Trayvon Martin- Tragedy

[Aeval]

This is a valid point as well.

I guess it boils down to, did Zimmerman act overly aggressive towards Martin or did Martin act overly aggressive with Zimmerman? Which of the two acted outside of law first?

I still can't help but have a gut feeling that this whole thing could have been avoided if Zimmerman would have just kept his distance while on the phone with 911 and allow the authorities to handle it.

Exactly.

 

[The Man]

I think this is a pretty well said. For what is public knowledge at this point ... it looks pretty bad for Zimmerman for not following the 911 operators instructions.

And yes ... if Zimmerman walks, there probably will be some serious civil disturbances.

I dont think he is automatically guilty for not following the instructions of the dispatcher.
Lets reverse it for a moment..."yes follow him"...then he gets shots
Family sues for bad advice from dispatch.

Its going to be pretty standard to cover ones butt in these cases
Lets say you have an intruder in the house..."Can I shoot him?"..."We dont recommend it sir"
They cant very well give you permission without knowing the full circumstances.
And yes you can shoot the guy if he is a threat although they didnt recommended it...it comes down to was it a justified shooting.

Same for this shooting ....the reason they advised to not follow was for his own safety..to cover their own butts.

It basically comes down to the altercation itself IMO

 

[The Man]

This is a valid point as well.

I guess it boils down to, did Zimmerman act overly aggressive towards Martin or did Martin act overly aggressive with Zimmerman? Which of the two acted outside of law first?

I still can't help but have a gut feeling that this whole thing could have been avoided if Zimmerman would have just kept his distance while on the phone with 911 and allow the authorities to handle it.

I agree the whole thing could have been avoided had he not approached.
But he was in the right for approaching as that is what he is supposed to do as the night watchman.

He only received a generic response from dispatch for his own safety,,,not because it is a crime to follow the guy within the complex

 

[Jaybird]

This is a valid point as well.

I guess it boils down to, did Zimmerman act overly aggressive towards Martin or did Martin act overly aggressive with Zimmerman? Which of the two acted outside of law first?

I agree.

I still can't help but have a gut feeling that this whole thing could have been avoided if Zimmerman would have just kept his distance while on the phone with 911 and allow the authorities to handle it.

I think everyone, and I mean everyone, that actually has some of the actual details of this case wishes Zimmerman had never gotten out of his car that day. I am sure Zimmerman does as well. He probably has been instructed by his attorney to not say so though, and I do not blame him for staying quiet.

It really is a screwed up tragedy and case. Many things could have been done differently that day(by Zimmerman, by Martin, by bystanders, by the non-emergency operator, by anyone and everyone involved) and we all would not be discussing this at all. Does all the blame fall on Zimmerman's shoulders? Well, unless he did something actually criminal before the confrontation occurred, I think not. One does not lose their right to self-defense because they got out of a car and did something stupid. Only if he did something criminal, and I do not see any evidence that he did anything criminal. Stupid? Most definitely.

 

[Mercury]

It basically comes down to the altercation itself IMO

Yeah, I agree that this is the ultimate decisive factor in this whole thing.

 

[Aeval]

I agree the whole thing could have been avoided had he not approached.
But he was in the right for approaching as that is what he is supposed to do as the night watchman.

He only received a generic response from dispatch for his own safety,,,not because it is a crime to follow the guy within the complex

Was he a "night watchman" or neighborhood watch captain? According to any neighborhood watch information I read, they shouldn't be armed and they should not approach someone suspicious. Agreed, it is for their own safety and nothing is set in stone, but if he has stayed put and done what was advised, he wouldn't be hiding in fear of his life right now.

And regarding self defence...how do we know Zimmerman didn't lay a hand on Martin first and Martin swung? If that's the case, he had every right to do so...he (Martin) was where he was entitled to be and he was within his rights to protect himself.

It's a mess and the media is making it much worse and it's only going to get worse.

 

[Mercury]

One does not lose their right to self-defense because they got out of a car and did something stupid. Only if he did something criminal, and I do not see any evidence that he did anything criminal. Stupid? Most definitely.

Very true.

I think I am a bit confused as to what Zimmerman's status as night watch was. Is he a security guard or just a "neighborhood watchman?"

 

[The Man]

And all of that may have happened. I am not saying it did or did not. We really do not know. The actual 'confrontation' could have happened any number of ways. Me personally though? If Zimmerman had stopped Martin to question him? Then I dont think it is as clear cut imo as to a self-defense claim. It still could be though. I just dont know. I wasn't there. But if he did actually stop and question Martin first, that was a very very very stupid thing to do by Zimmerman. Criminal? Probably not.

Would it remove his right to self defense if actually physically attacked?? That would be the ultimate question. And IDK what the answer to that would be, but it would be a very interesting case study, and would probably go up the ladder to at least the FL Supreme Court, possibly higher. If Zimmerman IS ultimately charged and convicted because of such a situation? We could be seeing a landmark case study on self-defense laws in this country in the making. I hope, that is all the outcome would be from this case, but there are many other possibly far worse outcomes that can come out of this case. :/

Yes I was only speculating on the approach...heck it could have even went the other way..the young man may have went up to him and said "what you doing following me bitch I will beat you down you punk ass watchman po po wanna be"

I was just guessing the young man was approached and it turned nasty.

I am just trying to put some possibilities out there as to what happened as compared to the many versions below that are running about of

Gunman/watchman chases down kid from candy store run and shoots him because he is black..cops pat him on the back and buy him a drink.

 

[Jaybird]

Very true.

I think I am a bit confused as to what Zimmerman's status as night watch was. Is he a security guard or just a "neighborhood watchman?"

He was neither. He had a volunteer status as Neighborhood watch captain. The HOA had asked for volunteers, and he volunteered, and the HOA accepted.

However, supposedly, he was nothing more than a citizen on an errand at the time, and that was why he was actually armed.

I hear the family has already filed a civil suit against the HOA for a wrongful death suit. They may have a valid case....maybe not....in this situation. But civil lawsuits have a lot more leeway than criminal ones.

 

[The Man]

Was he a "night watchman" or neighborhood watch captain? According to any neighborhood watch information I read, they shouldn't be armed and they should not approach someone suspicious. Agreed, it is for their own safety and nothing is set in stone, but if he has stayed put and done what was advised, he wouldn't be hiding in fear of his life right now.

And regarding self defence...how do we know Zimmerman didn't lay a hand on Martin first and Martin swung? If that's the case, he had every right to do so...he (Martin) was where he was entitled to be and he was within his rights to protect himself.

It's a mess and the media is making it much worse and it's only going to get worse.

Just a run of the mill neighborhood watch guy from what I gather.
You are advised to not carry arms just because they are watchman...but if you are otherwise allowed to carry then you are not restricted to carry just because you are on watch...I expect is is that way from state to state

Being on watch would be a good time to carry...as you are in a more dangerous position than watching tv in the house.
As they say...look for trouble long enough one will find it.

Alot of security guards{night watchman for businesses} pack for instance..you just never know what will happen.

Although the security guard "shouldnt pack"..if he is in danger he can shoot although he shouldnt be packing.

And I agree we dont know who threw the first punch nor the full details of the altercation....which will ultimately decide if it is pursued....But the way it stands now the shooter was only defending himself until there is proof to show otherwise...Of which I agree with,
IMO alot of investigation does need to take place though to obtain all the information possible about the altercation itself

 

[Jaybird]

And regarding self defence...how do we know Zimmerman didn't lay a hand on Martin first and Martin swung? If that's the case, he had every right to do so...he (Martin) was where he was entitled to be and he was within his rights to protect himself.

That is an interesting issue, that I thought about when this first started to bubble up to the national level, and the 911 tapes were released and I listened to them. Would Martin be able to use a SYG defense himself, if Zimmerman did not have a gun that day, and Martin was charged with assault? And imo, we actually do not know. It would again, boil down to who was acting aggressively towards the other....first.

Was Zimmerman getting out of his car and running to see where someone ran...acting aggressively? Well, honestly...none of us really know. I would tend to think though that the police, and the DA, and soon to be, the Grand Jury have a whole lot more information on this case than we do.

However, this is the way I look at it. If I am walking down the street, armed, and I think someone is following me. What are my options? I can not turn and shoot. Therefore, simply being followed would not be justification for me to attack someone, so SYG nor self defense wouldn't apply in such a situation. I only have 3 options. Call the police, run, or ask the person what their problem is. Anything beyond that....and I am the attacker.

If? Martin laid a hand on Zimmerman, that could be a totally different scenario. But as I already said, the only way Zimmerman feasibly 'caught' Martin to even lay a hand on him would be if Martin confronted him first. By the end of the 911 call, Zimmerman has no idea where Martin is. So, the facts lean towards Martin actually confronting Zimmerman that day, unless we think Zimmerman is some super fast sleuth who having lost sight of a 17 yr old HS football player someone found Martin and was stupid enough to actual confront. But again, that is just speculation.

It's a mess and the media is making it much worse and it's only going to get worse.

Yes.

 

[Mercury]

He was neither. He had a volunteer status as Neighborhood watch captain. The HOA had asked for volunteers, and he volunteered, and the HOA accepted.

However, supposedly, he was nothing more than a citizen on an errand at the time, and that was why he was actually armed.

I hear the family has already filed a civil suit against the HOA for a wrongful death suit. They may have a valid case....maybe not....in this situation. But civil lawsuits have a lot more leeway than criminal ones.

Ahhhh, okay.


Yeah, I was wondering when the civil suits would start and they definitely do have way more leeway than criminal cases.

 

[Alien Allen]

For the record, I do not believe Zimmermans actions were racially motivated. I also disagree that this should be portrayed as a race issue by either side.

My whole issue here is that Zimmerman should have been arrested and charged, but he was not.



Here is the fathers own words:





See the fathers words above. Why are people so intent on attacking the parents and blaming the victim here? It seems the exact reverse of one side claiming racism.

A human being has been killed. This killing would have been avoided if Zimmerman had not disregarded police instructions.

So asking some questions is an attack? Sigh

 

[CityGirl]

Something that perplexes me about the 911 transcript is the end of the call. [Quote911 transcript]
Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of?
Zimmerman: I don’t know, it’s a cut through so I don’t know the address.
Dispatcher: Okay do you live in the area?
Zimmerman: Yeah, I...
Dispatcher: What’s your apartment number?
Zimmerman: It’s a home it’s 1950, oh crap I don’t want to give it all out, I don’t know where this kid is.
Dispatcher: Okay do you want to just meet with them right near the mailboxes then?
Zimmerman: Yeah that’s fine.
Dispatcher: Alright George, I’ll let them know to meet you around there okay?
Zimmerman: Actually could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at?
Dispatcher: Okay, yeah that’s no problem. Zimmerman: Should I give you my number or you got it?
Dispatcher: Yeah I got it [redacted by Mother Jones]
Zimmerman: Yeah you got it.
Dispatcher: Okay no problem, I’ll let them know to call you when you’re in the area. [/Quote]

This part seems to indicate Zimmerman didn't want to be obligated to stay where he was and wait for the police and that he continued his pursuit of Martin.

 

[Joe the meek]

So in your mind, if Martin looks different than his photo's, then Martin is guilty of getting himself killed? WTF?

No, just that it's propaganda.

When I first read the story, I saw pictures of a boy. The impression I had was one of an overzealous cop wannabe (which to some extent hasn't changed), but that the subject was a poor child that had no physical prowess to protect himself. If Martin was 6'4" pushing 240 lbs, the dynamics of the encounter could of been different than what I originally thought. There is a specific reason why the pictures of a small black boy are being put out there. The fact that you can't see perhaps why those pictures are being put out there tells me your judgement may not be as clear as you think.

Fact is this has become a three ring circus.

I will say the more I read about how the case was handled, the more I don't think people were trying to sweep in under the rug. There is still the possibility that Martin didn't have to confront Zimmerman and could of still retreated, particularly since he was only about 65 yards from his home. Not saying that's something you should have to do, but it's something I would of done.

Actually, didn't Martin have a cell phone? Why didn't Martin call 911 and ask for help? Something else I would of considered.

 

[CityGirl]

Trayvon Martin's size is beginning to be like a fish tale. He keeps getting bigger and bigger. His weight goes from 140-170-240. He was HUGE, I tell ya!

 

[Johnfromokc]

Even Zimmermans lawyer agrees SYG does not apply:

http://www.clintonlindsay.com/2012/...ayvon-martins-killing-says-zimmermans-lawyer/

Sanford, Florida (CNN) – A lawyer for the man at the center of the Trayvon Martin death investigation said Florida’s “stand your ground” law doesn’t apply to the shooting that killed the unarmed teen.

“In my legal opinion, that’s not really applicable to this case. The statute on ‘stand your ground’ is primarily when you’re in your house,” said Craig Sonner, attorney for George Zimmerman. “This is self-defense, and that’s been around for forever — that you have a right to defend yourself. So the next issue (that) is going to come up is, was he justified in using the amount of force he did?”

Isn't it interesting that so far, all the forum right wingers have weighed in on the side of giving Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt, even though rational minds agree Zimmerman should have waited for the police?

Does anyone disagree that Zimmerman should be arrested, and tried based on the evidence?

Even REPUBLICAN Jeb Bush agrees that SYG does not apply, although it is interesting to hear right wingers here dismiss the opinions of one of their own:

Former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, who signed “state your ground” into law in 2005, said the statute doesn’t pertain to the case surrounding Martin’s death, according to The Dallas Morning News.

“This law does not apply to this particular circumstance,” Bush said after an event at the University of Texas at Arlington, according to the newspaper. “Stand your ground means stand your ground means stand your ground. It doesn’t mean chase after somebody who’s turned their back.”

Now - here are some pics that show the clear line of site Zimmerman had:

Purple Arrow - Main Entrance

Dark Blue Oval - Clubhouse

Orange X - 2831 Retreat view circle address

Yellow X - approximate location in backyards where Trayvons body was

Light blue X - Approximate location where his father was living

Red arrow - Back entrance




......................................................


Next photo of shooting scene:



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

There was plenty of space for Zimmerman to have the line of sight and observe Martin without appearing threatening.

Would any rational observer believe Zimmermans claim that Martin stalked him (Zimmerman) and jumped him? No - That story does not make any sense whatsoever.

The only way we are going to find out is for the prosecutor to charge Zimmermen and force a criminal trial. Then, if Zimmerman is innocent, he can go free and justice has been served. But until there is a trial, there can be no claim of fairness or justice. Let's let the criminal justice system do its job.

 

[Joe the meek]

Trayvon Martin's size is beginning to be like a fish tale. He keeps getting bigger and bigger. His weight goes from 140-170-240. He was HUGE, I tell ya!

And here is the question...what was his actual physical size? Can you answer that?

The more I read about this case, it isn't as clear cut as many who have protested how it's been handled says it is.

Another question for you... who was the one crying for help? Many news stories I read on this topic imply it was Martin doing the crying. The FACT is news sells news, and sometimes it is hard separating fact from fiction.

As mentioned, from what I read from the Feds, they don't sound so sure that this is a "lock him up" case.

Nah, now that Sharpton has gotten involved it hasn't become a three ring circus.

Does anyone know what caliber gun was used?

 

[Johnfromokc]

So asking some questions is an attack? Sigh

No Allen, asking questions is not an attack. But do tell me why you are questioning the parents? What does that have to do with Zimmerman shooting their son in the chest?

 

[Jaybird]

Something that perplexes me about the 911 transcript is the end of the call. [Quote911 transcript]
Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of?
Zimmerman: I don’t know, it’s a cut through so I don’t know the address.
Dispatcher: Okay do you live in the area?
Zimmerman: Yeah, I...
Dispatcher: What’s your apartment number?
Zimmerman: It’s a home it’s 1950, oh crap I don’t want to give it all out, I don’t know where this kid is.
Dispatcher: Okay do you want to just meet with them right near the mailboxes then?
Zimmerman: Yeah that’s fine.
Dispatcher: Alright George, I’ll let them know to meet you around there okay?
Zimmerman: Actually could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at?
Dispatcher: Okay, yeah that’s no problem. Zimmerman: Should I give you my number or you got it?
Dispatcher: Yeah I got it [redacted by Mother Jones]
Zimmerman: Yeah you got it.
Dispatcher: Okay no problem, I’ll let them know to call you when you’re in the area.

This part seems to indicate Zimmerman didn't want to be obligated to stay where he was and wait for the police and that he continued his pursuit of Martin.[/QUOTE]

It is absolutely possible. Or maybe the mailboxes were away from his car, and he was planning on going to go to his car(like is alleged he told the cops). We dont know. I would assume the cops do though, or at least asked the question. That is the thing with all of these theories, mine, yours, the media, they are all just speculation, and we have very little actual facts. This case has been tried in the court of public opinion over very few details, and in some cases...pure speculation or fabrication given as fact. That is the real problem here.

Joe has it correct above. Much of what the media has reported is pure propaganda. And sadly, many have blindly believed that propaganda, and have gotten caught up in it.

I find it funny(and not in a haha way) how some media outlets are now backtracking on this story a bit. Way too little, way too late though as the public for the most part has already made up their minds.

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

ORLANDO - A witness we haven't heard from before paints a much different picture than we've seen so far of what happened the night 17-year-old Trayvon Martin was shot and killed.
The night of that shooting, police say there was a witness who saw it all.
Our sister station, FOX 35 in Orlando, has spoken to that witness.
What Sanford Police investigators have in the folder, they put together on the killing of Trayvon Martin few know about.
The file now sits in the hands of the state attorney. Now that file is just weeks away from being opened to a grand jury.
It shows more now about why police believed that night that George Zimmerman shouldn't have gone to jail.
Zimmerman called 911 and told dispatchers he was following a teen. The dispatcher told Zimmerman not to.
And from that moment to the shooting, details are few.
But one man's testimony could be key for the police.
"The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: 'help, help…and I told him to stop and I was calling 911," he said.
Trayvon Martin was in a hoodie; Zimmerman was in red.
The witness only wanted to be identified as "John," and didn't not want to be shown on camera.
His statements to police were instrumental, because police backed up Zimmerman's claims, saying those screams on the 911 call are those of Zimmerman.
"When I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point," John said.
Zimmerman says the shooting was self defense. According to information released on the Sanford city website, Zimmerman said he was going back to his SUV when he was attacked by the teen.
Sanford police say Zimmerman was bloody in his face and head, and the back of his shirt was wet and had grass stains, indicating a struggle took place before the shooting.

^^That report is making the eye witness out to be some 'new' witness, that the media just found out about. That information was out in the public view BEFORE this story became national news. Like, the next day of the incident. And even the above story has some bold faced biased reporting in it. But it is at least better than they have been doing.

It is the classic, come out with front page headlines "Racist vigilante chases down little boy and shoots him, and gets away with murder" and then a week later, hide on page 10...."Oh, we may have been wrong, here is some 'new' evidence"

What has been so shocking to me, is that I have sat here, and watched this story go from a local issue, to a regional issue, to a state issue, to a national issues, and even international issue, and change and morph and be flat out miss reported at each and every step above. I have literally been dumb struck with how the media was either stupid and miss informed or blatantly biased. It is one of the worst cases of media bias I have ever seen.