Unions- Savior or In League with the Devil?

[Guyzerr]

I've driven busses and trucks for a living, and it is definitely a skill.

Thanks for backing me up on that. I would hate anyone to think I was making up a story. :24:

On a side note I do miss OTR but I sure don't miss the assholes on the road I had to put up with.

I've also gotten out of bed for a job that paid $7 per hour, and that was after I already had a masters degree.

I've never had a masters degree and have no intention of ever doing so. I do applaud those that have been able to though but I've known many that were in your position. Patience in the workforce isn't one of my strong points.

I have made $7.50 an hr ages ago. Matter of fact when I left home at 15 my first real job was for $1.25 an hour and I was happy to have it. I was a bricklayers helper and busted my ass for that dough. It's been 41 1/2 years since then so I have no problem saying I wouldn't work for $14 per. I have too many skills and experience under my belt to have to resort to that. I do feel sorry for those that have to though because I don't think it's a wage anyone can get ahead on... with or without unions which I despise with a passion. ( added just so I sorta stay on topic :24: )

 

[ClicheGuevara]

I missed the story of bus drivers taking your home away. Can you link me?

I lived across town from work, when they cut off my transportation I essentially became homeless. .I had to couch surf for two weeks until service resumed..

Also, at guyyzer. .when did I say my whole city became homeless? And I am allowed to have my opinions on a bunch of spoiled union workers regardless if you think it is right or not.

 

[dt3]

And which group would that be?

You said nobody would get out of bed for $14 because that isn't fair pay for a hard day's work. That's BS, somethings are far more important than how much you're getting paid. I got out of bed and drove 65 miles each way for less than $13 an hour for a part-time job, but it had the best damn insurance I've had since getting out of the military and my family needed the insurance. Some things are more important than the money.

 

[Accountable]

I lived across town from work, when they cut off my transportation I essentially became homeless. .I had to couch surf for two weeks until service resumed.t.

I'm happy to discover that you have no idea what you're saying, and I hope you never discover how ridiculous your comparison is.

 

[Accountable]

A union is great weapons when at war with an employer. When war is no longer necessary, you don't throw the weapon away, but you do put it back in storage. Union reps and government reps (politicians) have the same natural problem: they have to show that they have value or they'll lose the job. So they do more than is necessary, continuing the fight long after the war is won. That's when both become destructive.

Unions have become destructive, government has become destructive, but we can't totally get rid of either. I don't know how to rectify the situation.

Bumping things back on track.

 

[edgray]

Unions have served an important purpose in the past, a very vital one. My experience of them comes from the UK, obviously, and the have been essential there in bringing about rights for workers.

As a former member of the print union in the UK, I can say that I've had my job saved by the union on more than one occasion. The most memorable time was one night the paper was late. We'd been given so many other tasks to do that by the time it came to 4am, our clocking off time, the morning paper still wasn't ready for press even though it was due on at 6am. The managers came and gave us an ultimatum: work an extra couple of hours or you lose your job. A quick phone call to the union rep and a small walkout and we'd negotiated some decent overtime pay and those of us who were willing worked the extra hours and those that weren't went home and kept their jobs.

On the flip side, I really do think that some unions got too big for their boots. They seem to be far less relevant these days and squabble over pay increases non union workers would never see...

 

[Guyzerr]

You said nobody would get out of bed for $14 because that isn't fair pay for a hard day's work. That's BS, somethings are far more important than how much you're getting paid. I got out of bed and drove 65 miles each way for less than $13 an hour for a part-time job, but it had the best damn insurance I've had since getting out of the military and my family needed the insurance. Some things are more important than the money.

When I spoke I did so thinking as a Canadian, not an American. We have a lot in common but wages sure as hell aren't one of them.

Just so we get this straight this is what I said...

#3 - I wouldn't get out of bed for $14.00 an hour nor would anyone else that knows what a decent days pay for a hard days work is.

I never used the word " fair ". I used the word " decent ". To me there's quite a difference. I do not think nor will I ever think that $14.00, not $13.00 as you mentioned, is a decent wage for anyone other than maybe a McDonalds worker. You'll never convince me otherwise. It could be fair for the job but even that's borderline. You can't support a family on it. My wife makes $9.50 per hr on a 32 hr. week and there's no way in hell she could support herself. She clears just over $1000 per month. It's pin money and that's about it.

With reference to your benefits being important. I agree they are and I always take that into consideration when I sign on with a company. I also always consider them to be part of my wage even though I don't see it on my check. The difference here is they are affordable and pretty standard in comparison to what you have south of the 49th. They are also paid for by the company in most cases with a small portion paid by the employee. Other than very small business's they are offered and usually compulsory by almost every company.

One thing I was surprised at when I was driving is your wage structure seemed to be much lower that what we have up here. I used to read the local papers in different areas and quite often browsed the help wanted ads just for the hell of it. I was always surprised how little you guys got for the same type of work and it seemed the further south I went the lower it was.

 

[Guyzerr]

Bumping things back on track.

Sorry buddy but I had to answer dt3. Forgive me?

 

[Guyzerr]

Unions have served an important purpose in the past, a very vital one. My experience of them comes from the UK, obviously, and the have been essential there in bringing about rights for workers.

As a former member of the print union in the UK, I can say that I've had my job saved by the union on more than one occasion. The most memorable time was one night the paper was late. We'd been given so many other tasks to do that by the time it came to 4am, our clocking off time, the morning paper still wasn't ready for press even though it was due on at 6am. The managers came and gave us an ultimatum: work an extra couple of hours or you lose your job. A quick phone call to the union rep and a small walkout and we'd negotiated some decent overtime pay and those of us who were willing worked the extra hours and those that weren't went home and kept their jobs.

Let me try and get something cleared up from within your comment cuz I'm a little confused.

If you were in a union why the hell would you have to negotiate overtime pay if you stayed extra hours? Wouldn't that be covered by local laws and included in your contract to begin with?

Secondly, forcing someone to work overtime is generally against the law in most civilized jurisdictions. It seems to me the union rep had to remind the management and to that end I suppose the rep earned his pay for the day.

On the flip side, I really do think that some unions got too big for their boots. They seem to be far less relevant these days and squabble over pay increases non union workers would never see...

I detest unions with a passion but let me play the devils advocate for a second.

Without a union have you ever tried to negotiate a wage increase with someone. Unless you have all your ducks in a row it can be a daunting task.

Furthermore, how would companies with very large works forces handle employees on a one to one bases and do it fairly. ie: Ford, GM, gov't agencies etc. Would you like to earn a few bucks an hour less than a co-worker that's making more than you for doing the exact same job?

 

[Accountable]

Sorry buddy but I had to answer dt3. Forgive me?

Naturally.
It's just that I think I've finally found something Minor & I agree on and I want to see where it leads.

 

[RedRyder]

Furthermore, how would companies with very large works forces handle employees on a one to one bases and do it fairly. ie: Ford, GM, gov't agencies etc. Would you like to earn a few bucks an hour less than a co-worker that's making more than you for doing the exact same job?

In our union.... we have a pay scale. 6 Steps. When you hire in... you can start at whatever step the boss chooses based on experience. However.... Once Step 6 is obtained.... That's it. All employees get the same pay at that point whether you were there for 6 years or 30 years. Ruffles a lot of feathers let me tell you.

The Step wages are negotiated of course during contact talks. Some... the longer term workers.... want to add steps so they can keep making more than the short term workers. We used to only have 5 Steps.

Even if 2 workers hired at the same time for the same pay.... You're always gonna find one does more than the other. Slackers..... Sheesh. :willy_nilly:

 

[dt3]

Without a union have you ever tried to negotiate a wage increase with someone. Unless you have all your ducks in a row it can be a daunting task.

Furthermore, how would companies with very large works forces handle employees on a one to one bases and do it fairly. ie: Ford, GM, gov't agencies etc. Would you like to earn a few bucks an hour less than a co-worker that's making more than you for doing the exact same job?

I don't buy this line of a reasoning. Employees should be handled on a one-on-one basis when it comes to performance, wages, and discipline. I get paid based on my merits, not based on my co-workers. The company I work for has over 20,000 employees and 80 offices around the world, and not a single unionized worker. All reviews are done on an individual basis, and it seems to work very well for them. It's consistently listed as one of the top places to work, as well as routinely wins awards for its training programs.

Why would I have a problem negotiating a raise, assuming I'm a productive worker? If I'm not happy with the pay to begin with, I wouldn't take the job. If my work improves but the pay doesn't, I would leave. It's called personal responsibility. If a co-worker is making more than me, then it's either because he deserves it or I haven't done a good enough job of selling myself to the employer. Again, if I disagree with my compensation, I'm free to leave at any time.

I've never had a union job, and I've never felt like I would've been better off if it had been a unionized workplace.

 

[Minor Axis]

I don't buy this line of a reasoning. Employees should be handled on a one-on-one basis when it comes to performance, wages, and discipline. I get paid based on my merits, not based on my co-workers. The company I work for has over 20,000 employees and 80 offices around the world, and not a single unionized worker.

What does your company do, generally speaking? Are you white collar or blue collar? Management or labor? Do you have standardized pay rates? Unionized wages are based on being competent to do a job. If you are competent, then you get a standardized rate. There is no playing favorites and there is no office politics. Jobs that are unionized allow the workers to work as a group and excerpt pressure on the employer to meet their needs where otherwise, the employers just can't afford it. In many cases those needs are forcing the employer to make the workplace safer and to remove health hazards. It's been documented in many cases, that many employers will drag their feet until the death toll rises before doing anything about it. In other cases, employers will scheme to get rid of senior workers so young ones can start at the starting pay rate. If that is good for you, always work non-union.

You're free to leave at any time? As an individual with no union representation, you have the right to say "screw you" as you walk out the door. If that's good for you fine. When they cut your work hours or your pay, or other benefits, while giving themselves nice bonuses, just leave, no whining allowed. Economy tight, jobs not there? You've got your pride to carry you through.

I can't speak for other unions, but in the company I work for, union members must do their job competently or they will be removed from their positions. And again, unions don't pop up because owners are wonderful, it's because they are taking advantage of their work force.

Btw, you signature is the reason why many sites put strict limits on signature size.

 

[Accountable]

dt3, likely your company treats you fairly because of what unions did in other companies, both good and bad, and they don't want unions taking over your company. As a result, the employees don't need a union to get fair treatment.

 

[Alien Allen]

What does your company do, generally speaking? Are you white collar or blue collar? Management or labor? Do you have standardized pay rates? Unionized wages are based on being competent to do a job. If you are competent, then you get a standardized rate. There is no playing favorites and there is no office politics. Jobs that are unionized allow the workers to work as a group and excerpt pressure on the employer to meet their needs where otherwise, the employers just can't afford it. In many cases those needs are forcing the employer to make the workplace safer and to remove health hazards. It's been documented in many cases, that many employers will drag their feet until the death toll rises before doing anything about it. In other cases, employers will scheme to get rid of senior workers so young ones can start at the starting pay rate. If that is good for you, always work non-union.

You're free to leave at any time? As an individual with no union representation, you have the right to say "screw you" as you walk out the door. If that's good for you fine. When they cut your work hours or your pay, or other benefits, while giving themselves nice bonuses, just leave, no whining allowed. Economy tight, jobs not there? You've got your pride to carry you through.

I can't speak for other unions, but in the company I work for, union members must do their job competently or they will be removed from their positions. And again, unions don't pop up because owners are wonderful, it's because they are taking advantage of their work force.

Btw, you signature is the reason why many sites put strict limits on signature size.

Wow did they ever brain wash you

Let me tell ya it is not unions that TODAY make any employer squirm to make his work place safe. It is that little monster called OSHA.

I doubt your ilk will ever be happy until unions run the companies. Lets see how that works for GM now that Obama sold out the investors

 

[Minor Axis]

Wow did they ever brain wash you

I got it you don't like unions and you are one of the few clear thinkers in the forum.

Let me tell ya it is not unions that TODAY make any employer squirm to make his work place safe. It is that little monster called OSHA.

I know that. Just curious if you like OSHA or do you consider that some of the onerous regulation Washington dishes out?

I doubt your ilk will ever be happy until unions run the companies. Lets see how that works for GM now that Obama sold out the investors

All unions are not alike, just as business owners range from good to bad. I and my union don't want to run my company. We just want a fair shake. And yes the definition of fair is all in the eye of the beholder. But typically your ilk, because of their perception that unions interfere with business plans and to make political points, can't bring themselves to say anything good about them even when union workplace promoted safety/health rules and company abuses have been documented. It's your right to think the bad outweighs the good regarding unions. As an employee in the travel industry I disagree.

dt3, likely your company treats you fairly because of what unions did in other companies, both good and bad, and they don't want unions taking over your company. As a result, the employees don't need a union to get fair treatment.

I'm impressed with the fairness of your statement. I agree with this except maybe it's possible that a company can treat their employees fairly because its the right thing to do?

 

[Alien Allen]

Minor my perceptions are just as skewed by my surrounding as yours are from yours

I have watched the UAW hold the Big 3 hostage and I will bet once those companies return to profit the unions will be back slugging away for more of their demands.

My wife worked at a union food store. It was sickening what some got away with there. She currently works at the school district and some more sickening stuff is witnessed. I detect a pattern. I suspect you are not paying attention to those who work around you that get coddled by the union.

 

[Minor Axis]

Minor my perceptions are just as skewed by my surrounding as yours are from yours

I have watched the UAW hold the Big 3 hostage and I will bet once those companies return to profit the unions will be back slugging away for more of their demands.

My wife worked at a union food store. It was sickening what some got away with there. She currently works at the school district and some more sickening stuff is witnessed. I detect a pattern. I suspect you are not paying attention to those who work around you that get coddled by the union.

I think the UAW over the years has become an example of the extremes unions want to avoid. And speaking of extremes, Wallstreet/Banks and the perception that CEO's should make tens of millions per year. There was a time in our recent history when CEO's made 100 times what the worker made, not 1000 times. What has changed? The people have changed.

Substandard work should not be coddled by any union. I speak only for my union- substandard work can result in accident and death of paying customers so it's not tolerated.

 

[dt3]

What does your company do, generally speaking? Are you white collar or blue collar? Management or labor? Do you have standardized pay rates? Unionized wages are based on being competent to do a job. If you are competent, then you get a standardized rate. There is no playing favorites and there is no office politics. Jobs that are unionized allow the workers to work as a group and excerpt pressure on the employer to meet their needs where otherwise, the employers just can't afford it. In many cases those needs are forcing the employer to make the workplace safer and to remove health hazards. It's been documented in many cases, that many employers will drag their feet until the death toll rises before doing anything about it. In other cases, employers will scheme to get rid of senior workers so young ones can start at the starting pay rate. If that is good for you, always work non-union.

Standardized pay rates. Wow, sounds awesome. Unless you're an over-achiever or a hard-worker. Like I said, I want to be judged on my merits alone. I don't want a union dictating where my pay scale is, I want the employer doing it. Why would I want to work for a company that is only willing to pay me fair-market value if it's arm is being twisted? That isn't a place I would want to work, regardless of the union.

I'm sure there are many valid examples of unions that have done good for the employees. But they aren't needed anymore, in my opinion. Like I said, I've never worked somewhere that I feel would have been better if it had been union.

You're free to leave at any time? As an individual with no union representation, you have the right to say "screw you" as you walk out the door. If that's good for you fine. When they cut your work hours or your pay, or other benefits, while giving themselves nice bonuses, just leave, no whining allowed. Economy tight, jobs not there? You've got your pride to carry you through.

I work in an at-will state, I knew that risk when I took the job. The only job-security I believe I need is a good work ethic and a little bit of knowledge. If the company doesn't respect that, then I'll walk out the door with no regrets. I don't need an entity to look out for me, I'm doing fine on my own.

I can't speak for other unions, but in the company I work for, union members must do their job competently or they will be removed from their positions. And again, unions don't pop up because owners are wonderful, it's because they are taking advantage of their work force.

Btw, you signature is the reason why many sites put strict limits on signature size.

You don't like the sig? I'm hurt

 

[Accountable]

I'm impressed with the fairness of your statement. I agree with this except maybe it's possible that a company can treat their employees fairly because its the right thing to do?

It is not possible for a company to treat its employees fairly because it is not human. When a company grows beyond its owner then the relationship has to change. An owner, an employer, is expected to treat his employees fairly because its the right thing to do, and because it's just good business.

As a company grows, duties and responsibilities are dispersed among more people, and accountability is diluted. At some point it reaches critical mass, in which employees cease to be individual people and become simply resources. It's at that point that employee/employer relationships have to change.