The Patriots In Exile Club 11/5/2008- really?

[Tim]

:willy_nilly::willy_nilly: I would argue how you can't see that? National health care he is pushing for is DEFINITELY socialism.

It is NOT socialism, it is a social program run within our democracy. Huge difference. Having socialist programs like Medicare, Social security, Medicaid, welfare, etc. does not make the country socialist. Our country is so fucking far from socialism it's pathetic. There is a gap between the poor and the rich that grows larger every year. No one in the government is proposing to take every ones money and divide it up equally. You guys whine and bitch about a few more percentage points added to the taxes of the wealthy and cry that the sky is falling. The taxes for the top 2% are STILL lower now under Obama than they were under Reagan....

Socialism? You must be fucking kidding me. Go learn what socialism is then come back to the discussion.

 

[Staci]

I do have an attitude, always have and always will, Ive never been the quiet go to slaughter kind of fella- I fight.

It has nothing to do with liking him or not, he's purposefully taking us further away form the Constitutional government and more towards a social government, hes centralizing governemnet and manipulating State rights- it has everythign to do with his actions.

My first issue is that he's never been the transparent man he says he is. If he were, then when some gentleman asked in federal court for his original birth certificate he'd have produced it, not a certificate that says some one verified his live birth, but the original certificate. End of story, but he did not do that, he, like all the other presidents since Lincoln, lawyered up.

When he is truly transparent, and produces proof he was born in the US. I'll support him as CiC and go back into my businesses to produce taxes- but I will continue to fight his socialism under principle. But I refuse to recgonize him as the Constitutional president of the United States until he does.

As the old Army slogan goes- I am an army of 1- in this case I am the government, and I will excerise my individual right as the government to represent what I belive are my country's best interests. I realize I am 1 of millions, but I wont lay down and take this unamerican crap from anyone. I will excercise and do anythign legal to stop this bastard.

Is this country worth defending, you bet it is, but I cannot defend it form without, when the attack is comign from within, we are being destroyed by socialists in the government- we are being spoon fed globalism and losing our sovreighnty- the enemy is our government officials, and Obama is chiefest amongst them- but the democrat elite are right there with them- then on down the list to through the centrists republicans- all of them a bunch of idiots.

On the previous administration/s I think Bush did what was right for the military (including going into Iraq), I think what he did to fight terrorism was the right thing to do and it has kept us safer. I think many of the things Bush did domestically he could have done better, On a scale form 1-10 I give bush a 6 as president- on the same scale Obama doesnt even register a positive number. Clinton and his idiot wife was an ass from day 1 and I hold him personally responsible for the deaths of 8 of my best buds. He is a bafoon. Bush Sr. Good man, never go tthe chance to do anything worth while. I loved reagans principles and how he conducted himself but did not always agree with his decisions. Those are the presidents (I do not include Obama as a real president) I served under whil in the military.

So let me ask you a question- why is it I must compromise on what is right? Why should we? Why should we give up sound principles for some new idea? Compromise in politics and principles is nothign more than a prgoressive weakening of the moral standards we know to be true in the first place. No thanks I wont compromise my standard. I will find ways to live under right and not do wrong or I just wont participate- I'll make my stand and live with the consequences thereof.

It's called being a real man, and living on prinicple- If I let the world dictate my principles I'll be nothing but a wishy washy milk toast wuss. I've got a back bone and Im not afraid to use it.

I never said obama was the devil, but he along with his chronies will take another huge step towards conetral government control and thats an evil thing- the more power we give them the more intrusive on our lives they will be. And its that simple.

:clap:clap:clap:clap:clap:clap

 

[Lord Stanley]

It is NOT socialism, it is a social program run within our democracy. Huge difference. Having socialist programs like Medicare, Social security, Medicaid, welfare, etc. does not make the country socialist. Our country is so fucking far from socialism it's pathetic. There is a gap between the poor and the rich that grows larger every year. No one in the government is proposing to take every ones money and divide it up equally. You guys whine and bitch about a few more percentage points added to the taxes of the wealthy and cry that the sky is falling. The taxes for the top 2% are STILL lower now under Obama than they were under Reagan....

Socialism? You must be fucking kidding me. Go learn what socialism is then come back to the discussion.

nothing more to add to that Tim - well said

 

[Staci]

ok tim so what happens when medicare, medicaid, social security and welfare run out? then what type of health care are we going to have?

 

[KpAtch3s]

It is NOT socialism, it is a social program run within our democracy. Huge difference. Having socialist programs like Medicare, Social security, Medicaid, welfare, etc. does not make the country socialist. Our country is so fucking far from socialism it's pathetic. There is a gap between the poor and the rich that grows larger every year. No one in the government is proposing to take every ones money and divide it up equally. You guys whine and bitch about a few more percentage points added to the taxes of the wealthy and cry that the sky is falling. The taxes for the top 2% are STILL lower now under Obama than they were under Reagan....

Socialism? You must be fucking kidding me. Go learn what socialism is then come back to the discussion.

You seem to misunderstand as well that we are not a democracy, but a constitutional republic. Also, I did not say we are socialist, I said HE IS. Let me point out a few things have happened recently. The government now has control of the banks and is gaining more control over the auto industry. That IS socialism! They are taking steps to push towards a socialist government because it means more control and power. If you don't want to live in a socialist country then these are the sort of programs we need to stop.

 

[Tim]

ok tim so what happens when medicare, medicaid, social security and welfare run out? then what type of health care are we going to have?

They won't run out, they will never run out as long as people continue to contribute to these programs. They may run into huge deficits, but they will never run out.
They need to be revamped, the government needs to keep their greedy hands out of those funds and the programs need to be completely overhauled.
We can't just get rid of them. What do you say to the elderly who paid in their whole lives when the program is cut? How do we prevent the elderly from having to eat cat food, or do we just make them go back to work at 85? What's the alternative to social security and medicare? There are already too many elderly that can't afford the medication they need, there are already too many elderly that cannot afford proper meals because their health care costs are too high. How do we take care of them?

You seem to misunderstand as well that we are not a democracy, but a constitutional republic. Also, I did not say we are socialist, I said HE IS. Let me point out a few things have happened recently. The government now has control of the banks and is gaining more control over the auto industry. That IS socialism! They are taking steps to push towards a socialist government because it means more control and power. If you don't want to live in a socialist country then these are the sort of programs we need to stop.

The government does not have control of all the banks, it's only a select few, the ones that were in deep shit. Hell, I don't like the fact that my tax dollars are going to these greedy assholes. They should all be brought up on charges for defraud. And I'm not sure that bailing them out was the right thing to do. I'm not sure which option was the cheaper one in the long run. Because either way we were going to pay for it, trust me on that.
I just have the doom and gloom outlook you all have. I may be wrong and time will tell, but I firmly believe that once things settle out, the government will relinquish all interests in the auto manufacturers and the banks. But for now, I like the fact that they still have their hands in it. I want my tax dollars looked after, it wasn't a fucking gift. I want the money returned as soon as economically possible.

And when you say that these sort of programs need to stop, which ones are you referring to?

 

[KpAtch3s]

The government does not have control of all the banks, it's only a select few, the ones that were in deep shit. Hell, I don't like the fact that my tax dollars are going to these greedy assholes. They should all be brought up on charges for defraud. And I'm not sure that bailing them out was the right thing to do. I'm not sure which option was the cheaper one in the long run. Because either way we were going to pay for it, trust me on that.
I just have the doom and gloom outlook you all have. I may be wrong and time will tell, but I firmly believe that once things settle out, the government will relinquish all interests in the auto manufacturers and the banks. But for now, I like the fact that they still have their hands in it. I want my tax dollars looked after, it wasn't a fucking gift. I want the money returned as soon as economically possible.

And when you say that these sort of programs need to stop, which ones are you referring to?

I meant all the social programs. I hate paying into them. I hate that I am paying into SS. Because of the mess we are in we should set a cut off date and then we can gradually quit paying on all the social programs.

Why, you might ask, and my answer would be because the government has long ago exceeded its boundaries.

 

[Minor Axis]

I do have an attitude, always have and always will, Ive never been the quiet go to slaughter kind of fella- I fight.

It has nothing to do with liking him or not, he's purposefully taking us further away form the Constitutional government and more towards a social government, hes centralizing governemnet and manipulating State rights- it has everythign to do with his actions.

My first issue is that he's never been the transparent man he says he is. If he were, then when some gentleman asked in federal court for his original birth certificate he'd have produced it, not a certificate that says some one verified his live birth, but the original certificate. End of story, but he did not do that, he, like all the other presidents since Lincoln, lawyered up.

When he is truly transparent, and produces proof he was born in the US. I'll support him as CiC and go back into my businesses to produce taxes- but I will continue to fight his socialism under principle. But I refuse to recgonize him as the Constitutional president of the United States until he does.

As the old Army slogan goes- I am an army of 1- in this case I am the government, and I will excerise my individual right as the government to represent what I belive are my country's best interests. I realize I am 1 of millions, but I wont lay down and take this unamerican crap from anyone. I will excercise and do anythign legal to stop this bastard.

Is this country worth defending, you bet it is, but I cannot defend it form without, when the attack is comign from within, we are being destroyed by socialists in the government- we are being spoon fed globalism and losing our sovreighnty- the enemy is our government officials, and Obama is chiefest amongst them- but the democrat elite are right there with them- then on down the list to through the centrists republicans- all of them a bunch of idiots.

On the previous administration/s I think Bush did what was right for the military (including going into Iraq), I think what he did to fight terrorism was the right thing to do and it has kept us safer. I think many of the things Bush did domestically he could have done better, On a scale form 1-10 I give bush a 6 as president- on the same scale Obama doesnt even register a positive number. Clinton and his idiot wife was an ass from day 1 and I hold him personally responsible for the deaths of 8 of my best buds. He is a bafoon. Bush Sr. Good man, never go tthe chance to do anything worth while. I loved reagans principles and how he conducted himself but did not always agree with his decisions. Those are the presidents (I do not include Obama as a real president) I served under whil in the military.

So let me ask you a question- why is it I must compromise on what is right? Why should we? Why should we give up sound principles for some new idea? Compromise in politics and principles is nothign more than a prgoressive weakening of the moral standards we know to be true in the first place. No thanks I wont compromise my standard. I will find ways to live under right and not do wrong or I just wont participate- I'll make my stand and live with the consequences thereof.

It's called being a real man, and living on prinicple- If I let the world dictate my principles I'll be nothing but a wishy washy milk toast wuss. I've got a back bone and Im not afraid to use it.

I never said obama was the devil, but he along with his chronies will take another huge step towards conetral government control and thats an evil thing- the more power we give them the more intrusive on our lives they will be. And its that simple.

So you don't think Obama is a U.S. citizen? I don't think Bush was elected President. Do you also think he is a closet muslim? It sounds like one of those desperate partisan hijinks that a certain political party is known for.

I'm curious how far do you take your principles? You sound just like General James Scott in Seven Days In May (outstanding movie!) who not being happy with how democracy is going, decides to over throw it. Fortunately that is not how democracies function and remain democracies. BTW, I'm not accusing you of planning on over throwing the government at this point in time.

Problem 1- You are using Bush as some kind of standard for your support. So much for high standards, at least high enough that you can support him. I rate him as the worst President of my life time. Yeah, Nixon broke into the Watergate hotel, but at least he was a competent executive. Attacking Iraq for 9/11 was the most negligent, devious, corruption of Presidential power I am aware of and makes Nixon's crime looks petty in comparison. Yeah, Clinton had an affair, that the Republican speaker of the house railed against, while he, the speaker was having an affair with his a member of his staff. Besides that Clinton was a good President in most things I care about other than that stupid NAFTA, bastard! During Clinton's time as President the Republican party spent 8 years and millions of tax payer dollars trying to nail him for a variety of things motivated by political advantage. All they could get was Monica. Oh yeah, and the Clintons had Vince Foster murdered. :smiley24:

Problem 2- Compromise is necessary in any human system. You take a large number of people and most of them will not see eye to eye. The only effective Congress people compromise on a daily basis to get things accomplished. Right now it's a major problem with the Republican party- the inability to compromise and intolerance to other views. Again, it's your way or the highway.

Finally if you are worried about national sovernity, you need to research how conservatives relate to big business. I supposed you hold the large multinational corporations in high esteem, the one who are typically backed with a blind eye, for the sake of "good" business by the Republicans.

 

[Minor Axis]

I meant all the social programs. I hate paying into them. I hate that I am paying into SS. Because of the mess we are in we should set a cut off date and then we can gradually quit paying on all the social programs.

Why, you might ask, and my answer would be because the government has long ago exceeded its boundaries.

You hate social security? I'm not saying there are no problems, but that might be the only pension you ever get. Oh, never mind, just work till you drop dead.

 

[Staci]

Problem 1- You are using Bush as some kind of standard for your support. So much for high standards, at least high enough that you can support him. I rate him as the worst President of my life time. Yeah, Nixon broke into the Watergate hotel, but at least he was a competent executive. Attacking Iraq for 9/11 was the most negligent, devious, corruption of Presidential power I am aware of and makes Nixon's crime looks petty in comparison. Yeah, Clinton had an affair, that the Republican speaker of the house railed against, while he, the speaker was having an affair with his a member of his staff. Besides that Clinton was a good President in most things I care about other than that stupid NAFTA, bastard! During Clinton's time as President the Republican party spent 8 years and millions of tax payer dollars trying to nail him for a variety of things motivated by political advantage. All they could get was Monica. Oh yeah, and the Clintons had Vince Foster murdered. :smiley24:
.

first of all i am so tired of everyone blaming bush for the war. if everyone would actually remember how they felt on 9-11 and the emotion that they had the majority of people were in favor of the attacks, and not just for WMD. and as it stands regardless of how you feel about it today, there are men and women who have volunteered to fight for your right to have this debate. the men and women fighting need to know that they have our support, even if you dont support the war effort. and as for saying that bush was the most neglegent, devious, and corrupt president that we have ever had is a stretch for me. wait about 3 more years then relook at that statement.

you refer to clinton's time as president (and i voted for clinton) and how the republicans spent all this money trying to derail him. what do you think congress is doing today with the republicans? we all know that congress is mostly democrats, so they aren't railroading anyone?

oh but wait, the republicans are asking nancy pelosi to step down while an investigation happens. i guess this is a conspiry as well. so it seems that money is being spent on both sides to sling the mud around.

 

[Alien Allen]

i have to admit i cannot for the life of me see how anyone can link Obama's policies with socialism

Would like us to explain the obvious

 

[Minor Axis]

You seem to misunderstand as well that we are not a democracy, but a constitutional republic. Also, I did not say we are socialist, I said HE IS. Let me point out a few things have happened recently. The government now has control of the banks and is gaining more control over the auto industry. That IS socialism! They are taking steps to push towards a socialist government because it means more control and power. If you don't want to live in a socialist country then these are the sort of programs we need to stop.

It was greedy bastard investment banks, mortgage companies, politicians and inept car companies who fucked it up partially due to an unrelenting push by Republicans/conservatives to deregulate EVERYTHING in the name of profits. Now the government is doing what must be done to avoid a full blown circa 1929 depression. I supposed you be happier if we just the chips fall where they may? :smiley24:

If you are going to erupt and want some credibility, you can also acknowledge the events leading to this mess and assign some responsibility to someone in addition to Obama.

 

[Minor Axis]

first of all i am so tired of everyone blaming bush for the war. if everyone would actually remember how they felt on 9-11 and the emotion that they had the majority of people were in favor of the attacks, and not just for WMD. and as it stands regardless of how you feel about it today, there are men and women who have volunteered to fight for your right to have this debate. the men and women fighting need to know that they have our support, even if you dont support the war effort. and as for saying that bush was the most neglegent, devious, and corrupt president that we have ever had is a stretch for me. wait about 3 more years then relook at that statement.

you refer to clinton's time as president (and i voted for clinton) and how the republicans spent all this money trying to derail him. what do you think congress is doing today with the republicans? we all know that congress is mostly democrats, so they aren't railroading anyone?

oh but wait, the republicans are asking nancy pelosi to step down while an investigation happens. i guess this is a conspiry as well. so it seems that money is being spent on both sides to sling the mud around.

You live in a different reality than I.

Let me see if I got it- So after 9/11 Americans were so mad and so scared, we were so blinded by rage and a lying-sack-of-shit Administration, we were happy to attack a country who had nothing to do with 9/11? Here's a novel idea, why not hold the country responsible where all of the terrorists came from as in Saudi? But I don't think Daddy Bush and the Carlyle Group would have been pleased with that move so back to Iraq. Oh yeah, WMDs... where the heck did they go? Yeah, AlQueda they are in tight with Saddam... nope. Oh, oh, yes, Saddam is a bad man, lets bankrupt the country replacing him. It's a plan!

You got it backwards, regarding Pelosi. It's the Republican's trying to railorad Pelosi out of her position. See the pattern here? It's-when-a-Democrat-is-in-office-the-Republican's-strike. BTW, tell me, what Republican is currently being railroaded? :humm:

 

[Alien Allen]

How many examples can you liberals give when a govt takes over something on an alleged temporary basis and then gives it back?

The banks takings were some of the biggest ones was it not?

Come on Minor you know darn well the democrats use every tactic the republicans use.

I really do not get how anybody can defend Pelosi. She is a west coast uber liberal. She has no pulse on middle america and has shown little to instill confidence. Like all politicians when they get caught in a lie she tried to cover it up. She opened her mouth and inserted foot. The republicans had nothing to do with that. Talk about a deer in headlights though. If that is the best you got I would be concerned.

 

[Minor Axis]

How many examples can you liberals give when a govt takes over something on an alleged temporary basis and then gives it back?

Now seems to be a good time after listening to Republicans vilify the word to refresh our memory as to what liberalism means:

Liberalism emphasizes individual rights and equality of opportunity. Within liberalism, there are various streams of thought which compete over the use of the term "liberal" and may propose very different policies, but they are generally united by their support for constitutional liberalism, which encompasses support for: freedom of thought and speech, limitations on the power of governments, the rule of law, an individual's right to private property,[2] and a transparent system of government.[3][4][5] All liberals, as well as some adherents of other political ideologies, support some variant of the form of government known as liberal democracy, with open and fair elections, where all citizens have equal rights by law.[6]

It really does sound terrible.

 

[Alien Allen]

Sorry Minor but that is not what the democrats are practicing anymore.

Maybe Strauss can step in and explain. I saw him make a comment not long ago.

 

[SgtSpike]

It was greedy bastard investment banks, mortgage companies, politicians and inept car companies who fucked it up partially due to an unrelenting push by Republicans/conservatives to deregulate EVERYTHING in the name of profits. Now the government is doing what must be done to avoid a full blown circa 1929 depression. I supposed you be happier if we just the chips fall where they may? :smiley24:

If you are going to erupt and want some credibility, you can also acknowledge the events leading to this mess and assign some responsibility to someone in addition to Obama.

Don't even try to blame it on the banks. It was Clinton's policies that forced banks to give lending to people who really couldn't afford it.

And the car companies were dying because of the unions.

Liberalism emphasizes individual rights and equality of opportunity. Within liberalism, there are various streams of thought which compete over the use of the term "liberal" and may propose very different policies, but they are generally united by their support for constitutional liberalism, which encompasses support for: freedom of thought and speech, limitations on the power of governments, the rule of law, an individual's right to private property,[2] and a transparent system of government.[3][4][5] All liberals, as well as some adherents of other political ideologies, support some variant of the form of government known as liberal democracy, with open and fair elections, where all citizens have equal rights by law.[6]

Actually, you could just as easily put Republicans in that same description.

And I've never seen a liberal who is for "limitations on the power of governments". All I here these days from liberals is more governmental power, more money for the government, and more regulation from the government.

 

[Alien Allen]

Sarge both parties were involved in the bank regulations. It is too simplistic to blame the bank problems on Clinton and the dems or the reps though. The lack of regulations which both parties are to blame for and the push to give people loans they could not afford was a large factor. But the bottom line is the banks played a shell game. That is what sickens me and why I wanted them to go under. No accountability and that should scare the shit out of everybody. Even the great one Obama has given them basically a free pass. We sold our soul to the bankers 100 years ago. Now was the time to take control and instead we have what Bush did and Obama continues.

 

[Valde Bovis]

The original birth certificate with raised seal signatures HAS been produced. You need to quit listening to the rumor mill and actually go out and look for the facts yourself. I am amazed at how many people still believe this garbage when it only takes a 2 minute search to find the truth.

FactCheck.org: Born in the U.S.A.

I refer you to exhibit four in your own rouges gallary- that is not a birth certificate- it is not the original issued at his birth, that is a verififcation that his original exists on record-

As I said, when a federal judge verifies by sight that he has an actual and 'original' hawaiian birth certificate proving he was born on US soil and that it is not a hawwaiian-foriegn certificate I will return to my business and I will serve under him as CiC- until then no dice.

 

[Valde Bovis]

i have to admit i cannot for the life of me see how anyone can link Obama's policies with socialism

He's spending trillions on bogus and useless programs that support programs like ACORN. That doe snot put american back to work, thats special interest pure and simple.

He is redistibuting other peoples money and not makiing us all pay our fair share on ONLY required services.

He's pushing priivate businesses into bankruptcy on purpose, after making them OWE him, so he can have control of a huge chucnk of the auto industry-

He's pushing union wages on every body- hes undercutting private busnesses that wotn go along with the program- just wait till folks sham on buying green cars- the gas prices will go up and he'll just shrug his shoulders and say 'well buy green'...