To eat meat or not to.

[Tim]

Ok, here is the official debate thread for vegetarians to prove their case why we shouldn't eat meat. I only say that they need to prove their case, because since the beginning of time man has eaten meat for survival and if someone thinks that humans should be vegetarians, then that would be a change and not a continuation of human behavior.

 

[Peter Parka]

I love my meat, I can't imagine a world without it! As long as the animals are not mistreated before being slaughtered I cannot see what's wrong with eating it.

 

[White2000GT]

I am definitely a carnivore myself. But, in favor of the Vegetarians (not them goofy Vegans) I would say that overall a Vegetarian diet is definitely healthier than a meat eaters diet. Not saying that eating meat isn't good for you. I have heard it recommended that red meat be eaten sparingly, but there is no reason to cut it completely from one's diet. But, Vegetarians, by not eating meat, do tend to cut alot of the saturated fat and bad cholesterol out of their diets in the mean time. Besides, have you ever seen a fat Vegetarian?

 

[sharpies]

Omnivores Rule!!!

Allan

 

[TheOnly]

i agree with Reckless Tim. animals eat other animals.........thts just how it goes...... i dont understand how vegetarians think they r doing a gud thing

 

[Peter Parka]

If everyone went vegetarian, think about the amount of farm animals which would get abandoned or killed anyway as they wouldn't serve any purpose. Whole species would become ecstinct!

 

[TheOriginalJames]

Omnivore all the way. Vegetarians usually begin being one because they learn how animals are slaughtered (take my other aunt, who's not the homo-hating bitch). She eats fish and chicken, but no pork, bacon or beef products. That stemmed from her high school report on slaughtering.

Red meat is actually good for you if cooked and prepared properly. It's my understanding that a lot of vegetarians (and vegans) are malnourished.

No offense to Leland, but he's very very skinny and he's one step off being a vegan from his vegetarianism. He may have a very high metabolism like I do, but I think he'd look slightly healthier (little bit more weight) if he ate meat... as an example.

On the other hand, my aunt has been trying to lose weight lately. My mom lost a lot of weight and has always eaten red meat.

I don't know, I just can't go without meat.

 

[Sneakiecat]

Red meat is actually good for you if cooked and prepared properly. It's my understanding that a lot of vegetarians (and vegans) are malnourished.

My sister saw this and wrote this response...


Wow, all I can say is wow. In some ways that comment offends me. I have been a vegetarian for 9 years of my life (I'm 21 now). I would in no way say that I am malnourished at all. If you ever met any REAL vegetarians, then you would not say that most of them are malnourished.

It bothers me when people think that people who don't follow the norm (in this case diet-wise) are doing something bad. Being a GOOD vegetarian means that you will live a very healthy and very normal life. However, there are a lot of people out there who call themselves vegetarians that don't eat properly and can become malnourished. Someone who is dedicated to a vegetarian lifestyle will have no problems with nutrition. By being a vegetarian, you cut out a lot of fats. If you eat a varied enough diet then you can make up for all of the proteins that you don't get from eating meat. The majority of people who eat a standard American diet get twice as much protein as needed. Protein is not stored as a reserve for later but rather as body fat. Not only are people eating too much protein, but they are eating protein for high fat items, specifically red meat.

I became a vegetarian mainly because I didn't like the fact that I was eating an animal. I don't like the taste of meat and I have never craved meat. I do still eat dairy products and eggs (what is known as a lacto-ovo vegetarian). Since I have stopped eating meat, I feel a lot better about myself and my body. I have never felt sickly and I certainly don't look it.

Please don't take anything I say as why you should become a vegetarian. There are many great reasons, but I think it is a decision that an individual should make. I want people to respect me for my beliefs and so I respect people for their beliefs. If anyone has any questions about being a vegetarian or reasons why people become vegetarians, I'll gladly offer insight for the conversation.

As a side note, I think if people were to stop eating all animals, that doesn't mean those animals will become extinct. There are a lot of animals that people don't eat now that aren't extinct.

..........

The rest of our family eats meat but we all respect her for her choice. That doesn't mean we don't tease her every so often. I personally don't think I could be a vegetarian but I have nothing against it.

 

[andcuriouser]

Sneakiecat's sister said is very, very well. I couldn't have said it better.

Now, Matt's VEGAN, and he is very far from skinny or malnourished. If anything, he's probably one of the healthiest people I know.

 

[lemon]

um. meat is good for you. how else do you build up muscles? by getting the proteins found in meat. now, im not sure if those same proteins can be found in meatless diets, but hell, id rather have natural proteins than synthetic ones found in other types of food for vegetarians.

around here, if you dont eat meat, people look at you like wtf? ... lol

oh - and muscles build up with proteins and exercise. forgot that

 

[TheOriginalJames]

My sister saw this and wrote this response...


Wow, all I can say is wow. In some ways that comment offends me. I have been a vegetarian for 9 years of my life (I'm 21 now). I would in no way say that I am malnourished at all. If you ever met any REAL vegetarians, then you would not say that most of them are malnourished.

It bothers me when people think that people who don't follow the norm (in this case diet-wise) are doing something bad. Being a GOOD vegetarian means that you will live a very healthy and very normal life. However, there are a lot of people out there who call themselves vegetarians that don't eat properly and can become malnourished. Someone who is dedicated to a vegetarian lifestyle will have no problems with nutrition. By being a vegetarian, you cut out a lot of fats. If you eat a varied enough diet then you can make up for all of the proteins that you don't get from eating meat. The majority of people who eat a standard American diet get twice as much protein as needed. Protein is not stored as a reserve for later but rather as body fat. Not only are people eating too much protein, but they are eating protein for high fat items, specifically red meat.

I became a vegetarian mainly because I didn't like the fact that I was eating an animal. I don't like the taste of meat and I have never craved meat. I do still eat dairy products and eggs (what is known as a lacto-ovo vegetarian). Since I have stopped eating meat, I feel a lot better about myself and my body. I have never felt sickly and I certainly don't look it.

Please don't take anything I say as why you should become a vegetarian. There are many great reasons, but I think it is a decision that an individual should make. I want people to respect me for my beliefs and so I respect people for their beliefs. If anyone has any questions about being a vegetarian or reasons why people become vegetarians, I'll gladly offer insight for the conversation.

As a side note, I think if people were to stop eating all animals, that doesn't mean those animals will become extinct. There are a lot of animals that people don't eat now that aren't extinct.

..........

The rest of our family eats meat but we all respect her for her choice. That doesn't mean we don't tease her every so often. I personally don't think I could be a vegetarian but I have nothing against it.

I'm glad it offended her. Ok not really. But I have met MANY MANY vegetarians, including my aunt. A certain amount of fat doesn't mean you're going to balloon up or be any less healthy, but everybody needs some stored fat. That's what helps you to stay warm in the winter. Ever see a semi fat guy walking around when it's 20 degrees F out with no coat on? That's why. Wish I could do that. But my metabolism doesn't like fat. It kicks it's ass and shoves it out.

I can understand not eating something because you don't like it. That's why I hate tomato's and other disgusting fruits/vegies like cauliflower and the such.

Here's an interesting tid bit of information.

All muscle tissue is very high in protein, containing all of the essential amino acids. Muscle tissue is very low in carbohydrates. The fat content of meat can vary widely depending on the species and breed of animal, the anatomical part of its body, and the methods of butchering and cooking. Wild animals such as deer are typically leaner than farm animals, leading to the increasing popularity of game such as venison; however, centuries of breeding meat animals for size and fatness is being reversed by consumer demand for meat with less fat. Animal fat is relatively high in saturated fat and cholesterol, which have been linked to various health problems, including heart disease and arteriosclerosis.
Typical Meat Nutritional Content
from 110 grams (4 oz)Sourcecaloriesproteincarbsfatfish110–14020–25 g0 g1–5 gchicken breast16028 g0 g7 glamb25030 g0 g14 gsteak (beef)27530 g0 g18 gT-bone45025 g0 g35 g
Red meat, such as beef, pork, and lamb, contains many essential nutrients necessary for healthy growth and development in children, as well as for good health and well-being in adults. These nutrients include iron, zinc, and protein.[1] In fact, most meats contain a full complement of the amino acids required for the human diet. Fruits and vegetables, by contrast, are usually lacking several essential amino acids. It is for this reason that people who abstain from eating all meat must plan their diet to include sources of all the necessary amino acids.The table at right compares the nutritional content of several types of meat. While each kind of meat has about the same content of protein and carbohydrates, there is a very wide range of fat content. It is the additional fat that contributes most to the calorie content of meat, and to concerns about dietary health. A famous study, the Nurses' Health Study, followed about one-hundred-thousand female nurses and their eating habits. Nurses who ate the largest amount of animal fat were twice as likely to develop colon cancer as the nurses who ate the least amount of animal fat.

It's odd that some vegetarians don't consider fish a 'meat'.


There's some good and bad with meat. It's a give and take. I'm not criticizing anyone for not eating meats... but they do offer proteins and amino acids you can only find by eating a larger amount of fruits and vegetables to attain.

 

[Tim]

Ok, here is my view on the veggie, vegan diet craze.

History shows that man has always been omnivorous. Pick up any history book or go to any archeological dig and you will see that animals (fish, poultry, pork, etc.) we used as a food source. Even this isn’t disputed by strict vegans or vegetarians.

So then why are there so many vegetarians and vegans today? Because as a culture we can be. We grew up with other people doing our dirty work, like slaughtering the animals and preparing the meat for us. This was never the case in the past, except for the very wealthy and affluent. With this change in our culture, we have also removed out ability to stomach the sight of blood as we harvest livestock for food.
Taking the above into account, I would break down the population into two major categories. The first group consists of city folk, this group grew up in the city where they work at a job to make money to obtain everything they need to survive. They pay rent or a mortgage, buy their food at a super market, hire plumbers, electricians, masons, and anyone else to do the hands on work that they don’t want to do. Then there’s the second group who like my grandfather, built his home with the help of his community. He had a very large garden that was harvested, canned and stored to provide food all year long. He and his sons hunted deer, bear, turkey, squirrel and other wild game providing the meat for the family. Basically he and his family were self sufficient as was necessary living in the Adirondack Mountains.
My grandfather was representative of our forefathers in this country, people that had to be self sufficient. Being vegan was not a healthy option for them. They did not have the ability to run down to the nearest supermarket and pick up supplements like sesame seeds, nuts, fortified soy milk, and iron from dried fruit and fortified breakfast cereals. Their only source of B12 was from animal products.

This is why there are a growing number of vegans and vegetarians today. I personally don’t have anything against vegans or vegetarians as long as they are responsible people in what they do and what they convey to others. Just let me eat my meat in peace.


BTW I support PETA
People Eating Tasty Animals

 

[Sneakiecat]

I'm glad it offended her. Ok not really. But I have met MANY MANY vegetarians, including my aunt. A certain amount of fat doesn't mean you're going to balloon up or be any less healthy, but everybody needs some stored fat. That's what helps you to stay warm in the winter. Ever see a semi fat guy walking around when it's 20 degrees F out with no coat on? That's why. Wish I could do that. But my metabolism doesn't like fat. It kicks it's ass and shoves it out.

It's odd that some vegetarians don't consider fish a 'meat'.

There's some good and bad with meat. It's a give and take. I'm not criticizing anyone for not eating meats... but they do offer proteins and amino acids you can only find by eating a larger amount of fruits and vegetables to attain.

This is her sister again.

OK, I think you took my argument about body fat the wrong way. So, a fat man can walk around in the winter without a coat, but he is also probably walking around with clogged arteries. I am not saying that you shouldn't have any body fat, obviously a certain amount of body fat is good for a person, but ANYONE will tell that too much body fat is bad thing, even if you don't have to wear a coat in the winter. Plus, this doesn't really affect me considering I live in Florida and I can get by in winter with a hoodie.

There are different kinds of vegetarians, like I said before, I am a lacto-ovo vegetarian. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarian#Main_Varieties This should give you an idea about what kinds of categories there are for vegetarians.

Obviously someone like a bodybuilder shouldn't be a vegetarian. But again, that doesn't mean vegetarians aren't getting protein and aren't building muscles. Yes, you do get some proteins easier when you eat meat. But you also get a lot of vitamins and minerals from the fruits and vegetables that many omnivores don't like to eat.

Ok, here is my view on the veggie, vegan diet craze.

History shows that man has always been omnivorous. Pick up any history book or go to any archeological dig and you will see that animals (fish, poultry, pork, etc.) we used as a food source. Even this isn’t disputed by strict vegans or vegetarians.

BTW I support PETA
People Eating Tasty Animals

If you look in history there are vegetarian societies that have been around for thousands of years.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarian#History Also, while most societies DID eat meat, that didn't make up the majority of diet. Unlike today's society were the majority of a diet is made up of meat, primitive societies relied more heavily on fruits and vegetables to sustain their lifestyle. Meat was a supplement to their diet.

Everything in life is about moderation. People are omnivores for a reason. You can't sustain yourself on just meat, just like you really can't sustain yourself on just vegetables and fruits. I have nothing against people who eat meat, but I do think they should do it in moderation. There MANY unhealthy ways of eating. Yes, there are unhealthy vegetarians, but there are MILLIONS of unhealthy meat-eaters. So, before you criticize someone for the way they eat, perhaps you should look at the way you eat. Again, I am not saying that you should become a vegetarian, but I think everyone can eat better.

BTW I am not a member of PETA. I don't agree with their propaganda. No one can respect an organization that pushes their beliefs on other people. I only go on their website for recipes and stickers (only because I find them funny).

 

[BreakfastSurreal]

I think this argument is silly. You can be a healthy meat eater, and you can be a healthy vegetarian. There is no RIGHT or WRONG way. Some people stop eating meat for a little while, or have never really eaten that much red meat, so when they do their digestive systems can't handle the meat without making them feel sick. We are human beings, although we have evolved over time we are also the fastest creatures on earth to adapt to their surroundings. Humans also can't digest cellulose, which is found in almost every plant, but that deosn't mean we can't get nutrients from plants...We are adaptable and we can eat whatever we want

 

[Tim]

This is her sister again.


Everything in life is about moderation. People are omnivores for a reason. You can't sustain yourself on just meat, just like you really can't sustain yourself on just vegetables and fruits. I have nothing against people who eat meat, but I do think they should do it in moderation. There MANY unhealthy ways of eating. Yes, there are unhealthy vegetarians, but there are MILLIONS of unhealthy meat-eaters. So, before you criticize someone for the way they eat, perhaps you should look at the way you eat. Again, I am not saying that you should become a vegetarian, but I think everyone can eat better.

I agree with you 100% about moderation. There are way too many obese and unhealthy people in this world, especially in America. We have become a society of enablers. We enable people to sit at home on their fat asses watching hours of TV while taking their welfare checks (that they get because they are too fat to work) and buy fast food by the truck load.
I would be considered a healthy eater without going overboard. I'm 6'4" 195lbs, which puts me at the perfect weight for my height. I eat a wide variety of fruits and vegetables. I try to stay away from fast food because I know how bad that crap is. So I do eat healthy.

Now if you read through my post again, I don't criticize vegetarians as a group. There are extreme vegetarians just as there are extreme meat eaters. I have distain for both groups. I also wasn't pointing the "PETA" finger at you or anyone else. It was more of a separate thought. It's just that most of the time when you talk to a vegan; you are also talking to a starch supporter of PETA. The concept for PETA is a good thing. I believe that we should abolish inhumane practices and we should be kind to animals. But they do not have the same rights or equal footing as humans. PETA is way too radicalized these days.

 

[Sneakiecat]

[/color]
Now if you read through my post again, I don't criticize vegetarians as a group. There are extreme vegetarians just as there are extreme meat eaters. I have distain for both groups. I also wasn't pointing the "PETA" finger at you or anyone else. It was more of a separate thought. It's just that most of the time when you talk to a vegan; you are also talking to a starch supporter of PETA. The concept for PETA is a good thing. I believe that we should abolish inhumane practices and we should be kind to animals. But they do not have the same rights or equal footing as humans. PETA is way too radicalized these days.

I'm sorry if you took those comments to mean me specifically talking to you. I responded to your comments in kind of a general fashion about misconceptions people have with vegetarians. It just so happened that your comments made me think of them. I've spent years of my life (mainly in middle school and into high school) dealing with people who believe that I am the spawn of Satan because I don't eat meat. I guess my natural reaction to comments where I feel someone might be uninformed about vegetarianism is to defend myself. Anyway, I am glad there are other people out there who can accept moderation as an answer to this problem. Sometimes I don't think the argument is so much about not eating meat. It is about whether you have enough self control over what you eat to be responsible to yourself. Some people's answer is becoming a vegetarian, while others might just be generally eating healthier.

 

[TheOriginalJames]

This is her sister again.

OK, I think you took my argument about body fat the wrong way. So, a fat man can walk around in the winter without a coat, but he is also probably walking around with clogged arteries. I am not saying that you shouldn't have any body fat, obviously a certain amount of body fat is good for a person, but ANYONE will tell that too much body fat is bad thing, even if you don't have to wear a coat in the winter. Plus, this doesn't really affect me considering I live in Florida and I can get by in winter with a hoodie.

See now it's statements like that that really piss me off. Just because a guy has a bit of chub doesn't automatically man his arteries are clogged. Typical vegetarian defense.

(Kidding about the last part of that statement...)



John E... He worked for verizon for 27 years. Outside tech, ate lots of fast food high in greasy disgusting fat. He worked for my dad for 11 years.

TWO WEEKS before he was about to retire he had to have emergency quintuple bypasses.

Arteries clogged by fat from all the fast food he ate?

Nope, clogged from 99% nicotene. I heard no mention of how he needed to change his diet due to this surgery. Although now that he's retired I'm sure he has. But give me a break. I eat lots of fatty foods, and I'm underweight. Just because you eat fat doesn't mean it stays in your arteries and body.

 

[trope]

No offense to Leland, but he's very very skinny and he's one step off being a vegan from his vegetarianism. He may have a very high metabolism like I do, but I think he'd look slightly healthier (little bit more weight) if he ate meat... as an example.

Just a thought on that, James: Hardly. Le's 5'5", and his weight is well within healthy proportions for his height. He's slim, sure, but he's not "very very skinny" or sickly or anything. He also has a legitimate excuse for not using milk products: he's very lactose intolerant (a development that occured in early childhood, well before he was vegatarian).


I'm going to argue on a vegan diet, because I'm personally vegan, but most of this would apply to vegetarians too, less so to ovo-lacto vegetarians

The thing about being vegan (or vegetarian), is that you really have to do it properly, or it won't work. If you aren't completely conscious of the health risks and how to avoid them, anyone who attempts a veg diet is going to end up with iron definciency or very low levels of B12, or many other problems. It's so important to be completely aware of how to be a proper vegan (vegetarian).

The main health concerns that most people have about a vegan diet are: protein, calcium, iron, vitamin B12, and eating disorders (I'll explain that one in a minute).

For protein, there is a misconception that plants do not contain "complete" proteins. Most people believe that vegans would have to combine foods to get a full protein, but this is not true. Plants have the "complete" proteins needed in most common and easy-to-find vegetables (such as potatoes, rice, wheat and theoretically, corn, though the common corn most people eat is so different from actual corn that it contains hardly any nutritional benefits). There's a theory that animal proteins actually cause a higher chance of osteoporosis, because they contain sulfur (vegetable proteins, on the other hand, do not).

Calcium is very easily gained from leafy green vegetables (cabbage, spinach, kale, etc.), almonds, soy products, dried fruits, beans and many other things. Non-vegans should really be eating a lot of those things anyway.

Iron is one of the bigger ones that people point out in vegan diets. Iron deficiencies are actually often misdiagnosed by people themselves. Only doctors can diagnose an iron deficiency; it is a very serious disease. Vegans actually tend to have higher intakes of iron, it's just that plant iron is not quite as easily absorbed. Consuming a lot of vitamin C (which is something that most vegans consume a lot of) aids in iron absorption. Cooked spinach, soybeans, chickpeas, as well as dried apricots, raisons, fortified cereals, are all good sources of iron.

Vitamin B12 is very hard to get in a vegan diet naturally. There is no actual, nonfortified plant source of B12. However, many soy products are fortified with vitamin B12, and there are supplements available (Le and I take a sublingual B12 supplement called Vegan B12 by Veglife - more than 16000% over your daily necessary intake of B12! Although we do have to have it shipped to us from a friend in BC, it's worth it.)

Many people believe that veganism is linked to eating disorders, but it's actually the other way around. Many people with eating disorders (particularly anorexia) will claim to have a vegan diet to avoid eating. Most vegans will put effort into finding something to eat rather than refusing to eat altogether.

A lot of people are turned off of veganism because they perceive it as being too difficult, having to constantly check labels for things like casein and whatnot. It can be difficult if you're unwilling to learn which products are okay to eat and which are not. Things become easier after a while, once you begin to remember and don't have to check labels so much.

I'm vegan for mostly ethical reasons, which is probably the more common. The most common argument against this is the theory by Steven Davis which claims that more animals are killed by harvesting crops than in slaughterhouses. Gaverick Matheny offers a better rubuttal than I can, but I'll give you the summary: "Davis’s argument fails on three counts: first, Davis makes a mathematical error in using total rather than per capita estimates of animals killed; second, he focuses on the number of animals killed in production and ignores the welfare of these animals; and third, he does not count the number of animals who may be prevented from existing."

Veganism is not an unhealthy diet by any means. It would be nice if the world were totally vegan, but I don't see that happening any time soon. You all can eat your meat, and drink your milk and eat your eggs, because that's your choice. Being vegan is mine.

 

[TheOriginalJames]

Even for 5'5 he's not at his target weight for his age. Nowhere near it actually, of course neither am I. For the most part I attribute his lack of weight to the same factor as I do mine. Metabolism is off the charts.

 

[Sneakiecat]

See now it's statements like that that really piss me off. Just because a guy has a bit of chub doesn't automatically man his arteries are clogged. Typical vegetarian defense.

(Kidding about the last part of that statement...)



John E... He worked for verizon for 27 years. Outside tech, ate lots of fast food high in greasy disgusting fat. He worked for my dad for 11 years.

TWO WEEKS before he was about to retire he had to have emergency quintuple bypasses.

Arteries clogged by fat from all the fast food he ate?

Nope, clogged from 99% nicotene. I heard no mention of how he needed to change his diet due to this surgery. Although now that he's retired I'm sure he has. But give me a break. I eat lots of fatty foods, and I'm underweight. Just because you eat fat doesn't mean it stays in your arteries and body.

The vegetarian is busy so I thought I would chime in. I'm underweight too but that doesn't mean that I'll never have clogged arteries. A diet that is high in low-density cholesterol (the bad one) is one of the major causes of clogged arteries, along with smoking. Just because you know one guy that fat from fast food didn't give him trouble doesn't mean that fat isn't a major concern.

On a side note, being underweight doesn't mean you're healthy. I could very well develop the same problems that overweight people do (clogged arteries, diabetes) but I less likely to. I just happen to have a very fast metabolism. But there was a time (after I fainted) when my doctor was concerned that my fast metabolism could be caused by hyperthyroidism. It wasn't but it did lead to them finding a multinodular goiter, which I just had surgery for. Not exactly healthy on my part.