Supreme Court Defends Righ Of US Citizens To Live On Terrifying Streets

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Tim

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I also find it quite amusing that those in this thread who are berating my views on the 2nd amendment and gun ownership never exercised their own right to own a gun...

Seriously, go out and take a course, buy a few dozen guns and put thousands of rounds through them... then come back to me and talk to me about the virtues of an armed society to protect against a tyrannical government. Until that happens, your nothing more than spectators not even capable of protecting your own household let alone fend off a tyrannical government. :24:
 
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Tim

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I agree, a handgun for self defense isn't necessarily the most useful. A 12 gauge > handgun any day... unless you're worried about collateral damage to your house :24:

It is much safer to shoot a shotgun indoors than a handgun. The round of a handgun can go through several walls hitting much more than you bargain for.
 

Guyzerr

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You make it sound like you can't own a gun in Canada. Canada has the 9th largest collection of privately owned guns in the world.
With a simple test and registration you can go out and buy a nice 12gage that will provide more protection than any handgun.


I'm sure you dug up those stats somewhere and they're probably correct. The problem I have with it though is I can honestly say I know very, very few people that actually own guns and those that do are mainly farmers. The rest, and I mean very few are hunters so I really don't know who owns 'em all.

I used to own rifles and pistols with all the loading/casting equipment but it became too much of a hassle to keep them. Our laws are very strict.. to the point of being a downright pain in the ass. The benefits didn't add up for all the trouble it caused so one Saturday I loaded the whole mess in the car, drove to a gun shop and sold the whole shebang. I actually felt better once they were out of the house because I didn't have to worry about them being stolen.
 

Guyzerr

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This is kinda the way it is in Canada. :24:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00OUOplZ2E8

The 300 Winchester magnum I owned was my favorite until the cops visited my place one Sunday evening. Here's the story...

I lived on the 10th floor of an apartment and I was sitting at my table cleaning the gun which is something I always did when I got home from the range. Once finished I locked it up in the cabinet ( it's a must ) . The bullets were stored in a different location and they were under lock and key as well. Anywhoo... a few minutes later the cops are banging on my door and they started quizing me about " waving " a gun in the air. I explained what I did to which they politely asked to have a look see. I let them in, showed them where everything was and that satisfied them. They bid me a good night but not before they " cautioned " me as to how I shouldn't have let the cleaning guy in the next tower see me holding a rifle. :24:
 

dt3

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Check out what I found!

http://manybooks.net/titles/hamiltonaletext98feder10a.html

The Federalist Papers in free Ebook formats ... even audio book!
I downloaded them on my Droid a few weeks ago, been reading them since. Its kind of depressing because they're so massive, but definitely interesting.

I also find it quite amusing that those in this thread who are berating my views on the 2nd amendment and gun ownership never exercised their own right to own a gun...

Seriously, go out and take a course, buy a few dozen guns and put thousands of rounds through them... then come back to me and talk to me about the virtues of an armed society to protect against a tyrannical government. Until that happens, your nothing more than spectators not even capable of protecting your own household let alone fend off a tyrannical government. :24:
Hey Tim, have you ever exercised your right to a speedy trial by a jury of your peers? If not, how can you be against detaining people at Gitmo indefinitely? Hell, nobody since 1776 has ever exercised their right to not quarter troops in their home, but I damn sure reserve the right if needed. You don't have to exercise a right to have it.

Seriously, that is the weakest argument you've ever made on here.

And of course I have put thousands of rounds down range, and own a gun...but you ignored the point I made. Convenient. :rolleyes:
 
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Zorak

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If that's what you think, then you obviously know nothing about American history. That Amendment is in place for precisely the same reason that led to the formation of this country to begin with.

Great Britain had highly trained professional soldiers too... while we were just a ragtag bunch of civilians for the most part. The only thing that makes it "outdated" is the fact that it's been watered down by a bunch of liberals over the years.

Not a great reply. Simplistic, arrogant. And lacking a knowledge in military history. But chiefly, you speak of history and can't see the irony in a discussion of something being outdated. But let's talk history anyway, since it only serves me better.

Great Britain had a contingent of professional soldiers, but they were no better trained than the colonial miltia that they employed in fact, because the War of Indpendence started at a time when Thomas Gage was still commander in chief of the British armed forces in America. Gage was the principal advocat who believed that the foundation of the Empire lay once again in a strong Navy, and smaller armies backed up by colonial militia.

By a few years into the war, America's standing army consisted of Colonial Militia and ex-British soldiers with decades of war experience in America, chiefly fighting for Britain in the 7 years war.
The United States also boasted a more suitable navy for the country, Britain still fielded the large hulled vessels, whose hulls were larger to be able to carry more firepower, but couldn't traverse the plentiful shallow water harbours, rivers, and bays of America. The US navy on the other hand had embraced the French design, of shallow hulls and less sails which better suited the Eastern coast of America.

Of course then came international assistance, Spain and France contributed their troops, ships and supplies to America, while Britain signed treaties with a number of Germanic states.

Where am I going? Well, I'd like you to draw your own conclusion as to just how rag-tag your civilian army was, but also still make comparisons to then and now.
We know US Military forces now number 3,000,000, including reserves. Compare that to the British forces during 1775, which by all sources numbered 36,000. And we can safely assume that both have and would have had sationed forces all over the world.

As to your last comment, well, I feel your pain. But you do realise you just agreed with my original point and contradicted yourself, you admit it is outdated. It is irrelevant.
I suppose it is un-constitutional for the government to say it's illegal for civlians to own fully automatic high powered M4A1 Carbine rifles, F-22 Raptors, M1A2 Abrams tanks and keep the Nimitz class super-carriers all for themselves...

I don't want to repeat myself, but I can't see beyond the second amendment in modern times, being nothing more than a piece of tradition that allows the freedom for American people to enjoy small arms legally. Seeing how it offers little protection against any form of tyrannical US government, or military coup.
Not that I have a problem with that, guns are cool.
 
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dt3

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:24: whoa Zorak, ironclads weren't until the 1860s! The British navy was far superior to ours, which is one reason we relied so heavily on the French.
 
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Zorak

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Sorry you're right, but it was an honest mistake, I was thinking of the French ship and getting confused between later battles between France and England. But the point about the hulls is still correct from what I remember.
 

Alien Allen

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The 2nd amendment is just as relevant today as it was back then for the same reasons.

When the liberals finally go far enough this country will revolt

May not be in my lifetime but eventually there will be a last straw
 

Accountable

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You have no faith in democracy? Scary! I might not always agree with the government of my country but I've never seen the need to get so drastic that I have to invade Westminster and kill politicians!:willy_nilly:
We're not a democracy. I have great faith in human nature, though, in a positive way. I too have not seen the need to revolt, but that doesn't mean there has never been the need. There has. And since there has, there may be again. Since there may be the need to revolt in the future, I like the idea of the insurance our 2nd amendment provides, because it is much harder to oppress an armed populace than an unarmed one.
 

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It is much safer to shoot a shotgun indoors than a handgun. The round of a handgun can go through several walls hitting much more than you bargain for.
Hi, Tim! :waving:

I know it's been several pages so I understand if you've forgotten, but you made a couple of statements I asked you about and you never got around to answering them. One of them I'll drop because I know you were being sarcastic, but the other one is really important.

You wrote "I believe that each and every state/locality has the right to determine what's right for them." You also wrote "I'm in the camp that the 2nd amendment protects states rights, not individual rights. It prevents the federal government from taking gun rights, but it does not explicitly grant gun rights to everyone."

Does that go for the other 9 amendments, or is the second one more special, Tim?[/QUOTE]
 

Tim

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Hey Tim, have you ever exercised your right to a speedy trial by a jury of your peers? If not, how can you be against detaining people at Gitmo indefinitely? Hell, nobody since 1776 has ever exercised their right to not quarter troops in their home, but I damn sure reserve the right if needed. You don't have to exercise a right to have it.

Seriously, that is the weakest argument you've ever made on here.

And of course I have put thousands of rounds down range, and own a gun...but you ignored the point I made. Convenient. :rolleyes:

Not a weak argument, but I wasn't very clear... so let me clarify

The whole argument in this thread has hinged around the intent of the 2nd amendment and how an armed populist is a check to a tyrannical government. With this I fully agree.
BUT, and this is a big but... If you are going to sit there and tell me that the 2nd amendment is more important than ever today, then you better be armed and ready. Because if you are preaching to me how important it is for the population to be armed in case of a tyrannical government and you don't even bother to arm yourself, then you're fucking hypocrite. Either that, or they don't believe what they are saying.
 

dt3

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Not a weak argument, but I wasn't very clear... so let me clarify

The whole argument in this thread has hinged around the intent of the 2nd amendment and how an armed populist is a check to a tyrannical government. With this I fully agree.
BUT, and this is a big but... If you are going to sit there and tell me that the 2nd amendment is more important than ever today, then you better be armed and ready. Because if you are preaching to me how important it is for the population to be armed in case of a tyrannical government and you don't even bother to arm yourself, then you're fucking hypocrite. Either that, or they don't believe what they are saying.

But you're ignoring the third possibility: maybe it is needed now more than ever, but there are bigger priorities at the moment. Maybe they choose to pay rent instead of buying a gun. Maybe the needs of meeting daily life are more important that being personally armed is right now. Maybe it isn't hypocrisy, but priorities? It's a personal decision, and shouldn't detract from the debate.

I support freedom of religion, and think its one of our most important rights, but I'm not even minutely religious. That doesn't make my views on the issue irrelevant.
 

Tim

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So Amendments 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10 are for the people; number 2 is for the States? Do you truly believe that? Even the damn ACLU admits that they are individual rights:

I'm not saying the second amendment was only for the states... But if you go back and look at the background of the 2nd amendment you will see that having state militia's were very important. The idea was to never have a standing army in a time of peace and have individuals ready to serve in their state militia at a moments notice. There was even talk about every man of age required to have a pack ready with a musket, set number of rounds, powder, etc.
With militia's being as important to the states as they were, it was important to make sure the federal government did not have the power to take that away. If you read the earlier state constitutions, the wording is actually much clearer and the intent was easier to see.
So some believe that the second amendment was a protection given to the states to have individuals armed and ready for their militia, since it's the states that organize their own militia's.
 

Tim

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But you're ignoring the third possibility: maybe it is needed now more than ever, but there are bigger priorities at the moment. Maybe they choose to pay rent instead of buying a gun. Maybe the needs of meeting daily life are more important that being personally armed is right now. Maybe it isn't hypocrisy, but priorities? It's a personal decision, and shouldn't detract from the debate.

I support freedom of religion, and think its one of our most important rights, but I'm not even minutely religious. That doesn't make my views on the issue irrelevant.

Not buying that for one second.
If you think that it's important to arm yourself, then you will find a way to do so. Give me $100 and I'll get you a high powered rifle with a box of rounds. It won't be pretty, but it will shoot straight. Or do they need to hold out to buy a shiny nickle plated limited edition gun to properly protect their freedoms from our tyrannical government? ;)
 

Alien Allen

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So some believe that the second amendment was a protection given to the states to have individuals armed and ready for their militia, since it's the states that organize their own militia's.
And those would be the ones who ignored the rest of the background for why there was a 2nd amendment. The fact it is the 2nd amendment should tell you something right there. This was about individuals. If it was meant to refer to state militias only it would have stated that.
 

dt3

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I'm not saying the second amendment was only for the states... But if you go back and look at the background of the 2nd amendment you will see that having state militia's were very important. The idea was to never have a standing army in a time of peace and have individuals ready to serve in their state militia at a moments notice. There was even talk about every man of age required to have a pack ready with a musket, set number of rounds, powder, etc.
With militia's being as important to the states as they were, it was important to make sure the federal government did not have the power to take that away. If you read the earlier state constitutions, the wording is actually much clearer and the intent was easier to see.
So some believe that the second amendment was a protection given to the states to have individuals armed and ready for their militia, since it's the states that organize their own militia's.
Now you're changing your opinion slightly. Earlier you said it was up to the state/local government. Using what you just said, the city of Chicago has no business trying to take a right granted to the state of Illinois. So which do you want to stick with?
Not buying that for one second.
If you think that it's important to arm yourself, then you will find a way to do so. Give me $100 and I'll get you a high powered rifle with a box of rounds. It won't be pretty, but it will shoot straight. Or do they need to hold out to buy a shiny nickle plated limited edition gun to properly protect their freedoms from our tyrannical government? ;)
A fair point, but that in no way does that invalidate their argument. It doesn't have any impact on their interpretation of the Constitution.
 
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