War

[lumpenstein]

You cant make general assumptions that everyone in the world has a similar mindset about war, because they dont.

I never did but we regress. This thread is about war in general, not the Iraq war. As I have said, that has been done to death numerous times before. This thread asks whether we are pro or anti war and I declare that an over simplistic question. Even small wars are far to complex to be judged by a simple yes or no response, but I will say that war should always be a last resort, engaged only when all other avenues have been exhuasted and too many wars strike me as premature and avoidable.

 

[Hans]

But you did make assumptions. You are making assumptions that an invasion of a nation is "madness" or "failed diplomacy", I personally dont think thats really true, but there are others that will consider it totally wrong.

As for what the topic is about, I posted my original thoughts, and then I disagreed with YOUR thoughts. The war in Iraq still falls under war in general. I just think that your points/reasoning for war, iraq or not, is 100% biased to an American point of view.

 

[lumpenstein]

I won't go down that road again. Bad war is bad war. I don't care what country wages it against whom.

When I use terms such as "madness" in respect to war I do so metaphorically, but I insist that there is a touch of madness in all war. I also insist that it is a last resort and should be avoided at all costs.

 

[Strauss]

I also insist that it is a last resort and should be avoided at all costs.

Can't be a last resort if its avoided at all costs. Avoided at all costs means surrender.

 

[lumpenstein]

Can't be a last resort if its avoided at all costs. Avoided at all costs means surrender.

Nitpicker! You know what I meant.

 

[Alien Allen]

Nitpicker! You know what I meant.

I am the nitpicker damn it. :mad

get it straight :nod:

he is ..................................... :eek

damn if I know :surrender

 

[Strauss]

he is ..................................... :eek

damn if I know :surrender

Always right and correct.

 

[Alien Allen]

Always right and correct.

If You Say So !! :24:

 

[Strauss]

If You Say So !! :24:

I did, you need to work on your attention span.

 

[amanqin]

well, this is interesting. as for me, i believe most of the wars are political tools. if the government wanna a war, it will try its best to convince the people how devil its enemy is. most of the time, it will succeed. cause when u want a war, u must be strong, i mean from the military perspect, u r able to beat the so called "devil enemy". and for most of the people , ordinary folks, they r easy to be convinced by some sort of passionate "go for war, persue freedom or rescue the people in need" speech. so it's not hard to get their support. but the real situation might be different, different people have different views, why should us judge them by our own stands or just judge them by the publicity of the midea? it really sucks when one person talk about giving democracy to the other people by war. i donn't deny that sometimes we need war to slove problems, but its our last option. never go to the war for politicians. go to the war for our country, for our beloved ones, for our people ,for noraml humans.

 

[Hans]

I won't go down that road again. Bad war is bad war. I don't care what country wages it against whom.

When I use terms such as "madness" in respect to war I do so metaphorically, but I insist that there is a touch of madness in all war. I also insist that it is a last resort and should be avoided at all costs.

However, OTHER people do NOT consider war bad. There have been many, many people who have fought war for a variety of reasons, a lot of times, espcially in the past it wasnt viewed upon as "bad" "evil" or "madness".

There are two more or less accepted theories as to how war began
1)At the end of the last ice age ~10000 BC, the big game herd was dying, and out of boredom small groups of people would channel their anger into the form of war. Such as a proving trial to become a man, going to war for them wouldnt be "madness" or anything "bad" at all really. For people at that time it was PROBABLY accepted as THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

2) The other possibility of true "warfare" is introudced when agriculture began to exist. Wealth would develop in areas, and then other groups would kill/loot/pillage their town, rather than develop it on their own. To an American/Western standpoint, this is simple greed OR to some it could be an opportunity to cease goods/wealth, which they may value.

All I am getting at is just because you demonize war, doesnt mean everyone else does.

 

[Alien Allen]

Hans I don't think you have a clue what Lumpy is trying to get at.

Not saying you are wrong. Not saying he is completely right. Just I think you are missing the gist of what his points are.

 

[lumpenstein]

Hans I don't think you have a clue what Lumpy is trying to get at.

Not saying you are wrong. Not saying he is completely right. Just I think you are missing the gist of what his points are.

Thanks. I know I am not being understood. If war isn't all bad I want to know what is good about it?

 

[Hans]

I understand what he is saying, and Im only taking a portion of his arguement, I mentioned it in an earlier portion of his post. Im posting my thoughts, not debating him

As for war, once again, pick a point of view. Lets take...the Yom Kippur War between Egypt/Syria invading Egypt on Yom Kippur from 2 different directions after WWII.

From the Arab (Egypt/Syria), they attempted to destroy a community (Jewish) which they did not acknolwedge existed. A quick history thing, many jews were killed inthe Hollocaust in WWII, after WWII, many Jews took an exodus to Palestine/modern day Israel. However, for many years before the mass-exdus, the Jewish population was low, thus the Arab community believed the Palestinian Arab should rule Israel...Ok, lesson over.

For Israel, there isnt much good other than the Arab communtiy surrounding them accepting the fact that Israel exists, where as they previously didnt even cconsider them an actual nation. However, Israel was much more open/offering to peace, where as the Arab community wanted no negotiatons, and their own land.

For the other two nations, IF they were to win the war...
Egypt would gain control of the Suez canal, opening back up, as it was previously not opened for a few years. Their leader at the time (who was much more pro-peace/american than his predecessor) would use the victory as a bargining chip, to expand Egypt/keep his subjects happy.
For Syria, they would re-gain a lot of previously lost war.

I picked this since it shows war from two angles, obviousy the two invaders had something to gain, and war was their tool to achieve it. For Israel, they wanted to AVOID war, making it bad. Its just important to think humans dont think the same, and it shouldnt be forgotten. Ones person junk is anothers treasure.

 

[lumpenstein]

You argue a good point but I am looking at war from a different point of view.

You give examples of certain wars and how opposing sides justified their position. Fair enough and I'm not about to argue. But when I hear war I think of the carnage. destroyed cities and cultures. I think of cluster bombs falling on an orphanage. I think of the poor bastards as they march down the road to help refugees only to be torn apart by roadside bombs. I can only think of the human cost, not the military or political one.

 

[Hans]

Some people dont care as much about peopel as you do. Some socities think you can have no better fate than dying in battle/war. I understand that what YOU think is bad, but not everyone else does. I do understand YOUR feelings about war are 100% negitive, but Im sure if you read the history of every war, youd find atleast one or two where it would be hard NOT to say "man, those guys had a real reason to fight" or "Those guys had it coming to them!"

 

[lumpenstein]

Well, my granddad fought in Passendaele, the Spommes and Ypres, 3 of the bloodies battles of WWI. I never had a chance to ask him what he thought if it. He died when I was only 4.

Thank you for "Some people dont care as much about peopel as you do." I'll take that as a compliment but I will never apologize for hating war. Too many were avoidable and I have seen too many vets totally fucked up mentally. My father in law was one.

Thanks for some good comments that made me think.

 

[wednesday]

:homo:Well said...

 

[BadBoy@TheWheel]

Contrary to popular belief, there is no such thing as peacetime....Only civilians believe that.

Author~Anonymous Special Forces Member~

 

[Minor Axis]

War is a failure of humans to achieve their goals by other civilized means. Of course there are two sides in every conflict and there are some ass holes out there who need to be rapped up side their heads.

There are cases when war is inevitable and if you don't fight, you're going to be swallowed or maybe you'll witness the wholesale slaughter of a group of innocent people. So there are necessary wars and then there are total bullshit wars started by characters who either want to rule the world, don't respect their neighbors, don't accept "no" for an answer and basically want to have their way and/or think the sacrifice of their soldiers is worth the political objective. And at the lowest most heinous level, besides genocide, war is conducted as big business for profit.

From a U.S. perspective and as a veteran, I've supported every war the U.S. has been involved in accept the current war/occupation which is total bullshit for perceived political advantage and profit. Until Iraq, Vietnam (50 years ago) was the war to ponder. I realize that while Vietnam started with the goal of containing world wide communism, in time it turned into a bogged down losing proposition and the time to get out of there became long overdue.

The only thing worse than war is having nothing worth fighting for.

Just curious, is this your view or just an interesting quote you threw up?

Some people dont care as much about peopel as you do. Some socities think you can have no better fate than dying in battle/war. I understand that what YOU think is bad, but not everyone else does. I do understand YOUR feelings about war are 100% negitive, but Im sure if you read the history of every war, youd find atleast one or two where it would be hard NOT to say "man, those guys had a real reason to fight" or "Those guys had it coming to them!"

Bottom line War is a failure of the higher aspirations humans are supposed to be striving for. It scars people and countries for life however as a realist, "peace" is the exception, not the rule. Historically, people solve their differences by killing each other. It's nothing to be proud of.