The Vanishing Middle Class

[Minor Axis]

Yep, you heard it here! The Vanishing Middle Class

NO STUDIES are necessary to determine what has happened to the middle class (``No middle ground," Ideas, Sept. 17). All that's needed is a memory.

In the 1950s and '60s, a factory foreman or insurance salesman would have a wife who didn't need to work. He could afford to live in a neighborhood with good schools, could take his family on vacation every year or two, buy a new car maybe every three years, send his kids to college without getting into debt, and he could look forward to a secure and comfortable retirement.

That was middle-class life. Today, it's the life of the rich.

The middle class is disappearing today because George Bush gave their money to his fellow top-5-percenters.

And the reason Bush and his pals have such contempt for the rest of us is that we let it happen.

The only correction I'll make is that the process started before Bush Jr, but he helped it accelerate nicely after Reagan got the ball rolling.

If you're 15-30 years old, you have a vested interest in this Presidential election. First of all there are no more good jobs to be had out of high school. Domestic manufacturing is decimated, all shipped overseas, with the technology along with it, I might add. A source at Target (the store) verified that virtually none of their products are manufactured in the U.S. Secondly when you graduate from college with an A average you'll be competing against thousands of other A average students for the very small pool of the good paying jobs left in this country. Got a B or a C, just head for McDonalds. The "A" crowd will either catch the brass ring and live the high life, or you'll be one of the majority, relegated to a mediocre job. The competition will be fun. :smiley24:

It's time for the American Public to wake up. It's time to demand a government that is responsive to the majority of citizens, not just the select few. Now I'll sit back and wait for the local yahoos to exclaim how I got it all wrong.

opcorn2:

 

[Alien Allen]

I think I gotta call BS on ya Minor

More class envy crap

The top 5% did not have anything given to them. They were able to keep what they earned.

I can look at my employees and I guarantee you their life style is richer than those who worked for us 50 years ago.

Instead of whining about some rich person keeping what they earn you should put your energy towards govt returning to what it was originally meant to do. It was never meant to be a cradle to grave safety net. This bull shit idea is part of what has ruined this country as people give so damn much money to local, state and fed govt that they expect something back. That would be great if there was a good return but the morons who run the govt piss it all away so you get back pennies on the dollar. If we kept the damn money to begin with we could afford to do some of the things that we rely on govt to do.

As to the issue of both parents working it typically is due to a desire to have more. My wife did not work until the kids were in school. It cost us but that was our priority. Sure some people need the dual income. But there are just as many that want all the toys. There are jobs out there but the spoiled brats being raised by the I, Me, Mine generation of the 60's and 70's are not willing to start from the bottom up. They feel that deserve more.

Well that is a start for a response anyway

 

[Minor Axis]

The first Yahoo has arrived! <--see smiling when I said it.

You're going to have to come up with something better than "class envy".

You're saying this statement is false?
In the 1950s and '60s, a factory foreman or insurance salesman would have a wife who didn't need to work. He could afford to live in a neighborhood with good schools, could take his family on vacation every year or two, buy a new car maybe every three years, send his kids to college without getting into debt, and he could look forward to a secure and comfortable retirement.

Are you denieing that U.S. domestic manufacturing has been decimated?

Are you implying that the U.S. work force is not dominated by two working parents and latch key kids?

Bottom line, I'm still living pretty good (until my company goes under :smiley24, got my money out of the stock market, and I don't envie the rich their money, just don't take away middle class jobs to make yourself rich. And don't support a government who supports such policies.

Official Notice:This reply meets the Strauss standard. Make sure smiley attached to any response that may offend. Then laugh it off.

 

[Alien Allen]

The first Yahoo has arrived! <--see smiling when I said it.

You're going to have to come up with something better than "class envy".

You're saying this statement is false?
In the 1950s and '60s, a factory foreman or insurance salesman would have a wife who didn't need to work. He could afford to live in a neighborhood with good schools, could take his family on vacation every year or two, buy a new car maybe every three years, send his kids to college without getting into debt, and he could look forward to a secure and comfortable retirement.

Are you denieing that U.S. domestic manufacturing has been decimated?

Are you implying that the U.S. work force is not dominated by two working parents and latch key kids?

Bottom line, I'm still living pretty good (until my company goes under :smiley24, got my money out of the stock market, and I don't envie the rich their money, just don't take away middle class jobs to make yourself rich. And don't support a government who supports such policies.

Official Notice:This reply meets the Strauss standard. Make sure smiley attached to any response that may offend. Then laugh it off.

Hell you can try to offend me all you like. As Strauss and Mulder will attest I thrive on it

so you don't like the idea of it being called class envy? well what is it then when people want to take away money from the rich to spread out to the poor. That is socialism at its purest form IMO.

I am not rich. I am very middle class. I am well aware of the manufacturing sector leaving in droves. Hell my own industry is down 50% in the last 4 years due to the economy and our industry being replaced but another option. things change. years ago we were probably considered a nation of farmers. then manufacturing took over.

Are you implying that the U.S. work force is not dominated by two working parents and latch key kids?

No I never said that or implied that. I said a percentage of those do that to live a better lifestyle beyond what one earner could provide. If the middle class person did not have to give away 30-40% of what they earn in taxes both would not have to work.

 

[Minor Axis]

Bottom line the Middle Class is vanishing, due to economic factors but also because of business practices pioneered by greedy bastards and government policies that support the bastards. Most of the savings from sending jobs overseas did not go to the consumer. Most went into the pockets of the perps. There is absolutely no loyalty to the U.S. worker when it comes to maximizing profits. YOU ARE EXPENDABLE.

 

[Alien Allen]

Bottom line the Middle Class is vanishing, due to economic factors but also because of business practices pioneered by greedy bastards and government policies that support the bastards. Most of the savings from sending jobs overseas did not go to the consumer. Most went into the pockets of the perps. There is absolutely no loyalty to the U.S. worker when it comes to maximizing profits. YOU ARE EXPENDABLE.

Works both ways. There is no loyalty to customers. We are a fast food nation that wants everything on the cheap. My company used to have customers that would never question what we charged. They were loyal and knew we were honest and would not screw them. These same people now shop prices. They are used to everything being on sale and dickering for lower prices. The consumers are as much the problem as anything. They demand more for less. If you ran a business and been around long enough you would see that.

 

[siasl]

Bottom line the Middle Class is vanishing, due to economic factors but also because of business practices pioneered by greedy bastards and government policies that support the bastards. Most of the savings from sending jobs overseas did not go to the consumer. Most went into the pockets of the perps. There is absolutely no loyalty to the U.S. worker when it comes to maximizing profits. YOU ARE EXPENDABLE.

i maintain that part of this -or rather, this trend is accelerated by the - movement of captialism onto the world stage.....it has revealed, imo, that, from the standpoint of loyalty or "ownership", america is just another marketplace....and in some ways, a supremely well developed one that required little maintance from a global perspective.

inferring that maintance must come from within

so when you say that young voters need to pay particular attention to their right to vote, i agree completely....current conservative economic thinking (which is just a new and improved version of the trickle down theory, something that might....MIGHT...have held a bit of water 30 years ago, when we could claim economic and political leadership of the free world....and anybody else who wanted to play with us....because it could be argued that we were, for the most part, still the guys who "owned" captialism....and as good captialists, we were willing to share it....for a price.) is, imo, completely out of date in a global economic framework....mostly because nothing "trickles down" anymore....it trickles sideways...or at least a sizable portion does....into the coffers of companies that may be u.s based still, and pay some taxes, but have a global perspective, presence, and bank account.

so long as our government still sides with these guys, imagining that somehow, they are still "ours" and give a rat's ass about any american economic implications that go beyond preserving their marketplace in the states, there will be little internal maintance of our solvency, imo.

i mean, the bottom line is that free market enterprise in an ECONOMIC system, not a system of government....it could care less what kind of government it operates under...so long as there exists enough economic opprotunity, social opprotunites (freedom) is secondary...the province of government.

this is something, imo, american politics seems to have backwards, and something that has contributed to the weakening of both our social, and economic, values.

 

[Strauss]

Official Notice:This reply meets the Strauss standard. Make sure smiley attached to any response that may offend. Then laugh it off.

You truly are humorless; what a truly wretched life you must lead. Based upon your posts and the threads you create depression must be a big part of your life.

 

[Alien Allen]

You truly are humorless; what a truly wretched life you must lead. Based upon your posts and the threads you create depression must be a big part of your life.

I think it is the liberal mantra frankly

They really do seem to thrive on preaching doom and gloom

 

[Minor Axis]

You truly are humorless; what a truly wretched life you must lead. Based upon your posts and the threads you create depression must be a big part of your life.

Guess again. And you Mr. Just Kidding are offended? After all it's the standard you set in this forum.

I think it is the liberal mantra frankly
They really do seem to thrive on preaching doom and gloom

You're honestly going to accuse liberals of cornering the market on doom and gloom? How about acknowledging that all political movements use this tactic when they are not happy with what is going on? Lets skip back 16 years to the Clinton Presidency. Which party screamed for 8 years?

I'll make a bet with anyone in this forum. If Obama wins, the day after, who will be in here preaching doom and gloom? Come on be honest.

 

[Strauss]

Guess again. And you Mr. Just Kidding are offended? After all it's the standard you set in this forum.

Don't confuse my sympathy for you with being offended.

I'll make a bet with anyone in this forum. If Obama wins, the day after, who will be in here preaching doom and gloom? Come on be honest.

Why wait for the election? If Obama wins there will socialism in the guise of "change". But the country needs the cathartic effect that a one term Obama presidency will provide.

 

[Devil]

That sucks, life is too expensive, especially in America.

 

[IntruderLS1]

Yep, you heard it here! The Vanishing Middle Class

NO STUDIES are necessary to determine what has happened to the middle class (``No middle ground," Ideas, Sept. 17). All that's needed is a memory.

In the 1950s and '60s, a factory foreman or insurance salesman would have a wife who didn't need to work. He could afford to live in a neighborhood with good schools, could take his family on vacation every year or two, buy a new car maybe every three years, send his kids to college without getting into debt, and he could look forward to a secure and comfortable retirement.

That was middle-class life. Today, it's the life of the rich.

The middle class is disappearing today because George Bush gave their money to his fellow top-5-percenters.


It's time for the American Public to wake up. It's time to demand a government that is responsive to the majority of citizens, not just the select few. Now I'll sit back and wait for the local yahoos to exclaim how I got it all wrong.

I'm not around much, so I can't really argue with you as much as I'd like, but I do feel the need to clear you up on something here.

The middle class guy you're talking about from the 60's was VERY different in terms of lifestyle than his modern day counterpart.

-He lived in a 3 bedroom, 1 bathroom, 1300 square foot house that he cooled with open windows and a fan.
-His family always ate at home, and packed their own lunches
-They got around with a single, affordable family car
-They had a single, community, non-cable TV set
-If they had to make a call, they used the house phone, or a pay phone
-They filled a single 40 gallon trash can a week
-During holidays, they exchaged personal gifts, and only what they could afford
-If they couldn't afford something, they didn't borrow money to get it now, and end up paying three times for it.

Compare that to the "middle class" family of today:

-2300 spare foot home that is climate controlled 24/7.
-Everybody has their own SUV
-Flat panel TV's w/ gaming systems and DVD players
-Eat out 3 times a day
-Fill to the brim, three gargantuan trash cans a week with packaging from crap they couldn't tell you tomorrow where it all came from.
-Each holiday must be bigger and better than the last.
-Cell phones, iPods, convienience devices, etc...
And the list continues

The middle class of yesterday may have lived better, but it was because they were MORE responsible, and LESS selfish. The priorities were correct, and they raised hard working, respectful children because they had an actual mother in the home.

I used to be a part of the rat race. We had a ton of nice stuff, and our friends were jealous. Last year, when we had our first child, I decided that enough was enough, and we were going to raise him right. My wife was going to stay home come hell or high water.

I sold my sports car. I turned off the cable TV. I chopped back my cell phones to emergency use only. We stopped eating out, and started packing my lunch. We only take our trashcans out about one a month because we stopped filling them with the wrappers of B.S. we couldn't even remember a month later. We bought a smaller home than we wanted, but in reality it's 10x what we really need, and for the three of us (almost four now), it's more square footage than I grew up with.

My wife now stays at home. Our children are not being raised by uncaring strangers. We run a budget surplus every month. We eat dinner as a family, and actually talk to eachother again. The stress is gone from the household, and again, our friends and neighbors comment on how "lucky" we are to have life so good.

When people lie dying on their deathbeds, nobody ever regrets not having more nice things in life. Instead, the lament, and morn the lost opportunites to spend time enjoying life and family. They question the wisdom of chasing full trash cans instead of playing with their children.

I'm a utility worker. I don't make a fortune, and I'm certainly not in the top 5% of wage earners in the U.S., but I live a very full, active, happy, middle class lifestyle.

Politics doesn't have anything to do with the happiness of the modern middle class American. Personal responsibility is what it all boils down to. If anybody looks to the middle class with contempt, it should be because they stress themselves out on purpose, and then cry like spoiled babies about it not being fair.

 

[Strauss]

I'm not around much, so I can't really argue with you as much as I'd like, but I do feel the need to clear you up on something here.

The middle class guy you're talking about from the 60's was VERY different in terms of lifestyle than his modern day counterpart.

-He lived in a 3 bedroom, 1 bathroom, 1300 square foot house that he cooled with open windows and a fan.
-His family always ate at home, and packed their own lunches
-They got around with a single, affordable family car
-They had a single, community, non-cable TV set
-If they had to make a call, they used the house phone, or a pay phone
-They filled a single 40 gallon trash can a week
-During holidays, they exchaged personal gifts, and only what they could afford
-If they couldn't afford something, they didn't borrow money to get it now, and end up paying three times for it.

Compare that to the "middle class" family of today:

-2300 spare foot home that is climate controlled 24/7.
-Everybody has their own SUV
-Flat panel TV's w/ gaming systems and DVD players
-Eat out 3 times a day
-Fill to the brim, three gargantuan trash cans a week with packaging from crap they couldn't tell you tomorrow where it all came from.
-Each holiday must be bigger and better than the last.
-Cell phones, iPods, convienience devices, etc...
And the list continues

The middle class of yesterday may have lived better, but it was because they were MORE responsible, and LESS selfish. The priorities were correct, and they raised hard working, respectful children because they had an actual mother in the home.

I used to be a part of the rat race. We had a ton of nice stuff, and our friends were jealous. Last year, when we had our first child, I decided that enough was enough, and we were going to raise him right. My wife was going to stay home come hell or high water.

I sold my sports car. I turned off the cable TV. I chopped back my cell phones to emergency use only. We stopped eating out, and started packing my lunch. We only take our trashcans out about one a month because we stopped filling them with the wrappers of B.S. we couldn't even remember a month later. We bought a smaller home than we wanted, but in reality it's 10x what we really need, and for the three of us (almost four now), it's more square footage than I grew up with.

My wife now stays at home. Our children are not being raised by uncaring strangers. We run a budget surplus every month. We eat dinner as a family, and actually talk to eachother again. The stress is gone from the household, and again, our friends and neighbors comment on how "lucky" we are to have life so good.

When people lie dying on their deathbeds, nobody ever regrets not having more nice things in life. Instead, the lament, and morn the lost opportunites to spend time enjoying life and family. They question the wisdom of chasing full trash cans instead of playing with their children.

I'm a utility worker. I don't make a fortune, and I'm certainly not in the top 5% of wage earners in the U.S., but I live a very full, active, happy, middle class lifestyle.

Politics doesn't have anything to do with the happiness of the modern middle class American. Personal responsibility is what it all boils down to. If anybody looks to the middle class with contempt, it should be because they stress themselves out on purpose, and then cry like spoiled babies about it not being fair.

Okay the above will NOT fly......no depression and self-flagellation, no blaming the capitalist systems, no blaming conservatives, no blaming Bush but you do have the gall and I mean the GALL to take responsibility for you and your family; to accept that you are the first line of defense, that you make of your life what you wish it to be, that you decide how your family shall live and mode of that life style.

Nope the above post just will not fly.

(Congratulations on your choices, the decision to man up and take control of what is rightfully yours :thumbup)

 

[Minor Axis]

Don't confuse my sympathy for you with being offended.

Telling someone they live a wretched existence is your version of sympathy, really now. It's easy to misread an angry post.

 

[Strauss]

Telling someone they live a wretched existence is your version of sympathy, really now. It's easy to misread an angry post.

No its the truth, the sympathy is for you living that way.

 

[Minor Axis]

No its the truth, the sympathy is for you living that way.

Sounds more like anger or scorn on the receiving end. My mistake.

 

[Strauss]

Sounds more like anger or scorn on the receiving end. My mistake.

We are use to your mistakes, you seem to post a lot of them.

 

[IntruderLS1]

Any thoughts Minor?

 

[Fox Mulder]

Telling someone they live a wretched existence is your version of sympathy, really now. It's easy to misread an angry post.

Answer Intruder's posts. I also posted a NY Times Article establishing this typical liberal mantra as bullshit. People (in all levels) have it better today then they ever did and that is FACT. You post no facts to support your assertion. Facts would be things like % if people who own their own home--# of people living in a home, number of cars owned, etc., etc., etc., and when those things all indicate far more affluence today then the 50s and 60s.

You my friend are the epitome of class envy--angry as hell that other people in your company (management) make more money than you and angry as hell that your salary has been slashed back to what it should be--which is what a free market will bear rather than the extorted salary you earned, which hurt the working class people you pretend to care for more than anything any "rich" guy ever did (and that's you collectively--the unions members).

The only way this country's middle class will vanish is if liberals are able to spread their socialist bullshit. If the entire country were unionized we'd have an entire country of people suffering in mediocrity with no hope for anything better.

So again--don't post union propoganda--post actual facts that support your contention, not opinion.