The South

[TheOriginalJames]

Oh, Ive been down to the south a few times, Myrtle Beach and all of that and people were very nice. I think you encounter most of the backwardness when you go into the more rural areas. Hell...travel down to southern Pennsylvania and its like you just stepped foot in the farthest hick corner of the world.

Well that's what I meant. My sister in law is from a town called Andalusia in Alabama. it's about an hour north of the gulf. They (my brother and her) tell us stories about her brothers and father... holy crap. Racist as all hell.

 

[TheOriginalJames]

That's some great reverse racism. I love it when african americans, who nowadays enjoy more benefits (like scholarships for just being african americans), will preach equal rights and bitch out any white guy who mumbles any sort of racial commentary.

Hypocritical nowadays is what this nation and some african americans are.

I should also include that caucasions can be equally hypocritical...

 

[dt3]

I don't know, I think most of it is a bunch of crap. The book was probably written by a southerner who twisted some things around and came up with his own 'facts'.

Here's links:

It was New England which invented the idea of secession; first in objection to the Louisiana Purchase in 1803 doubling the nation’s land area, and then in 1814 when New England wanted to trade with enemy England during the War of 1812.
Read the Hartford Convention links below

"In 1641 Massachusettes became the first colony to legalize the slave trade, followed by Connecticut in 1650."
Slavery and the Making of America . Timeline | PBS

The Confederate flag, designed to resemble the cross favored by Jesus’ disciple St. Andrew, as well as the ancient flag of Scotland, did not fly over any slave ships.
Black Rebel

"Professor Thomas J. Jackson, out of uniform for nearly ten years, was such a devoted Unionist that he almost came to blows with a man in Lexington, Virginia, when the rabble-rouser pulled an American flag down from the county courthouse in early April. In July Jackson would acquire the nickname of Stonewall."
I couldn't find a reference to this

Every state added after the original 13 colonies was acquired while a Southerner was president.
I'll do the research on this one tomorrow, I'm tired right now

The Hartford Convention was called by Federalists in Massachussetts, Connecticut, New Hampshire and Vermont in December 1814. One of the Convention's recommendations was amending the Constitution so slaves would no longer be counted as people.
Hartford Convention - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hartford Convention - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In November 1864, a blockade-runner ship was captured by the Union off the coast of Texas carrying cotton. The ship had just finished running guns into Texas in exchange for cotton. Here's the kicker: "Papers were found onboard indicating that one of the partners owning the ship was Willim Sprague, a former Union army colonel, former governor of Rhode Island, sitting United States senator from Rhode Island, and son-in-law of Salmon Chase, the current chief justice and former treasury secretary."
Abraham Lincoln's Classroom: Library (go to Edit, Find and search for "Texas Adventure)

"Confederate President Jefferson Davis had a black foster son..."
New doubts over the old school name | csmonitor.com (3rd paragraph)

In 1854, Lincoln gave a speech calling for the return of blacks to Africa, saying "we cannot make them our equals."
I couldn't find this one, however here's a speech from 1858.
Fourth Debate (first paragraph of the speech)

The Vatican formally endorsed the Confederacy. Pope Pius IX and Jefferson Davis became close friends.
Jefferson Davis, religion, and the politics of recognition. - Encyclopedia.com (Edit, Find, search for "Pius")

"At Harvard University's Memorial Hall there is a wall of honor for graduates who died in the nation's wars. Included among the names are one Nazi, but none of the 164 Harvard alumni who died in combat for the Confederacy."
REBEL WAR DEAD HAUNT HARVARD CONSCIENCE A RENOVATION HAS REVIVED THE QUESTION OF WHETHER TO MEMORIALIZE CONFEDERATE ALUMNI.

Abraham Lincoln was quoted as saying "It is one of the best tunes I have ever heard.", in reference to "Dixie".
Dixie (song) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In 1996, Olympic officials in Atlanta heard a girl practicing her routine to "Dixie". "They forced her to change her entire routine lest anyone be offended."
I think this one is wrong. This is all I could find about it:
Grand Opening (search for "Dixie")

"Only one Northerner, Elbridge Gerry of Massachusettes, joined the South in calling for a Bill of Rights."
Elbridge Gerry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (3 delegates refused to sign the Constitution without a Bill of Rights. The other two were George Mason and Edmund Randolph, both from Virginia)

The South (Virginia), elected the first black governor in US history
Douglas Wilder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

One of the first major slave owners was black
Anthony Johnson (American Colonial) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Robert E. Lee once said: "In an enlightened age, there are few I believe, but what will acknowlede that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil in any country."
Robert E. Lee on Slavery

 

[All Else Failed]

None of this really changes that they were slave holders.

 

[Sneakiecat]

Who? Southerners in general? The politicians involved?

 

[dt3]

None of this really changes that they were slave holders.

My point is that there's two sides to every story. I've never been to college, but I did take a couple of Pre-IB history classes and 1 Dual Enrollment American History class in High School, and I never read about any of these things, even though they're well-documented facts for the most part.

-"Rhode Island merchants controlled between 60 and 90 percent of the American trade in African slaves"
-"by 1774, the slave population of RI was 6.3%, nearly twice as high as any other New England colony"
History of Rhode Island - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

-"nearly half of the Africans transported by Rhode Islanders were trafficked illegally, by ships operating in defiance of a 1787 state law prohibiting residents of the state

from trading in slaves, federal statutes of

1794 and 1800 barring Americans from carrying slaves to ports outside the United States, and the 1807 Congressional act abolishing the transatlantic slave trade."

-Brown University (Ivy League school in Rhode Island) was originally to be called the University of Rhode Island, until I major slave trading family (the Browns) became their biggest benefactor.

[URL]http://brown.edu/Research/Slavery_Justice/documents/SlaveryAndJustice.pdf[/URL] (page 10 and page 14)​

-The New York newspaper The Continental Monthly said in 1862:
"The number of persons engaged in the slave trade and the amount of capital embarked in it exceed our powers of calculation. The city of New York has been, until late, the principal port in the world for this infamous commerce; although the cities of Boston and Portland are second to her."
[URL]http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/pageviewer?frames=1&coll=moa&view=50&root=%2Fmoa%2Fcont%2Fcont0001%2F&tif=00095.TIF&cite=http%3A%2F%2Fcdl.library.cornell.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmoa%2Fmoa-cgi%3Fnotisid%3DABR1802-0001-18[/URL]
As a side note, the same magazine also had an article titled "What to do with the Darkies"
[URL]http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/sgml/moa-idx?notisid=ABR1802-0001&byte=59201921[/URL]​

I'm not saying the South was right on the issue of slavery, I doubt anybody would. But the North was no better.​

​

 

[White2000GT]

None of this really changes that they were slave holders.

Newsflash!!! There were slave owners up North at one time as well! Funny how most Northerners conveniently overlook that fact.

 

[Tim]

Being from PA, I don't ever remember learning about the civil war being about slavery. Sure, that was one of the objectives 17 months after it started, but it wasn't why the war started. Actually it was the south that started the war by attacking fort Sumter in SC. There were 11 southern states that wanted to start the Confederate States of America, well that didn't jive with the rest of the states.

As far as slave ownership goes, Yes the north had slaves. I learned that in school, and I also learned that when President Lincoln and congress oppessed the expansion of slavery, there were plenty of people against him, Northern and Southern.

 

[Boomer]

I just moved from the north to the south, my family came from the south, but I grew up in the north. The people down here have a reputation, southern hospitalty, bullcrap. I haven't met a person who was nice to me. I hate it here and want to go back north. The land is beautiful, though. By the way my family, through research I found, worked on the underground railroad and never owned slaves, yet, in a college course I took on African American history, they made me out to be a bad guy. I ended up having to drop the course. I don't think this had much to do with the post, but I needed to say that. Thank you.

Its cause yer a yank!:tongue:

 

[All Else Failed]

Newsflash!!! There were slave owners up North at one time as well! Funny how most Northerners conveniently overlook that fact.

I knew that, but that was going out the door pretty fast and was very limited compared to the south.

 

[Boomer]

Im pretty sure some northerners got payed the off south and their slaves as well. Damn yanks.

 

[All Else Failed]

Of course they did. I'm talking about the scale of the institution of slavery in each region.

 

[dt3]

I knew that, but that was going out the door pretty fast and was very limited compared to the south.

The Northerners still dominated the slave trade, even after slave trading was made illegal by Congress (slave trading was illegal, however slavery was still legal afterwards). So, I'm not saying that slavery is good. But the North was breaking the law and the South was not.

 

[dt3]

There were 11 southern states that wanted to start the Confederate States of America, well that didn't jive with the rest of the states.

I don't know how much of my previous posts you read, but the North started the idea of secession during the War of 1812 (they wanted to keep trading with Britain), which is something I only learned recently. I like how the North loved the idea then, but 50 years later were completely opposed to it.

 

[All Else Failed]

The Northerners still dominated the slave trade, even after slave trading was made illegal by Congress (slave trading was illegal, however slavery was still legal afterwards). So, I'm not saying that slavery is good. But the North was breaking the law and the South was not.

How was the south not breaking the law? They still had slaves after the slave ban too...

 

[dt3]

How was the south not breaking the law? They still had slaves after the slave ban too...

The one that came AFTER the war started? The one that was given by a government they didn't recognize as their own? The same one that didn't free northern slaves, only southern ones? Then yes, they broke the law.

 

[Sneakiecat]

All states banned slave trade by 1798 (a few were later repealed). Slavery wasn't banned completely until December 1865.

 

[Tim]

I don't know how much of my previous posts you read, but the North started the idea of secession during the War of 1812 (they wanted to keep trading with Britain), which is something I only learned recently. I like how the North loved the idea then, but 50 years later were completely opposed to it.

I have read all the posts.

It may have been 50 years later, but think about it, the US was still in it's infancy and things were changing all the time. To talk about secession and to take it a step further and attack a US military installation are far from the same.
Whether the north traded slaves, had slaves or condoned having slaves. That wasn't the cause of the civil war. It was the south wanting it's own independence.

Like I said before, I don't have any illusions that the north was without fault. Both sides deserve blame, but, and this is the big BUT. The war is over, the country is united and we are ONE NATION. There are still way too many southerners that hang on to it... let it go, it's in the past. It's time to give up the union jack... you no longer have any ships to fly it on....

 

[dt3]

I have read all the posts.

It may have been 50 years later, but think about it, the US was still in it's infancy and things were changing all the time. To talk about secession and to take it a step further and attack a US military installation are far from the same.
Whether the north traded slaves, had slaves or condoned having slaves. That wasn't the cause of the civil war. It was the south wanting it's own independence.

Like I said before, I don't have any illusions that the north was without fault. Both sides deserve blame, but, and this is the big BUT. The war is over, the country is united and we are ONE NATION. There are still way too many southerners that hang on to it... let it go, it's in the past. It's time to give up the union jack... you no longer have any ships to fly it on....

Why shouldn't we be able to remember our history/heritage in the open? Isn't studying history the best way to avoid repeating mistakes of the past?

 

[Tim]

Why shouldn't we be able to remember our history/heritage in the open? Isn't studying history the best way to avoid repeating mistakes of the past?

You should, and I think it's extremely important to know the past.... lest you are doomed to repeat it. My generalization was not aimed at you per say, it was more a statement to the people that still act as if the war isn't over yet... people that care if your northern or southern, people that still fly the union jack above the stars and stripes, people who are intolerant in general. Those are the people I was referring.