The Vanishing Middle Class

[SRC]

No, this is what has happened to Middle Class America

 

[BadBoy@TheWheel]

No, this is what has happened to Middle Class America

Wrong, this is what has happened to middle class America:

At some point, the middle class woound up with a few extra bucks, suddenly, opportunities open up, car companies make vehicles seemingly more affordable, finance companies convince them they can own a $400,000 home and they buy 50" Plasmas for every room in the house, every PS3 game they can find for Johnny, wife stays home and figures they have it made.

Bottom line, the middle class needs to learn to live at the middle class level again, and frankly the welathy, well they need to get accustomed to tuning it down a little too, if you haven't noticed, it's slipping away. At some point the "American Dream" turned into "American Fantasy" everyone thinks they need more.

Don't blame politics, gasoline, McCain, Palin, Obama, Biden me or anyone else for the middle class spending themselves into the poorhouse.

Next time you have an extra buck, stay home and save it, that's what my grandparents did, they didn't spend it all, they saved it all. They didn't buy a new vehicle every four years, buy a house whenever they felt like it, go out to eat every night. They lived BELOW thier means, and retired with enough money to outlive all of us. They were smart

 

[Alien Allen]

careful with the reality pitch there BadBoy...............

It don't fit the liberal mantra.

It is never anybodys fault you know.

We no longer have to be self reliant and use good sense.

The american dream is there. Just live like they are on fantasy island.

 

[Tim]

I agree with Evan on this one. Somewhere along the line the illusion of the family unit was tossed to the road side. Our system of values has taken a turn and pointed us in the direction of greed and want. I'm not sure that it can be attributed to anyone or any group of individuals. I think it's a natural progression of society, we moved from a agricultural to industrial to a technology based society. We have gone from a middle class that was accustomed to physical labor to one that tries to avoid it...

If living the lifestyle of the 50's and 60's is appealing to you, then that is something you need to create for yourself. Taking the path that Scott chose is a matter of personal preference. I for one am heading in the same direction....

 

[BadBoy@TheWheel]

I agree with Evan on this one. Somewhere along the line the illusion of the family unit was tossed to the road side. Our system of values has taken a turn and pointed us in the direction of greed and want. I'm not sure that it can be attributed to anyone or any group of individuals. I think it's a natural progression of society, we moved from a agricultural to industrial to a technology based society. We have gone from a middle class that was accustomed to physical labor to one that tries to avoid it...

If living the lifestyle of the 50's and 60's is appealing to you, then that is something you need to create for yourself. Taking the path that Scott chose is a matter of personal preference. I for one am heading in the same direction....

:clap:clap

There is a difference between being "fortunate" and "fortune filled"

We are fortunate, but what we do with that is the way we influence the up and coming generations.

My oldest son values the dollar, he knows what it has taken for us to get where we have gotten, and basically he earns everything he has.

About the only "frivelous" pleasure we have is still investment opportunity, our vacation property, our rental property.

I try to not put money where I cannot get a return, I just don't trust the future to take care of itself, that's the idealism that has gotten a lot of folks where they are, they roll the dice and wait for fate to take care of them.

 

[Minor Axis]

Answer Intruder's posts. I also posted a NY Times Article establishing this typical liberal mantra as bullshit. People (in all levels) have it better today then they ever did and that is FACT.

It's not a fact. As our manufacturing base has eroded, millions of good paying jobs have evaporated. Nothing has replaced those jobs for people who used to be able to find work right out of high school. Now they can go work at McDonalds. It's been going on for at least the last 30 years.

Actually this is a good argument for getting a better education, but when there has been a systematic push to outsource/export every possible job in the name of profit, most jobs are threatened and that includes research, accounting, a wide variety of skilled jobs that require higher education.

You my friend are the epitome of class envy--angry as hell that other people in your company (management) make more money than you and angry as hell that your salary has been slashed back to what it should be

Both you and Strauss of accused me of class envy. It's your attempt to discredit my arguments. Your absolutely positively wrong, but no surprise there. I don't begrudge successful people their success because they earned it. But I'll take offense when business people in authority manipulate the economic environment to their benefit and harm the majority of workers under them, in the names of profits and personal benefit. It's really hard for you to take a righteous stand when typically you're in here making excuses for them.

The only way this country's middle class will vanish is if liberals are able to spread their socialist bullshit. If the entire country were unionized we'd have an entire country of people suffering in mediocrity with no hope for anything better.

Your too late, it's all ready happening under the current business leadership. Your "liberalism" is the end of the world message is all most funny. Over the years, EVERY law and regulation put into place for workers has been at the hands of liberals.

 

[Minor Axis]

Don't blame politics, gasoline, McCain, Palin, Obama, Biden me or anyone else for the middle class spending themselves into the poorhouse.

I agree. :thumbup All to frequently over the last 20 years, I've seen large houses that appear empty cause the people inside got their dream house but can't afford to furnish it and both parents are working to stay in it. As far as making risky financial decisions I have no idea why we have gone on a collective spending spree that we really can't afford. I don't care if you ended up with huge equity in your house or not, what happened to common sense?

There are people in this forum who will argue that making home ownership easier is the root cause of our current crisis, but for every homeowner who should not have bought that house, there was a business person more than willing to allow the sale to go through. Funny now everyone in power is talking about re-regulation. Too bad, our politicians did not have the wisdom to leave those great depression protections in place.

I imagine the way it works is that after something bad happens, a new regulation is generated. That is how it happens in aviation as most regulations are written in blood. But I can see in finance, after a while someone starts complaining, "gee look how much money we could make if not for this stupid regulation". It only took 9 years from the passing of the 1999 Deregulation bill for something like our current crisis to pop up. The U.S. is not currently an example of un-regulated capitalism, but this is an example of where dumping regulations for profits gets us.

 

[Strauss]

It's not a fact. As our manufacturing base has eroded, millions of good paying jobs have evaporated. Nothing has replaced those jobs for people who used to be able to find work right out of high school. Now they can go work at McDonalds. It's been going on for at least the last 30 years.

Guess you forgot about those millions of service jobs that replaced the manufacturing ones. And, btw, many of the lost manufacturing jobs was the result of increased efficiency from modernizations of factories and to getting rid of the union slug sucking the life blood out of the corporation.
(The last part is not true but I just threw it in there because I know it will cause you to go into one of your liberal hissy fits. )

 

[Minor Axis]

Guess you forgot about those millions of service jobs that replaced the manufacturing ones. And, btw, many of the lost manufacturing jobs was the result of increased efficiency from modernizations of factories and to getting rid of the union slug sucking the life blood out of the corporation.
(The last part is not true but I just threw it in there because I know it will cause you to go into one of your liberal hissy fits. )

That's one thing the Republican Party never wants to talk about- quality employment. They talk numbers but they don't care if you have a sustainable job or you have a job that requires you to live with 10 other people to survive. And those service jobs as a rule SUCK and you know it. In fact at one point in this President's term they were trying to count McDonald's fast food type jobs as manufacturing! Slick Willie does not hold a candle to these guys.

Did you say unions?? :lala:

 

[Strauss]

That's one thing the Republican Party never wants to talk about- quality employment. They talk numbers but they don't care if you have a sustainable job or you have a job that requires you to live with 10 other people to survive. And those service jobs as a rule SUCK and you know it. In fact at one point in this President's term they were trying to count McDonald's fast food type jobs as manufacturing! Slick Willie does not hold a candle to these guys.

Did you say unions?? :lala:

The stats don't bear you out. That liberal plot was proven wrong years ago, you should really try and stay on top of the latest economic studies. The services jobs equaled and final exceed the pay and benefits of the manufacturing jobs lost. Not to mention that it is less hazardous, less toxic to the environment and generally healthier employment for the employee.
Unions supplied this bogus argument to the liberal politicians who, being good and bought mouth pieces, spouted it whenever a microphone was turned on. Of course and unfortunately for the union types, calm and cooler heads actually studied the situation and, as expected, the unions provided to be full of shit.

 

[Minor Axis]

The stats don't bear you out.

You can prove that if you'd like. And you know that manufacturing provides more strength to the economy while service jobs produce nothing.

 

[Strauss]

You can prove that if you'd like. And you know that manufacturing provides more strength to the economy while service jobs produce nothing.

How in the hell can you post that crap? Add more strength? Using what measure? Strength of what? You post sound bites as if they really mean something. Do you just willy-nilly accept that liberal crap that spoon feed to you or do you actually THINK about what is being said.

 

[Minor Axis]

How in the hell can you post that crap? Add more strength?

Manufacturing makes usable items. Service jobs cater to each other. We are all going to make a living catering to each other? Sending the majority of your manufacturing overseas along with the technical expertise is bad for any country. Think about the next time we get into a conflict and literally everything we use is made in China and there is a possibility that the war will be with China. You don't have a problem with that?

Businessweek: Manufacturing Jobs in Ohio: Two Views.

At the same time, those unable to get work in manufacturing probably wind up in lower-paying service jobs, Helper says. Coleman notes that neighbors and relatives laid off from local plants have lost their cars and homes as a result. "You used to make $25 to $30 an hour, and the only thing available to you now is $8 to $9 an hour," she says.

 

[Tim]

Any stable economy must have a good manufacturing base.

 

[Minor Axis]

It always amuses me when a political party says, lost your job due to industry transitions? no problem, we'll get you training and back on your feet in no time. Right. Even if good paying service jobs were available you'd be talking years and years to recover to the same pay scale you used to have. The sad fact is that for most of those people working in manufacturing, they will never find the same pay in a service job. They will never recover the same standard of living they used to have. Globalization means equalization. The workers in the developed countries are going to take the hit. The workers in the developing countries will reap the windfall.

 

[Strauss]

Think about the next time we get into a conflict and literally everything we use is made in China and there is a possibility that the war will be with China. You don't have a problem with that?

I'm only addressing this part of your post because the remainder isn't worthy of a response. BTW, the part that I'm not addressing, would cause a first year econ major to giggle at the complete lack of knowledge that you have on the subject matter

Now addressing the rest of the idiocy..........so we can't go to war with China because they produce the crappola found at Wal-Mart? When did we start buying our heavy cruisers, F-18s, Bradley Fighting Vehicles, M-1 tanks etc etc from China? The ability to produce a cheap plastic trash can doesn't make China anything other than a cheap trash can maker.

 

[Alien Allen]

I think Strauss got ya Minor. We have had a lot of manufacturing leave but there is plenty left. Where I live there was a major change in tooling to manufacture planes during the war at Willow Run. We would do it again if push came to shove.

 

[BadBoy@TheWheel]

There will be plenty coming back too.

Give it a year or so and let the offshore drilling boom hit, we'll be employing children......But don't worry, we'll make sure they are union

 

[Minor Axis]

I'm only addressing this part of your post because the remainder isn't worthy of a response. BTW, the part that I'm not addressing, would cause a first year econ major to giggle at the complete lack of knowledge that you have on the subject matter

Now addressing the rest of the idiocy..........so we can't go to war with China because they produce the crappola found at Wal-Mart? When did we start buying our heavy cruisers, F-18s, Bradley Fighting Vehicles, M-1 tanks etc etc from China? The ability to produce a cheap plastic trash can doesn't make China anything other than a cheap trash can maker.

Maybe you should stop arguing with me just because you like to argue and take a realistic approach once in a while? China makes a heck of a lot more than our trash cans. They have become The World's Top Tech Exporter and this article is from 2006. Who cares if it's piddly stuff like FOOD, MEDICINE, INDUSTRIAL SUPPLIES, COMPUTERS. :smiley24: And it's only gotten worse since then.

If I have to spell it out for you, in a war, all of the items we would normally rely upon to make our economy work, not just military vehicles, would suddenly disappear.

And as I work in the aviation industry, I'm familiar that almost every (if not all) airline in the country who used to do heavy checks on their aircraft, I'm talking about taking airplanes mostly apart, which used to be done in the U.S., is now down overseas. Along with this exporting of manufacturing jobs is the exporting of the technical expertise that goes with doing the job.

I think Strauss got ya Minor. We have had a lot of manufacturing leave but there is plenty left. Where I live there was a major change in tooling to manufacture planes during the war at Willow Run. We would do it again if push came to shove.

Ya do, really? In 10-20 years after a technology leaves the country, do you think they'll be anyone here who still knows how to make it? Maybe, maybe not... the manufacturing facility has to exist and you have to have knowledgeable people to run it and work in it.

 

[Strauss]

If I have to spell it out for you, in a war, all of the items we would normally rely upon to make our economy work, not just military vehicles, would suddenly disappear.

Please identify one product that is ONLY made in China and not anywhere else in the world. (Beside other Chinese people )

Computers? No, Japan, Vietnam, Indonesia.

Medicine? No made all over the world and MOSTLY in the US.

Food? No, China has to import food to feed itself. We export more, after feeding ourselves, then China grows.

Industrial supplies? You got me there! Back to the plastic trash can, Yup, we would suffer a shortage of plastic trash cans. Oh my God how will we cope!

BTW, if you had really bothered to read the article it doesn't state that the US doesn't make the products identified just that China makes more. You do understand the difference don't you? You claim we would not have these items, yet the article says we are the second largest producer. In other words, you stuck your foot in your mouth and you don't realize it.