Teachers And Pay Raises

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Alien Allen

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Apples and Oranges

You can complain about what the corp big whigs make and it don't mean shit as far as the legacy costs in govt.

You continue under the mistaken belief that you can tax the 1% and solve the problem. That does not mean I am totally against raising their taxes but don't fool yourself into believing it is the answer long term. The numbers do not support that

I agree about the managers of funds and banks not deserving outrageous payoffs in perks. Something which Bush and then Obama and congress had the ability to control for those getting bailouts. All three did squat and have done squat to address that. Thus my point in the OWS threads that it is pointless to protest anywhere but where the problem started. GOVT.
 
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MainerMikeBrown

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As it stands, most of the locals in my town don't make much money. So if the teachers had there way and got a large raise, then guess who'd have to pay more taxes to pay for it? The citizens of my town is who, the same folks who aren't making much, if they're working at all. And these people would have to work even more hours to pay for the raises despite the fact that they already work just as hard at their jobs as teachers do at theirs.
 

Johnfromokc

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Apples and Oranges

That's your opinion - as you are wont to repeat.

You can complain about what the corp big whigs make and it don't mean shit as far as the legacy costs in govt.

Bull. Fucking. Shit. When the fucking big wigs bankrupt public employee pension funds it causes these "legacy" problems you keep complaining about.

You continue under the mistaken belief that you can tax the 1% and solve the problem. That does not mean I am totally against raising their taxes but don't fool yourself into believing it is the answer long term. The numbers do not support that

Show me some numbers Allen.

The answer is to rein in these unregulated Wall Street looters. Prosecute the ones responsible for this mess along with their legislative pawns. Confiscate their ill gotten gains to pay retribution for the lives they have destroyed.

Why is it the middle class and the working poor are always made to pay when the rich fuck us over Allen?

And why, Allen, do some middle class people like you always call for the working class to give up their legacy while the criminal rich keep theirs? They will fuck you over as you defend them - like all useful idiots in their eyes - they don't give a fuck about you either.

I agree about the managers of funds and banks not deserving outrageous payoffs in perks. Something which Bush and then Obama and congress had the ability to control for those getting bailouts. All three did squat and have done squat to address that. Thus my point in the OWS threads that it is pointless to protest anywhere but where the problem started. GOVT.

You keep saying OWS is pointless but that is the only movement keeping the attention on the real problem. There are SIX lobbyists for each federal legislator in Washinton. That's over 3,000 representatives for big banking and big business and not a goddamned one for We The People.

OWS can be the catalyst of real change, but good middle class hardworking people - like you Allen - fight against the very movements that could help us all. And there is indeed an Occupy DC movement as well as an Occupy Congress movement. You are not going to get that story from one of the six major corporate news outlets.

Democrat versus Republican is simple subterfuge - the people who control Americal are laughing their asses off as people like you defend them and rail against OWS. Half of the voting population has bought into the bogus "job creator" argument and are kissing the asses of those who are fucking them. Useful idiots indeed.
 

Alien Allen

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Bull. Fucking. Shit. When the fucking big wigs bankrupt public employee pension funds it causes these "legacy" problems you keep complaining about.

Where do you come up with this one

Good grief if you want to blame legacy costs on so called looting of retirement funds we are done. I am not saying those funds have been messed with. But I it is not the root cause and even at that many of the shenanigans were done by those in charge of the cities.

But then you are no doubt going to blame the future insolvency of SS on the lack of Gores lock box.

I wish Mulder would show up and respond. I don't have the energy as I have a lot of other personal stuff on my plate.

Like I said you can tax the rich as much as you want but it will not pay for what you expect.

We all have a stake in the future. Yet almost 50% don't pay federal taxes yet nobody on the left will address that other than to say the 1% does not pay enough.

Just as a reminder this is all IMO
 

Johnfromokc

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Where do you come up with this one

I actually investigate issues Allen. You should try it. ;)

Put this in your NetFlix queue:

http://www.sonyclassics.com/insidejob/

We all have a stake in the future. Yet almost 50% don't pay federal taxes yet nobody on the left will address that other than to say the 1% does not pay enough.

And this statement is completely false - yet you continue to repeat it. This is nothing but propaganda designed to divide the middle and working classes against themselves. You have drank the Koolaide Allen.

Here - do a little reading and educate yourself.

http://www.salon.com/2011/12/08/the_insane_wealth_of_walmarts_founding_family/

Just six members of the Walton family, heirs to the Walmart fortune, possess wealth equal to that of the entire bottom 30 percent of Americans.

Now that is a fact Allen - unlike that bullshit you keep repeating about "50% pay no federal taxes".

Here, have another read:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/...ess-person-who-is-hurt-by millionaires-surtax

Seems the claimers that those elusive "job creators" will be hurt by the millionaire surtax can't locate a single small business that would be harmed in any way by it.

Why do you continue to defend those that are fucking this country Allen?
 

MainerMikeBrown

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With the current recession America is in, those who are presently working as a teacher should just be glad that they have a job. Plenty of folks who work in other professions are either out of work or working one or more low paying menial jobs just to make ends meet.
 

Johnfromokc

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With the current recession America is in, those who are presently working as a teacher should just be glad that they have a job. Plenty of folks who work in other professions are either out of work or working one or more low paying menial jobs just to make ends meet.

Hell yeah! That's the right attitude! Take one for the team. The Wall Street power elite that fucked us all did not lose one thin dime as many of us lost not only our jobs - but our entire life savings. And we are told every time the Wall Street elite fucks us like this that we - the working class should be happy to have any old low paying job with no benifits we can get while those that fucked us sacrifice NOTHING.

Tell me Mike - is that the way things should be?
 

MainerMikeBrown

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John, nobody ever said the capitalist system was perfect. In a perfect world, we'd all make as much money as those on Wall Street.

But as it stands, people in my hometown can't afford tax raises so teachers can get paid more. Even in good economic times, my town is an economically poor, rural town.

When you decide to try to become a teacher in a small, working-class town such as mine, you have to accept the fact before you apply for a teaching position that the pay is nothing great here. It's not necessarily fair. It's just the way it is. The citizens in poor towns don't have the ability to pay good money to their school teachers.

Why don't these teachers get this through their head?! Enough is enough!
 

Alien Allen

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And this statement is completely false - yet you continue to repeat it. This is nothing but propaganda designed to divide the middle and working classes against themselves. You have drank the Koolaide Allen.

two separate issues

and still no response to 50% not paying any income tax

any other source than a blog to verify the Walton comment?

any source indicating how much in taxes those six pay every year?
 

Johnfromokc

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John, nobody ever said the capitalist system was perfect. In a perfect world, we'd all make as much money as those on Wall Street.

But as it stands, people in my hometown can't afford tax raises so teachers can get paid more. Even in good economic times, my town is an economically poor, rural town.

When you decide to try to become a teacher in a small, working-class town such as mine, you have to accept the fact before you apply for a teaching position that the pay is nothing great here. It's not necessarily fair. It's just the way it is. The citizens in poor towns don't have the ability to pay good money to their school teachers.

Why don't these teachers get this through their head?! Enough is enough!

You sure have it through your head that the middle class should suffer while the wealthiest live large. The Wall Street dictated education system has taught you well.

How much money are these greedy teachers asking fo Mike? Lets see some figures.

two separate issues

and still no response to 50% not paying any income tax

any other source than a blog to verify the Walton comment?

any source indicating how much in taxes those six pay every year?

I've posted page after page of information refuting this oft repeatd 50% pay no tax (mysteriously now up from the previous 47%) myth - yet here you are again. It's like a turd that won't flush and keeps floating up after multiple flushes.

You know the bottom 50% of American workers earn only 12% of all income earned. Every worker I know pays federal income tax, along with all the other various and sundry payroll taxes, sales taxes, telephone taxes, automobile taxes, gasoline taxes, natural gas taxes, city taxes - on and on. Some get most of what they pay in back because their incomes are so low - so the fuck what? If they have it so fucking good, then join their ranks and live the good life alongside them. Give up your difficult, tax paying middle class lifestyle and join the working poor for a real easy life.

How much more of their pissy little 12% would you like the bottom 50% to pay Allen? You defend the Waltons who hold more wealth than the bottom 30% combined, yet you want to fuck over the the entire bottom 50%?? How much sense does that make?

CBPP47percent.jpg



How much good for this weakened economy do you actually believe it would do to increase federal taxes on the bottom 50%, who at the upper end earn $35,000 per year? How would that help america to take even more money out of the economy and give it to the wealthiest to hoard in trust funds like the Waltons????



Whatever the Waltons pay in tax, it is apparently too much for them. It must be pretty hard living on an $84,000,000,000 trust fund. Oops...silly me - that was 2005's fortune - try living on a mere $93,000,000,000 in this harsh 2011 economy.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2005-04-05-waltons-usat_x.htm

My goodness - look what they spent lobbying to pay even less tax in 2004:

Wal-Mart (WMT) drew broad scrutiny last year as its political spending soared in nationwide battles over health care, labor and other hot-button issues threatening the giant retailer's growth.

Now, in a little-noticed move, the company's founding family has plunged into a fight to pass income tax changes and other legislation that could preserve its grip on the USA's biggest business and the family's $84 billion fortune.

Led by Sam Walton's only daughter, Alice, the family spent $3.2 million on lobbying, conservative causes and candidates for last year's federal elections. That's more than double what it spent in the previous two elections combined, public documents show.

The Waltons have joined a coterie of wealthy families trying to save fortunes through permanent repeal of the estate tax, government watchdogs say. The election of President Bush and more conservatives to Congress gave momentum to the long-fought effort. The Waltons add more.


The Walton support for Bush and other fiscal conservatives assumed new urgency last month when Wal-Mart sweetened its dividend — boosting Walton dividend income above $1 billion a year. Bush's dividend tax cut, enacted two years ago and set to expire in 2009, will save the family as much as $51 million this year.

From a Fortune Magazine 2005 article:

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2004/11/15/8191093/index.htm

If Wal-Mart, with its quarter-trillion dollars in annual sales, is almost unimaginably massive, then the Waltons' great wealth is its equal in a parallel universe of private fortunes. The Walton family is as rich as Bill Gates and Warren Buffett combined. Amid all the talk about how rich Teresa Heinz Kerry is, consider that the Walton family is 117 times wealthier. The Waltons' $90 billion fortune is equivalent to the GDP of Singapore. It's bigger than IBM's annual revenues. The dividend stream from the family's holdings produces nearly $880 million annually. It's likely that only the Rockefellers--before John D. gave away much of his fortune --were wealthier. And that's after adjusting for inflation. In sheer dollar terms, the Waltons are far richer.
 

Alien Allen

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care to show where I defended the Waltons?

Is it defending them to question how much they pay in taxes and how much they donate?

Another question. If Americans got smart and abandoned Walmart and it went bankrupt how much would the Walton family be worth? Is most of their wealth in company stock?

John what do you think about Soros and his wealth? He is in the top ten in wealth and got it from being a hedge fund manager didn't he? Any outrage over what he has done and the backs he has broken to amass his wealth.. Along with how he uses that wealth to manipulate? The Koch Brothers get ridiculed by the left,, rightfully so I would think so why no outrage on Soros from the left? Or is it ok to screw everybody over to get wealthy as long as one is a liberal who does it?
 
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Johnfromokc

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care to show where I defended the Waltons?

Every time you bring up that bogus "50% pay no taxes" lie, you are defending the top 1%. I damned sure don't see you raising hell about corporate welfare and the billions of our tax dollars that go to corporations that pay no taxes.

And I have never seen you call for the prosecution of the Wall Streeters that caused this financial meltdown. Neither have I seen you call for restitution to be paid by these people that screwed us all but kept every fucking cent they stole from us.

Lets just call you a walton defender by default shall we. :)
 

Accountable

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John, nobody ever said the capitalist system was perfect. In a perfect world, we'd all make as much money as those on Wall Street.
No, actually they wouldn't. But neither would the Wall Street guys. They pay good money for Washington to pave Wall Street & keep it free of pot holes (competition).

But as it stands, people in my hometown can't afford tax raises so teachers can get paid more. Even in good economic times, my town is an economically poor, rural town.

When you decide to try to become a teacher in a small, working-class town such as mine, you have to accept the fact before you apply for a teaching position that the pay is nothing great here. It's not necessarily fair. It's just the way it is. The citizens in poor towns don't have the ability to pay good money to their school teachers.

Why don't these teachers get this through their head?! Enough is enough!
Are teachers in your town complaining about their pay? You've read an article or something that says as much?
 

Johnfromokc

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Another question. If Americans got smart and abandoned Walmart and it went bankrupt how much would the Walton family be worth? Is most of their wealth in company stock?

Their wealth is in stock and other forms such that the most they could possibly have to pay in taxes is the 15% capital gains rate. Last check they were making $881,000,000 in capital gains from hoarded income alone. You can rest assured they have plans to protect their fortune from the currently non-existent angry masses.

John what do you think about Soros and his wealth? He is in the top ten in wealth and got it from being a hedge fund manager didn't he? Any outrage over what he has done and the backs he has broken to amass his wealth.. Along with how he uses that wealth to manipulate? The Koch Brothers get ridiculed by the left,, rightfully so I would think so why no outrage on Soros from the left? Or is it ok to screw everybody over to get wealthy as long as one is a liberal who does it?

I have tremendous respect for Soros. He is completely self made unlike the Waltons or the Kochs who inherited their wealth. I also have great respect for Warren Buffet and Bill gates - also self made. Between 1979 and 2011, Soros gave away over $8 billion to human rights, public health, and education causes. And that is why the right hates him.

And tell me Allen - whose backs did Soros break? Be specific. And tell me how his wealth manipuates or harms the poor or working class? Again, provide specific examples.
 

MainerMikeBrown

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When my teachers complained about pay to us high school students, we would often ask them how much, in general, they got paid annually.

The teachers would never answer that question, as they felt it was inappropriate to divulge that information to us.

First of all, if these teachers had more common sense regarding what's appropriate and what isn't, they would've never discussed this subject with us in the first place. And second, how were us students supposed to agree with their arguements since they would never state what teachers generally were paid in our high school?
 

Alien Allen

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I have tremendous respect for Soros. He is completely self made unlike the Waltons

There ya go

Wealth envy

Sam Walton was self made. If he was still alive you would be pitching a fit about him instead of his kids

As to Soros it is no surprise you like him. He is a socialist. He is the ultimate hyprocrite as he rails against capitalism but manipulats the system to raise his wealth.
 

Accountable

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When my teachers complained about pay to us high school students, we would often ask them how much, in general, they got paid annually.

The teachers would never answer that question, as they felt it was inappropriate to divulge that information to us.

First of all, if these teachers had more common sense regarding what's appropriate and what isn't, they would've never discussed this subject with us in the first place. And second, how were us students supposed to agree with their arguements since they would never state what teachers generally were paid in our high school?
LOL! Good observation. The teacher (I find it hard to swallow that it was more than one) probably wouldn't tell you because he suddenly realized his paycheck didn't look so paltry when compared to your allowance. :24:
 

Accountable

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There ya go

Wealth envy

Sam Walton was self made. If he was still alive you would be pitching a fit about him instead of his kids

As to Soros it is no surprise you like him. He is a socialist. He is the ultimate hyprocrite as he rails against capitalism but manipulats the system to raise his wealth.
I remember John speaking relatively well of Sam Walton, so I went and found it.
Companies like Wal-Mart have been screwing over small communities ever since Sam Walton died and his entitled children took over and turned it into the Chinese Products Distribution Network.
 

Alien Allen

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John made the comment about his kids

I think it is a reasonable assumption if Sam were still alive John would be railing about Waltons wealth

Walmart would have continued to grow under Sam. He was a pretty savy ergo via liberal logic ruthless businessman
 
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