Soul and human body

[GraceAbounds]

I find it quite interesting that there is such a need for people to believe in something "bigger" The need for immortality, that there must be something beyond the grave.

Believing that there is something 'bigger' out there is a tremendous truth in my life. It is sad to me that people don't realize that there is something 'bigger' out there. It really makes a difference in how one lives, talks, acts, etc.

For those that argue the point that you cannot disprove that people have a soul, then you must also agree that one cannot prove it either.

I think that the soul is a type of conscious energy of sorts, so I don't really need proof as it already exists. It was, it is, it will always be.

And since you cannot show that there is a soul, then why do you believe it?

For me personally I believe that my life experiences tell me other wise.

We would not even be having this conversation if someone hadn't told you that you have a soul.
This concept of a soul is learned and not natural.

I believe people have a built in yearning inside of them that seeks and questions. Humans try to fill that yearning inside of themselves with things of this world and end up never truly satisfied, and if so ... not for very long. They want and they want and they want. We are all constantly questioning and questioning and wanting and yearning. I don't think any of us need to be told as we have this unexplained yearning, this hidden away emptiness inside of us. The only thing that fills that is the Creator imo.

This is what happens when people look for answers that aren't there.

Ah, but those answers are there. And for the ones that have found those answers and have been blessed, you'll never be able to tell them otherwise. It is just too powerful and too good.

To wonder if there is something bigger than you or wonder if there is reason for your existence, does not make your conclusions correct.

I'd definitely agree with that.

The whole religion, afterlife, soul and supernatural debate is nothing more than a continuation of your ancestors questioning of life itself.

For people that do not have a relationship with God I am sure that is how it would logically appear.

The only difference is how refined the discussion has become, but it's still flawed logic.

If having faith and hope is flawed logic, so be it. I'll take intellectualism with faith over intellectualism without faith any day.

 

[groundpounder]

I'll take intellectualism with faith over intellectualism without faith any day.

easily one of the best 2 or 3 posts I've ever read here. Quite possibly the best. That is excellent!

 

[HisHoliness]

So by this definition, dogs, cats, birds all have a soul. They show emotion as well.

I find it quite interesting that there is such a need for people to believe in something "bigger" The need for immortality, that there must be something beyond the grave.

For those that argue the point that you cannot disprove that people have a soul, then you must also agree that one cannot prove it either. And since you cannot show that there is a soul, then why do you believe it? We would not even be having this conversation if someone hadn't told you that you have a soul. This concept of a soul is learned and not natural. This is what happens when people look for answers that aren't there. To wonder if there is something bigger than you or wonder if there is reason for your existence, does not make your conclusions correct.

The whole religion, afterlife, soul and supernatural debate is nothing more than a continuation of your ancestors questioning of life itself. The only difference is how refined the discussion has become, but it's still flawed logic. Just because Neanderthal man had an epiphany does not mean you have a soul

I've struggled thinking about this very thing. I can understand what PT says, which is basically "when you die, you're dead." But that really only works with the objectivity of an outside viewpoint. For example, when PT dies, he's dead to me. What I'm more curious about is how we internally realize, cope, and move on (if that happens) with our own deaths. i.e. when I die, what am I to me?

I believe my body and consciousness is the only way I can relate to anything, including my own death.

So I wonder, when we're dead does time for us sit still? Do we spend the rest of our existence in that very last second of breath thinking about the course of our life until our demise? It can't be a matter of just turning us off. I don't think the human mind is capable of understanding it's own end.

 

[Tim]

But who we are is contained within the human mind. When it's turned off, we cease to exist. If there is no electrical activity in our brain, that's it, we're done. People believe in afterlife because they cannot come to terms with their own mortality.

If having faith and hope is flawed logic, so be it. I'll take intellectualism with faith over intellectualism without faith any day.

I never said I live my life without faith. Everyday my life is filled with hope, joy, faith and intellectualism. I just don't have faith in a higher power.

 

[Tim]

We would not even be having this conversation if someone hadn't told you that you have a soul.
This concept of a soul is learned and not natural.

I believe people have a built in yearning inside of them that seeks and questions. Humans try to fill that yearning inside of themselves with things of this world and end up never truly satisfied, and if so ... not for very long. They want and they want and they want. We are all constantly questioning and questioning and wanting and yearning. I don't think any of us need to be told as we have this unexplained yearning, this hidden away emptiness inside of us. The only thing that fills that is the Creator imo.

I agree with this and this is why we have alcoholics, drug addicts and fetishes. There are certain people who NEED to grab onto something and hold onto it, whether it be a bible or a bottle. Then there are people who are happy with whom they are and will never fall into alcoholism or addiction (be it drugs, sex or religion)

 

[groundpounder]

Allow me to rephrase:

I'll take intellectualism with faith in a higher power and that I'm part of a bigger picture than what I see over intellectualism without faith in a higher power and that I'm part of a bigger picture than what I see any day.

 

[groundpounder]

However, I struggle with some of what Tim is saying.

In our struggle for understanding, is Faith in God something we cling to in order to make ourselves feel better about the unknown? I worry about that. What if the atheists are right?

Then I think, what if they're wrong?

 

[groundpounder]

Four outcomes

Atheists are right - no positive outcome (nothing out there)
Atheists are wrong - no positive outcome (being wrong about God will probably carry grave consequences)
Believers are wrong - no positive outcome (nothing out there, faith is a myth)
Believers are right - positive outcome (God will accept you into everlasting life)

So I don't see the appeal in atheism - even if you're right, there's nothing out there. It's all a big void.

 

[GraceAbounds]

But who we are is contained within the human mind. When it's turned off, we cease to exist. If there is no electrical activity in our brain, that's it, we're done.

I don't believe that who we are is contained solely within the human mind. Electrical activity does not have to stay in our brain to exist. Energy is in constant transfer around us.

People believe in afterlife because they cannot come to terms with their own mortality.

I do not believe in an afterlife because I can't come to terms with my mortality. In fact, even if there was not an afterlife I would still believe in God. One does not have to die to experience His love and His peace which makes life 'more'.

I never said I live my life without faith. Everyday my life is filled with hope, joy, faith and intellectualism. I just don't have faith in a higher power.

I was referring to faith in God since this topic kind of brought that into play. I'm sorry for not being more specific when speaking of faith. I did not mean it in the generic sense. Before I came to Christ, I also had faith, hope, joy, etc. But they are on totally different levels as I've experienced both. It is a paradigm shift and it is hard to explain. I guess if it was easy to explain everyone would believe as people would be fools to not want a peace that is transcending among many other blessings that are just about impossible and remarkable to put into words. (at least for me as my heart starts to overflow just thinking about it)

 

[Dana]

Four outcomes

Atheists are right - no positive outcome (nothing out there)
Atheists are wrong - no positive outcome (being wrong about God will probably carry grave consequences)
Believers are wrong - no positive outcome (nothing out there, faith is a myth)
Believers are right - positive outcome (God will accept you into everlasting life)

So I don't see the appeal in atheism - even if you're right, there's nothing out there. It's all a big void.

true... who wants to believe we just end up as earthworm chow? thats no fun

 

[Tim]

However, I struggle with some of what Tim is saying.

In our struggle for understanding, is Faith in God something we cling to in order to make ourselves feel better about the unknown? I worry about that. What if the atheists are right?

Then I think, what if they're wrong?

And you don't think this has crossed my mind?

You need to understand where I come from and how I got to where I am.

From birth until I was 18, I was a devout Christian. My entire family was/still is. Church on Sunday morning, Sunday evening, Wednesday evening and Thursday evening. Half my week was going to church. I even attended Christian school for a while. There was never a doubt in my mind that Jesus died on the cross for our sins and the only way into heaven was through him. I have read the bible word for word numerous times, I have heard sermons on every topic. But as I got older I had many questions that the church could not answer, that prayer did not answer. There was no Holy spirit moving me, only a joy from fellowship with other Christians....

So to say that I don't know what it is to live the "other" life is not knowing my story.

All I can say is that my life is complete... I am very happy with who I am.

 

[Tim]

Four outcomes

Atheists are right - no positive outcome (nothing out there)
Atheists are wrong - no positive outcome (being wrong about God will probably carry grave consequences)
Believers are wrong - no positive outcome (nothing out there, faith is a myth)
Believers are right - positive outcome (God will accept you into everlasting life)

So I don't see the appeal in atheism - even if you're right, there's nothing out there. It's all a big void.

But your belief should not be some cheap insurance policy... because if you believe for the sole purpose of "What if I'm wrong" then you are wrong and you will burn in hell anyway....... :dunno

So you are still damned...

If you are a true believer, then that line of questioning should never enter your mind. IMHO

 

[COOL_BREEZE2]

Believing that there is something 'bigger' out there is a tremendous truth in my life. It is sad to me that people don't realize that there is something 'bigger' out there. It really makes a difference in how one lives, talks, acts, etc.

I think that the soul is a type of conscious energy of sorts, so I don't really need proof as it already exists. It was, it is, it will always be.

For me personally I believe that my life experiences tell me other wise.

I believe people have a built in yearning inside of them that seeks and questions. Humans try to fill that yearning inside of themselves with things of this world and end up never truly satisfied, and if so ... not for very long. They want and they want and they want. We are all constantly questioning and questioning and wanting and yearning. I don't think any of us need to be told as we have this unexplained yearning, this hidden away emptiness inside of us. The only thing that fills that is the Creator imo.

Ah, but those answers are there. And for the ones that have found those answers and have been blessed, you'll never be able to tell them otherwise. It is just too powerful and too good.

I'd definitely agree with that.

For people that do not have a relationship with God I am sure that is how it would logically appear.

If having faith and hope is flawed logic, so be it. I'll take intellectualism with faith over intellectualism without faith any day.

Wow, you really dissected that one Gracie.

 

[groundpounder]

And you don't think this has crossed my mind?

You need to understand where I come from and how I got to where I am.

From birth until I was 18, I was a devout Christian. My entire family was/still is. Church on Sunday morning, Sunday evening, Wednesday evening and Thursday evening. Half my week was going to church. I even attended Christian school for a while. There was never a doubt in my mind that Jesus died on the cross for our sins and the only way into heaven was through him. I have read the bible word for word numerous times, I have heard sermons on every topic. But as I got older I had many questions that the church could not answer, that prayer did not answer. There was no Holy spirit moving me, only a joy from fellowship with other Christians....

So to say that I don't know what it is to live the "other" life is not knowing my story.

All I can say is that my life is complete... I am very happy with who I am.

I guess it's a good thing that I didn't say that then, no?
And I knew that about you already. You told me in a PM many moons ago...

And I ebb and flow with the same questions, because in my secular mind the whole idea of Heaven, the Holy Trinity and all of the other accrudiments of buckery are absolutely preposterous - some grey-haired, grey bearded celestial omnipotent being that created everything out of nothing? Unconsciousably ridiculous!

Then I look into the eyes of my babies and I'm like, "There's more than biology in there. There's more than electrical signals going from those eyes to some mass of gray goo in their skull that causes those eyes to look back at me with absolute and undiluted love."

And that's where my struggle begins and ends. In my arrogant understanding of what I think I know and how smart I think I am, this is as good as it gets. "Heaven on Earth." No booming voice in the sky.
In my humility, I realize that we could not have what we have in our children without the help of something otherworldly. They're too fabulous...

But your belief should not be some cheap insurance policy... because if you believe for the sole purpose of "What if I'm wrong" then you are wrong and you will burn in hell anyway....... :dunno

So you are still damned...

I do not disagree with this statement.

If you are a true believer, then that line of questioning should never enter your mind. IMHO

This one I do, though. I am a true believer and I question EVERYTHING, so all lines of questioning at one point or another enters my mind. Leads me to either a better understanding or deeper faith.

 

[groundpounder]

And let's get one thing straight:
neither you nor I have an HO.

We're too resolute on how we came by them...

 

[GraceAbounds]

There was never a doubt in my mind that Jesus died on the cross for our sins and the only way into heaven was through him. I have read the bible word for word numerous times, I have heard sermons on every topic. But as I got older I had many questions that the church could not answer, that prayer did not answer. There was no Holy spirit moving me, only a joy from fellowship with other Christians.....

That is how my mother in law feels. She just doesn't feel the Holy Spirit moving her at all. She does not feel that God is using her as an instrument in His plans. And she does not feel His presense. I think she thinks it is suppose to be some big miraculous moment and so she is waiting for that.

I also do not think that she understands what it means let go and let God.

But unlike you who is happy with their life, she isn't... at least not ever for very long. She is in a constant state of anxiety and will not do what is 'right' because it is too uncomfortable to do so, yet by not doing what is right the problems continue to get worse and so she thinks God is not answering her - yet she is not being obedient, so she would not be able to hear God if he yelled in her face.

You've said you have read the Bible many times cover to cover. I find that I learn new things every time I read it. And that lessons are spiritually discerned right when I need them and not a minute before. It always amazes me.

 

[Tim]

I know you didn't say that Jason... It was more rhetorical than anything.

I also have to ask the question of who is right? There were as many religions in the world as I have questions...
So who is right? Who is wrong and why should I believe any of them? They all say they are the real deal, they all lay claim to being right.

Another thing to ponder... if you were born in India, you would be believe something different than you do now. And if you were born in China, something totally different... so how much is your belief and how much is that of your surroundings?

 

[GraceAbounds]

If you are a true believer, then that line of questioning should never enter your mind. IMHO

Can't help but enter someones mind, even though someone is a believer they are still human.

When one decides to follow Christ it does not mean that they become all perfect. It basically means they choose to struggle against sin instead of giving in to it. They choose to try to grow in Christ like behavior even though they will never even come close while on this earth.

We aren't bound by the law to be perfect anymore thank God.

And I think that GP was just trying to exhibit some logic without faith in a higher power.

 

[GraceAbounds]

In my arrogant understanding of what I think I know and how smart I think I am, this is as good as it gets.

This is so true. For me the more knowledge I gain the more I realize I don't know. Whereas the less knowledge I had the more I thought I knew. Another paradigm shift.

This one I do, though. I am a true believer and I question EVERYTHING, so all lines of questioning at one point or another enters my mind. Leads me to either a better understanding or deeper faith.

Same here.

 

[groundpounder]

I know you didn't say that Jason... It was more rhetorical than anything.

I'm hip.

I also have to ask the question of who is right? There were as many religions in the world as I have questions...
So who is right? Who is wrong and why should I believe any of them? They all say they are the real deal, they all lay claim to being right.

Another thing to ponder... if you were born in India, you would be believe something different than you do now. And if you were born in China, something totally different... so how much is your belief and how much is that of your surroundings?

This to me is the most difficult, and I use Islam as the most poignant example. What if what if what if......

In the end, faith that I'm doing the right thing (believing in God and that Jesus Christ is the Messiah) is what I have. I have to let go of the analytical, and that is very difficult. When it comes to matters of faith, my analytical mind is my greatest enemy, because that is where the spiritual battle is being waged for me.

For you, too, I think....