The God thread...

[Diggin Deep]

How can a just god condemn a soul for all of eternity for such a short lifetime on this planet? This may not seem like such a hard question to answer until you start to wrap your mind around what an eternity actually means. To say that I will burn in a lake of fire and suffer eternally for a what I did in my life which is not even a blink of an eye when you are talking about eternity, tells me that there is no god. There is no one that is that cruel, there can't be.

Tim - what you just posted was awesome, because it went directly with what I was getting ready to post...questions opposing hell and different interpretations. Some of the scriptures referenced are identical although our interpretation may be different...

THE OPPOSITION TO HELL

I have discovered that there are many beliefs that are contrary to what the Bible teaches about hell.

1. Eternal punishment for temporal sins is unjust. This of course presupposes that our justice transcends the justice of God and that we understand justice more than God. That is the only way that we could claim in any way that God is unjust. In any case, we do know that Jesus died for us and saved us from an eternal punishment. Therefore, it would seem reasonable that there is an eternal punishment for temporal sins. Furthermore, we have shown the necessity of an eternal hell in prior discussions.

Now only eternal punishment is fitting for crimes against an infinite God. This type of approach even exists in our judicial system today. For example, a crime against the President of the United States would be considered far more serious then crimes against a local person. So it is reasonable to believe that sin against an infinite God, the creator of all that is, would be likewise eternal.

2. Going to hell merely because one has not heard the Gospel is unjust. This presupposes that some who go to hell have not heard the Gospel. However, we have no reason to believe that a just God would send someone to hell simply because they have never heard the Gospel. Paul, in his letter to the Romans, said that God has revealed himself to humans through the things that are seen (Romans 1:18-21). We call this special revelation. Therefore, no one is without excuse and all have knowledge of God that could ultimately lead us to Christ. Furthermore, we must assume that a just God gives everyone a chance to receive Christ.

3. All are promised eternal life. Those who persist in sin will suffer a loss of rewards during the millennial period (1 Corinthians 3:11-15 is used to support this view). The first thing that you will notice after examining the scripture is that it is taken out of context to support this view. Paul was not referring to judgment of individuals. He was referring to the judgment of our works and how we would be rewarded for them. He also emphasized that the work we do in this life be founded on Jesus Christ else it would be burned away when our works are tested. So this view is not consistent with scripture.

4. Jesus died for all sins therefore all humans will be saved. I discussed the consequences of this view earlier. This view implies that God forces his salvation even on those who would not receive it. For example, Hitler was not seeking after God, but by this view he would go to heaven anyway because Jesus' redemptive act paid for his sins. Though Jesus did die for even the sins of Hitler, it was up to Hitler to receive forgiveness and reconciliation by his own free will, which he did not. So this view too is not consistent with scripture.

5. Christ abolished all death so no one will experience it (1 Corinthians 15:26). This scripture is also taken out of context to support this view. First of all, Paul was talking about the end of the age when Jesus comes back again. He wasn't talking about the redemptive act on Calvary. Jesus has indeed conquered death through the resurrection. However, that doesn't mean that death does not exist. It is not until the end when hades (the grave) will be thrown into the lake of fire and be forever removed from God's people.

Revelation 20:14 (NKJV) Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

6. Hell is about punishment for sins and therefore an eternal hell is unjust. Sinners could be rehabilitated over a period of time instead of suffering for eternity for temporal sins. Suffice it for me to say that we cannot declare in any way the justice of God since his justice and ways transcends ours. Also, hell is not mere punishment. Hell is the consequence of unbelief in Christ. Hell is the choice that unbelievers have made in regards to eternal life.

I said earlier that hell is not a rehabilitation center where you can pay for your crimes and then be free to go to heaven. I said that this implies that there is another way to be saved apart from Jesus Christ and therefore makes the redemptive act of Jesus Christ a moot point. Also note that the Bible refers to the gnashing of teeth of those who are in hell (See Matthew 8:12; 13:42, 50; 22:13; 24:51; 25:30; Luke 13:28). The word gnashing (gnash) means to grate or grind ones teeth together as an expression of hatred and scorn. So there is no indication of anything leading people to repentance or of anyone heading in that direction.

7. The fires of hell annihilate the unregenerate soul. Hell is not a place where people are consumed until they do not exist. Consciousness remains in hell as we see from the parable of Jesus in Luke 16. Annihilationism is contrary to what the scriptures reveal to us about hell. Also, annihilation results in the unbeliever escaping the penalty of their sins since annihilation is not preferred over anything.

 

[Diggin Deep]

How can a just god condemn a soul for all of eternity for such a short lifetime on this planet? This may not seem like such a hard question to answer until you start to wrap your mind around what an eternity actually means. To say that I will burn in a lake of fire and suffer eternally for a what I did in my life which is not even a blink of an eye when you are talking about eternity, tells me that there is no god. There is no one that is that cruel, there can't be.

Almost finished with Hell


The Consequences of Opposition

I have presented the consequences of each opposition to the biblical concept of hell earlier. However, overall they all negate the redemptive work of Jesus Christ. By saying that hell doesn't exist or that it is temporal implies that the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ was not necessary or at best not sufficient. Therefore, anything besides the biblical aspect of hell is directly opposed to the fundamental premise of the Christian faith, namely the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Another aspect of the consequences of these oppositions to biblical hell is that they all contradict or challenge the justice of God. No human can judge anything about God. This isn’t to say that we can’t have doubts and questions. The sovereignty of God is challenged, so to speak, when we say that an eternal hell is unjust or that God is unjust for sending people to hell (when in fact hell is the choice of the individual).

The various unbiblical views of hell are in direct opposition to the foundation of the Christian faith. Without hell then justice could not be realized. Without hell there would be no need for Jesus Christ because there would be other means of salvation or, in the case of annihilation, it would all be meaningless. Therefore, the consequence of the beliefs of a nonexistence or unbiblical hell is that the core of the Christian faith is diluted and rendered meaningless.

 

[Diggin Deep]

How can a just god condemn a soul for all of eternity for such a short lifetime on this planet? This may not seem like such a hard question to answer until you start to wrap your mind around what an eternity actually means. To say that I will burn in a lake of fire and suffer eternally for a what I did in my life which is not even a blink of an eye when you are talking about eternity, tells me that there is no god. There is no one that is that cruel, there can't be.

One Man’s Opinion

The Christian perspective is quite simple. Christians do not have to be concerned about hell in regards to their eternity. Their place is secured with the Father forever. However, I feel that it is very important for Christians to understand various doctrines because there are many who oppose it or have extra-biblical points of view about it. Denying the existence of hell does not mean that it doesn't exist in the same way that denying that it is raining outside won't make the reality of the rain vanish.

I once believed that all would go to “heaven”. I believed that hell did not exist or at least that no human would go to such a place. I thought the references made in the Bible were symbolic. The unbeliever in me had to search for myself and I have spent a lot of time doing so. In my own examination of the scriptures I’ve found that Jesus, the apostles and others were referring to a real place when they wrote of hell. I believe that those who reside in hell do it by their own choice. The “unsaved” choose by his or her own free will to reject God. I also feel that hell has no authority over a believer.

The important thing for Christians and non-Christians to remember is that hell should not be the reason we come to know God. God does not want us to come to Him out of fear of going to hell, but because we desire to have a relationship with Him and want to spend an eternity with Him. Christians have heaven as their eternal home and it should be a priority to us to spread the Gospel of Christ not so much as to help people avoid hell but to help them have eternal life for the sake of the will of God. I have never spoke or preached on hell as a way to spread the Gospel of Christ. I do not believe in the fire and brimstone type preaching. I've seen way to many people walk away and reject God and Christianity because of this style of preaching than. The Bible says to preach the gospel (make disciples of all people) not to preach the avoidance of hell.

 

[Tim]

Ok, now that you have posted all that, what are your beliefs on spending an eternity in hell?

Before you answer, I want you to take 15 minutes and try to wrap your brain around what eternity really means.
Consider this... God is eternal, correct? He does not have a beginning nor does he have an end, right?
So with that, what will exist longer, god or our souls? To help you visualize this, take two pieces of chalk and tape them together. Draw a single line for a few feet then without stopping rotate it so it's drawing two lines at the same time. Don't stop, keep going and tell me which line is longer. You might want to say the first one is, but it isn't. Not until you stop drawing the lines will there be a difference.
It doesn't matter if god was always here and will last for eternity or if we were just born and will last for eternity, we will both exist the same amount of time... Eternity doesn't stop, there is no end.
Even Hitler does not qualify for eternal punishment... 40 years of pure evil should not carry a punishment of 100 trillion centuries, or a billion times that, or trillions of times that... hell, we still aren't getting close to eternity. And if these numbers don't truly boggle your mind, then you aren't even close to understanding eternity.

I wouldn't even be close to comparing the two with the following example.

Your 2 year old child thinks of taking a cookie that he is not suppose to have. For that thought, you beat him every hour of every day in ways that would horrify Stephen King. There is not a second of relief from his pain and misery. This is carried on until the day he dies at 110.

If the above example isn't "fair" and would horrify you in reality, then the thought of eternal damnation should boggle your mind. The moment you can actually wrap your head around this concept, you should do one of two things.
1. Know that there is no place of eternal damnation, or 2. Know that god is the most heinous and sadistic creature to ever exist

 

[Diggin Deep]

Very good illustration by the way :thumbup I understand and agree with your concept of eternity. As a human, I can't begin to imagine it. It truly makes me :willy_nilly: trying to comprehend it. Having said that, I can have doubts, but one thing I choose not to question is the justice of God, nor can I believe that I understand justice better than God. Like I said earlier, "only eternal punishment is fitting for crimes against an infinite God. This type of approach even exists in our judicial system today. For example, a crime against the President of the United States would be considered far more serious then crimes against a local person. So it is reasonable to believe that sin against an infinite God, the creator of all that is, would be likewise eternal."

Trying to compare 70-100 years of life to eternity mathematically is impossible. However, as a human, 70-100 years is a very long time. If I know that the wages of sin is death, an eternity without God - and I have heard the Gospel or experienced God through the things that are seen, than it is my fault for not accepting Him as my Savior, not His. This is no different than someone who has commited murder. The person knows that the penalty for their crime before they commit it. It will most likely result in a life sentence in prison or a death sentence. The person has a choice to refrain from doing the crime. If they still commit the crime, should they not be held accountable? Should they not have to serve a lifetime in prison or even the death penalty? Should God not hold his people accountable to the same standard that our own laws hold us to?

I wouldn't even be close to comparing the two with the following example.

Your 2 year old child thinks of taking a cookie that he is not suppose to have. For that thought, you beat him every hour of every day in ways that would horrify Stephen King. There is not a second of relief from his pain and misery. This is carried on until the day he dies at 110.

If the above example isn't "fair" and would horrify you in reality, then the thought of eternal damnation should boggle your mind. The moment you can actually wrap your head around this concept, you should do one of two things.
1. Know that there is no place of eternal damnation, or 2. Know that god is the most heinous and sadistic creature to ever exist

I suppose this is where one of most evident differences are. Your interpretation of hell is a place of fire - real fire, and constant physical pain and pysical suffering.

I believe that in heaven as in hell, we are no longer in our human bodies, but as souls / spirts. I feel that the fire in hell is real, but not in the physical sense, how can a soul / spirt be physically tortured. Those that enter heaven will feel love and peace and in a sense, rejoice at the thrown of God, because they made the choice to serve God on earth. Those that enter hell will enter darkness, emptiness, lonliness, an emotional type pain and suffering due to the absence of God, because they made the choice not to serve God on earth.

 

[Tim]

Like I said earlier, "only eternal punishment is fitting for crimes against an infinite God....

An eternity of suffering is fitting? That's a very simplistic view, very simplistic.

If I know that the wages of sin is death, an eternity without God - and I have heard the Gospel or experienced God through the things that are seen, than it is my fault for not accepting Him as my Savior, not His.

So the billions of people who are born into a family of a different religion deserve eternal suffering?
Why would a person believe in Jesus as their personal savior and ask him into his heart if he was raised to believe in a completely different religion? And does it bother you to know that this conversation we are having would be completely different if we were born in another country? We would be discussing Mohammad and talking about a completely different way to get into heaven. Would we then deserve to go to hell for eternity?

I suppose this is where one of most evident differences are. Your interpretation of hell is a place of fire - real fire, and constant physical pain and pysical suffering.

Matthew 10:28 (New King James Version)

28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 5:29 (King James Version)


29And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.




Mark 9:43 (King James Version)


43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.




Isaiah 66:24 (King James Version)


24And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

 

[Diggin Deep]

Tim, I completely understand where you are coming from. I have had very similar views to yours, but through my own investigation and real life experiences, my views have changed.

An eternity of suffering is fitting? That's a very simplistic view, very simplistic.

If my view is so simplistic, then please tell me what what you think is fair justice. Do you not feel that if someone raped and murdered your wife or child, they deserve to be punished? Do you think that a life sentence or even the death penalty is too harsh of a punishment? A life away from their own parents, wife or husband, children is too harsh? If not, then why is believing that God's justice requires there to be a hell - an eternity without Him - so simplistic? Why is believing that if I have rejected God, Christ, and His Gosepl on earth that I should not be able to spend an eternity with Him in heaven, but an eternity in hell, a simplistic view? God's justice transcends our own. Hell is more than punishment, it is a consequence of not believing in God when we had the chance. Regardless of one person's interpretation of hell from another - hell is a choice that one makes for themself. It doesn't matter if you believe or don't believe, what you think hell is or isn't, God tells us that there will be consequences for not believing. Which is no different than knowing the consequences of breaking the law and still commiting the crime. You knew what the punishment would be and yet you did it anyways. Just because you may not agree with the a life without parole or the death sentence, doesn't mean it isn't real and isn't enforced. You reap what you sow.

If I would not serve Him on earth, why would I want to serve Him in heaven? If I did not believe on earth that God was real and that there was a heaven or hell, and then when I die - I find that there really is a God - why should I be able to enter Heaven? If everything that I heard while in the flesh on earth ended up being true, what right would I have then to expect God to give me a another chance, after all of the chances I had on earth? Especially when there are those that are on earth who have believed and have followed - what would be the point of them to have believed and followed God? What would be the point and purpose of Jesus Christ, Salvation, a relationship with God?

So the billions of people who are born into a family of a different religion deserve eternal suffering? Why would a person believe in Jesus as their personal savior and ask him into his heart if he was raised to believe in a completely different religion? And does it bother you to know that this conversation we are having would be completely different if we were born in another country? We would be discussing Mohammad and talking about a completely different way to get into heaven. Would we then deserve to go to hell for eternity?

Do you not believe that a just God, would present Himself to every one of His children? As I wrote earlier - Going to hell simply because someone has not heard the Gospel is unjust. "Special Revelation" is exactly what Paul wrote about in his letter to the Romans.

(Romans 1:18-20 NIV) 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Regardless of where they are born and what religion they were raised to follow, would a just God not find a way to show Himself to them? I have heard the personal testimonies of people from other countries and religions of how they came to know God - mainly while I was studying at a bible college and traveling on mission trips. Some testified they came to know God simply from watching a tree grow fruit, simply by seeing the rising and setting of the sun, by simply looking at a waterfall, a bird flying, the birth of a baby and the complexities of the human body. And after seeing these things and acknowleging that a higher power had to have created them, they searched. And through that search, they found God. Don't forget about the people who have become disciples of Christ and have taken up His cross to spread the Gospel all across our world regardless of the religious persecution they face. At some point in everyone's life, they will hear of, see or feel the power of God. At that point, regardless of how the person learned of Christ - they will have the free will to decide for themselves.

To suggest that just because I was born in a third world country, raised as a Muslim, Buddhist, etc. that I could not come to know the Bible God, is in my opinion - simplistic. By suggesting that - one puts limitations on the power of God, the power of the Holy Spirit, and the power of His Gospel. Jesus died on the crosss so that all of God's people could know salvation, receive redemption for their sins, and have a person relationship with Him. Not some, Not a few, Not just those who were raised in a culture of Christianity, but ALL of God's people.

 

[Tim]

So will any of the millions who worshiped the Egyptian god Ra go to heaven?
What about the millions of people that worshiped Zeus?

20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

What about the billions of people throughout the centuries that HAVE attributed this divine nature to a deity, like Zeus, Ra, or any of the other gods. Will these people be in heaven?

 

[BornReady]

Those that enter hell will enter darkness, emptiness, lonliness, an emotional type pain and suffering due to the absence of God

I am relieved to see your concept of hell is separation from God. Anyone who believes hell is a place of torture and condones its existence is a monster. They may wrap themselves up in a pretty package of feigned love but inside they are ugly.

I'm a realist. All the evidence indicates we cease to exist in any meaningful way at death. So that is what I believe. However, my sister-in-law believes in an afterlife. She thinks non-Christians will go to hell. But her hell is simply separation from God. If at some point they decide they want to be with God then God will permit them into heaven. I think this concept comes from C.S. Lewis. While it is no more likely than any other afterlife people have come up with, I think it showed Lewis' love of humanity.

 

[GoldDust Woman]

Tim - the soul and the body of which you're making reference to, are not literal, they are figurative. The "body" is in reference to the body of Christ (in which we take on, as believers.) That being said, the "body" means the believers. So, the souls enter eternity as a body of believers. All believers... Same as the unbelievers - they go as a "body" of unbelievers.

Scripture states that the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then the unbelievers will rise. Where will they rise from? Either Hades, or Abrahams' bosom. There is one judgement day where ALL knees shall bow... this is where the wheat (the believers in Christ) shall be separated from the chaff (the unbelievers).

I don't believe that anyone enters Heaven until the final judgement because of the one judgement day. There is one death, one burial, one resurrection. So, one resurrection means that's when we all face God on judgement day.

 

[Diggin Deep]

So will any of the millions who worshiped the Egyptian god Ra go to heaven?
What about the millions of people that worshiped Zeus?

What about the billions of people throughout the centuries that HAVE attributed this divine nature to a deity, like Zeus, Ra, or any of the other gods. Will these people be in heaven?

In my opinion, based on scripture, No. Those who followed Ra, Zeus or any other gods would not be able to enter Heaven, unless at some point in their life, they acknowledged the "bible god" as their God. I form this opinion by believing that God is just and would have made Himself known in one way or another.

For me to believe in God, I must accept that He is the only God. The God who created everything - not a bunch of gods who reign over the sun, sea, sky, etc. God reveals this through various scriptures regarding false idols: Exodus (Chapters 20, 32, 34) and Leviticus (Chapters 17, 19, 26). Let's not forget His second commandment:

Exodus 20:3-4 (NIV) 3 “You shall have no other gods before me. 4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Deuteronomy 5:7-10 (The Message) 7 No other gods, only me. 8-10 No carved gods of any size, shape, or form of anything whatever, whether of things that fly or walk or swim. Don't bow down to them and don't serve them because I am God, your God, and I'm a most jealous God. I hold parents responsible for any sins they pass on to their children to the third, and yes, even to the fourth generation. But I'm lovingly loyal to the thousands who love me and keep my commandments.

Since the fall of man, the basis of salvation has always been the death of Christ. No one, either prior to the cross or since the cross, would ever be saved without that one pivotal event in the history of the world. Christ's death paid the penalty for past sins of Old Testament saints and future sins of New Testament saints. But in order for the individual's sin to be covered, they would have had to acknowledge the "bible god" as their God.

The requirement for salvation has always been faith. The object of one's faith for salvation has always been God. The Old Testament sacrificial system did not take away sin, as Hebrews 10:1-10 clearly teaches. It did, however, point to the day when the Son of God would shed His blood for the sinful human race.

What has changed through the ages is the content of a believer's faith. God's requirement of what must be believed is based on the amount of revelation He has given mankind up to that time. This is called progressive revelation.

Abraham believed God according to the promises and new revelation God gave him in Genesis 12 and 15. Prior to Moses, no Scripture was written, but mankind was responsible for what God had revealed. Throughout the Old Testament, believers came to salvation because they believed that God would someday take care of their sin problem.

 

[Tim]

In my opinion, based on scripture, No. Those who followed Ra, Zeus or any other gods would not be able to enter Heaven, unless at some point in their life, they acknowledged the "bible god" as their God. I form this opinion by believing that God is just and would have made Himself known in one way or another.

For me to believe in God, I must accept that He is the only God. The God who created everything - not a bunch of gods who reign over the sun, sea, sky, etc. God reveals this through various scriptures regarding false idols: Exodus (Chapters 20, 32, 34) and Leviticus (Chapters 17, 19, 26). Let's not forget His second commandment:

Here's the problem. According to your opinion, ie. the Christian faith, there are billions of souls that are damned to hell because they had the misfortune to be born in the wrong place and the wrong time.

I have heard this explained before that God would make himself "known" to those who were not exposed to Christianity... but here is the problem with that... Why would they attribute any sign of god to be anything other than a sign from their own god? Just pick any religion over the centuries and look at this through their eyes... Let's say you are Egyptian and worship Ra. If god gave you a sign that showed he existed, you would attribute that to Ra. Even if he came down in front of you and smacked you in the head, you would think that was Ra himself. They would ONLY believe in the god of Abraham if they were shown in VERY specific terms and even then they may still believe it is Ra testing them... Now apply this scenario to any of the thousands of religions of the world.
Can you not see how your interpretation is absurd?

Do you think that any god would punish his children for all of eternity because he wants to hide? Step outside your box and look at it objectively like I did once upon a time. It won't make sense to you as it didn't to me.
I will never be convinced that the majority of gods children deserve to be punished for all of eternity because he played the absent landlord.

 

[Diggin Deep]

Here's the problem. According to your opinion, ie. the Christian faith, there are billions of souls that are damned to hell because they had the misfortune to be born in the wrong place and the wrong time.

I have heard this explained before that God would make himself "known" to those who were not exposed to Christianity... but here is the problem with that... Why would they attribute any sign of god to be anything other than a sign from their own god? Just pick any religion over the centuries and look at this through their eyes... Let's say you are Egyptian and worship Ra. If god gave you a sign that showed he existed, you would attribute that to Ra. Even if he came down in front of you and smacked you in the head, you would think that was Ra himself. They would ONLY believe in the god of Abraham if they were shown in VERY specific terms and even then they may still believe it is Ra testing them... Now apply this scenario to any of the thousands of religions of the world.
Can you not see how your interpretation is absurd?

Do you think that any god would punish his children for all of eternity because he wants to hide? Step outside your box and look at it objectively like I did once upon a time. It won't make sense to you as it didn't to me.
I will never be convinced that the majority of gods children deserve to be punished for all of eternity because he played the absent landlord.

I think you are stretching and reaching a little here and making a lof of assumptions.

One thing that you obviously have a problem with is accepting (hypothetically) that if there is one god, that he is just. Neither you or I can claim to know how people who believed in other gods attributed signs from "God" and if they changed their personal beliefs because of it. I have no idea, but who is to say that none of them did? There is absolutely no way to prove or disprove that some of them did or didn't. You said yourself that it was possible:

They would ONLY believe in the god of Abraham if they were shown in VERY specific terms...

Are you claiming that they didn't know of God before they created their own idols of worship?

Wrong place in the wrong time??? According to Egyptian chronology, Egyptian civilization came together around 3150 BC. Ra became a major deity around the 5th dynasty (2494 - 2345 BC). We read of Egypt and it's people in Genesis (the first book of the Torah). It tells us how the children of Israel later moved to Egypt, after Abraham settled in the land of Canaan. The remaining four books of the Torah tell the story of Moses, who lived hundreds of years after the patriarchs. His story coincides with the story of the liberation of the Children of Israel from slavery in Ancient Egypt. So by reading this as merely a history book, we can come to conclusion that God had already made Himself evident in Egypt far before the dynasties, and far before Ra.

Remembering the idea of progressive revelation. If I knew for a fact that God had not reached out to every one of His children, made Himself known in one way or another, made every attempt to speak to or show Himself to every person that has walked this earth - then NO, I would not believe that "majority" of God's children should be punished for being born in the wrong place in the wrong time. However, I do believe that He is just and I do believe that if He is who He says He is, then He would have given them the opportunity to know Him then.

As far as God hiding or being a absent landlord...seriously??? Do we need to go there too?

 

[Diggin Deep]

In the words of Billy Graham, “At last the Holy Spirit freed me to say it. ‘Father, I am going to accept this as Thy Word – by faith! I’m going to allow faith to go beyond my intellectual questions and doubts, and I will believe this to be Your inspired Word.’ …Not all my questions were answered, but…I knew a major spiritual battle in my soul had been fought and won.”

In the end, the Christian is not convinced of his or her theism based on sophisticated arguments or capable apologetic defenses. The Christian is convinced of his or her position based on faith.

Faith is not simply the recourse of an weak-minded religious nut. It is the sum and substance of any religious belief system. Faith is even the basis for the atheist’s non-belief in God. The Bible describes faith as “the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen” (Heb. 11:1). Faith is not a pathetic baseless optimism for something that science disproves. Faith is actuality. Faith is substance. Faith is conviction.

The Christian does not need to understand religious epistemology in order to have trustworthy assurance of these things. They are objectively true without their full understanding. They are subjectively true based on the internal confirmation of the Holy Spirit. Thus, when the Christian believes in the existence of God and the truth of Scripture, they believe in something just as reliable and even more certain as those things verified by the scientific method.

When an atheist rejects belief in God, they reject any source of confidence beyond their own level of reasoning or understanding. The thinking atheist will forever be questioning the origin of the universe, will be perplexed regarding morality, and will be unsure of their own destiny and purpose in life.

I touched on this in a previous post. Romans 1 explains that so-called atheists, among others, actually “by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them” (Rom. 1:18-19). How has God shown Himself to them? “His invisible attributes, namely his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew god, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

In my opinion, the reason atheists don’t believe in God is because they don’t want to. Tim - even though you may not always think about it, I imagine you may agree with me.

The atheist uses faith, too. They put their faith in science or self. They presuppose that science or self are trustworthy places for their confidence, and finds corroboration for this presupposition in the evidences that he can comprehend. They believe in their own testimony. The Bible, however, confronts this belief system; “If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater” (1 John 5:9). God’s testimony is found in Jesus--an indisputable historical figure. As C. S. Lewis summarized, Jesus was one of three things. Either he was a 1) subversive liar, 2) or a raving lunatic, or 3) He was actually who He claimed to be--the Son of God. Which one was he? The passage cited above goes on to say, “Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son” (1 John 5:10).

The atheist finds themself in the difficult position of denying all of those things that speak to God’s existence and the validity of the Christian faith. They reject God. They reject the creation of the world by God. They reject the deity of Christ. They reject God’s Word. They suppress the inner testimony that they have concerning the reality of God. All that they are left with is a feeble self-confidence. This is the atheist’s confidence.

The Christian’s source of confidence--their faith--is an unshakable faith in God, revealed in His Word, manifested in Jesus Christ, and confirmed by His Spirit. Atheism declares that there is no god. Christianity teaches that there is a God. Both cannot be true. So which one is correct, the atheist or the Christian? It's not a right or wrong answer. How you respond depends upon faith. It depends on the source of your faith. Will you have faith in self? Or in God?

If being a Christian, believing God is real, and that He is just, places me in a "box" and makes you feel that I am unable to see things objectively, I'm sorry. Tim - I feel I've done a very good job of being objective and open minded while holding strong to my personal beliefs. I am open to the possibility that I could be wrong about everything. It's possible! However, I do not regret my personal choice to serve the God I serve. Even if when I die - there is no heaven, no hell, no god - I would not for one second have regretted doing my best to serve Him while on earth. What I would regret is if I would have let all of my doubts and personal beliefs keep me from serving Him, only to find that He was real all along and not to have tried to give to others what He has given to me.

Again Tim - in regards our personal beliefs, faith leads me to believe that there is a God. Yours doesn't. Yes it's possible that I'm wrong, but I'm ok with that. I'm not writing all of this to prove that my way is better than yours or argue with you over who is right or wrong. I decided to discuss this with you, because I do believe, and to show why I believe. I openly discuss my personal belief, because I actually care. If I didn't, I wouldn't waste either of our time by talking about it.

 

[Diggin Deep]

Tim - Is there anything else that you would like to discuss or anyone else for that matter?

 

[Niamh]

Here's the problem. According to your opinion, ie. the Christian faith, there are billions of souls that are damned to hell because they had the misfortune to be born in the wrong place and the wrong time.

I have heard this explained before that God would make himself "known" to those who were not exposed to Christianity... but here is the problem with that... Why would they attribute any sign of god to be anything other than a sign from their own god? Just pick any religion over the centuries and look at this through their eyes... Let's say you are Egyptian and worship Ra. If god gave you a sign that showed he existed, you would attribute that to Ra. Even if he came down in front of you and smacked you in the head, you would think that was Ra himself. They would ONLY believe in the god of Abraham if they were shown in VERY specific terms and even then they may still believe it is Ra testing them... Now apply this scenario to any of the thousands of religions of the world.
Can you not see how your interpretation is absurd?

Do you think that any god would punish his children for all of eternity because he wants to hide? Step outside your box and look at it objectively like I did once upon a time. It won't make sense to you as it didn't to me.
I will never be convinced that the majority of gods children deserve to be punished for all of eternity because he played the absent landlord.

absolutely 100% agree with you here.

 

[Diggin Deep]

absolutely 100% agree with you here.

I once felt this exact same way. I believe that in order for someone to find an answer to that very question, they must search objectively. To do that they must at least, hypothetically accept that if there is a god, that God would be just and everything they say they are. If one is able to accept that, then they must also accept that God would make themself known to each and every one of their people. A god could not call themself God if they did not present themself to all of their people. The purpose of a god is to have their people acknowledge and serve them. In order to do that, they would have to make themself evident in the lives of their people, thus being just.

 

[Niamh]

I once felt this exact same way. I believe that in order for someone to find an answer to that very question, they must search objectively. To do that they must at least, hypothetically accept that if there is a god, that God would be just and everything they say they are. If one is able to accept that, then they must also accept that God would make themself known to each and every one of their people. A god could not call themself God if they did not present themself to all of their people. The purpose of a god is to have their people acknowledge and serve them. In order to do that, they would have to make themself evident in the lives of their people, thus being just.

well, I was born a Catholic and had all the mumbo jumbo taught to me in school. I strongly believe that there is not a "God" watching over us on a cloud somewhere, tbh I don't think we're that significant. We live our lives and then we die, just like all the other animals, insects etc on the planet. I'd also be surprised if the Earth is the only planet with some form of life on it.

 

[Diggin Deep]

I walked away from God many years ago. Why? Because when someone asked me why I believed the way I did, I had no answer; no foundation. When I searched for an understanding, I only found myself falling farther away, because of the God I saw in the O.T. I found that eventually, I quit searching and trying to understand altogether. I chose not to believe, not only because He pissed me off, but also because He conflicted with the lifestyle that I wanted to live. Even though I made this decision, I can honestly say that there was a never a day when I didn't feel some sort of spiritual battle - I just chose to ignore it and argue with those who tried to sway me. Over the course of the last few years I decided to pick back up my search to disprove God and rid myself of the spiritual battle. Little did I know that I would find myself back in a relationship with Him. And for the first time in my life - I can say I know why I believe. I have a foundation. I may not know all there is to know, nor understand every aspect of The Bible or God, but I believe and I believe that is what is most important.

I have attempted to respond to some of the main objections that atheism has to believing in God. I think I've offered good answers to these objections based on my own journey. There are some that we haven't discussed, such as the there's not enough evidence; it adds nothing to what we know from science; and theism is just bad for people. We can discuss those also if anyone would like.

When I decided to change my mind and openly discuss religion on this forum, it was not to prove that "my" way is right or even the best way. It was simply because I wanted to be a voice and share my personal journey. I wanted to show that not every person who considers themself a Christian is judgemental and unable to discuss religion without damning all non-believers to hell. I wanted to show that some Christians actually know why they believe the way they do, not just believe. I wanted to make an attempt to remove the reasons one rejects God - that's only the first step in the process...

I propose this...since the majority of this discussion on this thread has been regarding Old Testament God and His judgemental, harsh, and "genocidal" side. Would you be willing to step outside of that way of thinking for just a minute.

Can I show you God, the God I serve now? I can think of no better way to do this other than by offering this: Read one or more of the Gospels in the New Testament. Each of them have different accounts, but all lead to the same thing. You may have read them before, but try again. What you take from it is your choice. Where you choose to rest your faith is your choice.

 

[Diggin Deep]

well, I was born a Catholic and had all the mumbo jumbo taught to me in school. I strongly believe that there is not a "God" watching over us on a cloud somewhere, tbh I don't think we're that significant. We live our lives and then we die, just like all the other animals, insects etc on the planet. I'd also be surprised if the Earth is the only planet with some form of life on it.

A very fair and honest opinion. Thank you