial killer, he allows us to be born & then sets up situations that may or may not have an out, if you make the wrong decision you will die, make the right decision & you will survive... this time. Continue making the right decision & you will die anyway.

God allows us to die through inaction - seems to me that it's a little like the Saw movies, Jigsaw did not kill anyone, he just set a machine in motion & then allowed people to die through inaction, this made him a murderer, therefore so is god.

Some people don't even get a choice, ask a 1 month old baby dieing because his/her heart was not formed right about god's gift of freewill.

 

[Leananshee]

Getting back to the original subject, Rabbi Harold Kushner wrote in Why Do Bad Things Happen to Good People? that God grieves with those who experience loss, he's not the cause of it. I'm sure that sounds fine to those who require an emotional Band-Aid, and it sounds close the the Deist principle of God creating the universe then leaving it alone, but it's not a satisfactory answer to me, at least not by itself.

Strictly from a Biblical perspective, God stopped directly intervening on Earth after the Flood, at least in the case of punishment: the story ends with God saying he won't destroy the world again. And the story of Job would really disturb me if I took the Bible literally -- God taking a bet with the Devil, taking away a man's entire life for a bet whether he'd still be faithful?

Yeah, sharpies, everything dies and gets recycled, and has for hundreds of millions of years. That's an interesting argument about God being a serial murderer, and has some merit to it, if God is directly acting in creation. Personally, I think that God is more of a force, an undercurrent of life, than a conscious will. That's ironic, if true, because prayer has been shown to have healing effects, though I certainly wouldn't put it in place of seeing a doctor.

You know, I never really believed in miracles or expecting them, but if prayer as a force of will is helpful (though don't expect miracles) and the collective of those wills is God, like Teilhard de Chardin somewhat suggests, then peripherally, I suppose, God does answer prayers.

On a slightly different tack, acupuncture is now in pretty common use, and is used even as anesthesia in cases where traditional methods for that can't be used. It used to be considered about as valid as voodoo. It's not known exactly why it works, but logically, looking at the charts they use, it looks like what they're sticking pins in are nodes in a circuit board, or altering the electromagnetic field of the body. I'd pretty much thought that what the hippie-dippies call an "aura" does exist, but it's just the body's EM field. I guess where I'm going with that is there are a lot of things in this world we consider to be whacked out that might have some truth to them, and it's worth it to have a certain balance of having an open mind and the BS filters on full.

tim :eek

 

[IntruderLS1]

I think tnok has his hands around a very powerful truth, but he mentions only half of it.

Man turned from God. That's when things started getting bad.

Life, like the Universe is cause and effect.

 

[Accountable]

Well I could go and rescue someone I know but didn't really like from a burning fire. Some people might say that would make me a hero, I dont think so. I still say it would make me better than an all powerful god who just decides to turn his back even though he could save them with a click of his fingers.

If there is a god then he is the ultimate serial killer, he allows us to be born & then sets up situations that may or may not have an out, if you make the wrong decision you will die, make the right decision & you will survive... this time. Continue making the right decision & you will die anyway.

God allows us to die through inaction - seems to me that it's a little like the Saw movies, Jigsaw did not kill anyone, he just set a machine in motion & then allowed people to die through inaction, this made him a murderer, therefore so is god.

Some people don't even get a choice, ask a 1 month old baby dieing because his/her heart was not formed right about god's gift of freewill.

I've always viewed God quite literally as our Father. As kids, we really can't see the whole picture. Think of a toddler trying to walk. the little tike gets up, takes a few steps (or one step

) then falls and bumps his butt. It's painful! He cries and holds his little hands up to you to pick him up and make it all better. His tears are heartbreaking, but you let him cry because you know the bigger picture. He soon tries again, and again. Far too soon, he's on the varsity track team thinking about college.

Maybe all this mayhem that is a major pain in our collective asses is really nothing serious at all, given the bigger picture. Maybe it's our job to learn from it, fix it, stand back up and carry on.

 

[Peter Parka]

I've always viewed God quite literally as our Father. As kids, we really can't see the whole picture. Think of a toddler trying to walk. the little tike gets up, takes a few steps (or one step

) then falls and bumps his butt. It's painful! He cries and holds his little hands up to you to pick him up and make it all better. His tears are heartbreaking, but you let him cry because you know the bigger picture. He soon tries again, and again. Far too soon, he's on the varsity track team thinking about college.

Maybe all this mayhem that is a major pain in our collective asses is really nothing serious at all, given the bigger picture. Maybe it's our job to learn from it, fix it, stand back up and carry on.

Yes, maybe when Hitler gasses a load of Jews, that was nothing serious at all and just one of those minor things we learn from. Of course that would make the Bible and Christianity wrong though because it teaches god made us and is perfect so a perfect creation wouldn't need to learn from mistakes.

 

[RedRyder]

I've always viewed God quite literally as our Father. As kids, we really can't see the whole picture. Think of a toddler trying to walk. the little tike gets up, takes a few steps (or one step

) then falls and bumps his butt. It's painful! He cries and holds his little hands up to you to pick him up and make it all better. His tears are heartbreaking, but you let him cry because you know the bigger picture. He soon tries again, and again. Far too soon, he's on the varsity track team thinking about college.

Maybe all this mayhem that is a major pain in our collective asses is really nothing serious at all, given the bigger picture. Maybe it's our job to learn from it, fix it, stand back up and carry on.

Very nice post. Love the metaphor. :thumbup

 

[Accountable]

Yes, maybe when Hitler gasses a load of Jews, that was nothing serious at all and just one of those minor things we learn from. Of course that would make the Bible and Christianity wrong though because it teaches god made us and is perfect so a perfect creation wouldn't need to learn from mistakes.

I'm not aware of anyplace in the Bible that claims we are perfect. I personally don't think that the Bible is the infallible word of God, but an interpretation of what hopeful, faithful, pious men thought about God and what He wants.

Christianity, like any religion, is an association of fallible people doing their best to do their best. You'd do better to judge individuals rather than institutions.

 

[cam elle toe]

I've always viewed God quite literally as our Father. As kids, we really can't see the whole picture. Think of a toddler trying to walk. the little tike gets up, takes a few steps (or one step

) then falls and bumps his butt. It's painful! He cries and holds his little hands up to you to pick him up and make it all better. His tears are heartbreaking, but you let him cry because you know the bigger picture. He soon tries again, and again. Far too soon, he's on the varsity track team thinking about college.

Maybe all this mayhem that is a major pain in our collective asses is really nothing serious at all, given the bigger picture. Maybe it's our job to learn from it, fix it, stand back up and carry on.

:nod:

and thats why I believe in reincarnation and karma. How could we possibly learn all that there is...experience all that there is, in just one lifetime.
It explains why some are born rich, poor etc..... I also believe we are our own judge. God is like a guidance counsellor, helping us to see where we went wrong, and how we can fix it in our next incarnation.
We nurture our young and as they get older, we send them out into the big world to learn from their mistakes and experiences, AND we forgive them their mistakes. We dont continually protect and coddle them because life/lives... is/are about experience and learning

I hope I've explained myself.

 

[Peter Parka]

I'm not aware of anyplace in the Bible that claims we are perfect. I personally don't think that the Bible is the infallible word of God, but an interpretation of what hopeful, faithful, pious men thought about God and what He wants.

Christianity, like any religion, is an association of fallible people doing their best to do their best. You'd do better to judge individuals rather than institutions.

Oh, I do judge individuals rather than institutions, couldn't care less what peoples religion is unless it encroaches on others. This is a thread about religion though, not about individuals.

The Bible DOES claim that god is perfect. Therefore everything a perfect god turns his hand to must be perfect too including what he makes. Seeing it quite clearly isn't the god of the Bible dosen't exist.

2Samuel 22:31 As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all them that trust in him.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

 

[Accountable]

I don't have enough conviction or passion to carry this conversation, so I'll sit back awhile. I just hafta note how all sides like to take lines from the Bible almost at random regardless of the context to help make their points.

 

[Burntblood]

I do believe in God.
I believe he set all this shit in motion and then gave us simple guidelines to follow.
Good people die, babies has deformities, teen girls are raped, moms get breast cancer, puppies get hit by cars.
This is called life.
The alternative would be predestination, puppets on strings.
I'd rather have the choice. I'd rather determine my own fate.
With that agency comes risk.
I wouldn't trade it for the world.

 

[Peter Parka]

I do believe in God.
I believe he set all this shit in motion and then gave us simple guidelines to follow.
Good people die, babies has deformities, teen girls are raped, moms get breast cancer, puppies get hit by cars.
This is called life.
The alternative would be predestination, puppets on strings.
I'd rather have the choice. I'd rather determine my own fate.
With that agency comes risk.
I wouldn't trade it for the world.

I'm not disputing the theory there is a god, rather that god is perfect as most religions preach as fact.

 

[tnok]

Do you know for an actual fact that wouldn't of happened if there wasn't any prayer involved.

Sorry about the delay, I don't get on the site very much anymore.

As far as the child living, no, I do not know for an "actual fact" what would have happened had there not been prayer... What I do know is that had the child not had the problems he had, his father would not have talked with the people that he did, he would not have had the opportunity.

I know this man, and he now has two children and a third on the way. He is an assistant pastor at my church. He is a pastor the the Deaf of this area. He preached at the church a couple weeks ago when my pastor was preaching at another church for a revival meeting..... He preached on being thankful in everything, not for everything. A man that nearly lost his son, whose dreams for his son all collapsed on him, is still thankful to the very God that allowed this to happen.

I hope you got that... God allows things to happen, he does not cause them. He wants us to choose Him, not make us do what he wants. Just like if you have a child, you want that child to love you because he loves you, not because he's scared of you, or because you tell him he has to love you. You want him to honestly and sincerely love you.

I could type on this post for hours, but I think you were obviously just trying to respond hoping I would not. I posted 3 emails that I check daily, along with telling you to IM or email me, but you chose to not do so.

You may have just not thought about it and just wanted to post, but if you reply, please email me. This is the first time I've been on this thread since my original post.

And by the way, I was not raised in church, nor in a good home.... so for the record, I've had my share of hard times(as have all of you I'm sure), and bad things happening, and I will trust God through it all.