Society without God

[BornReady]

I am currently reading Society without God by Phil Zuckerman. Zuckerman lived in Denmark for over a year and interviewed as many people as he could. His book tells about life in a secular nation. Denmark is very secular. Yet it is not the depraved immoral society that the religious right would predict. In fact, it's just the opposite.

Anyway, Zuckerman said it wasn't easy to get Danes to agree to do an interview with him. The people over there don't talk about religion. Religion is a very personal and private matter. Not something you discuss even with your friends. A pastor told Zuckerman that Danes are embarrassed to talk about God. One interviewee said it is easier for Danes to talk about sex than religion. In the USA it's just the opposite. I mean how many times do Americans use the word penis or talk about their sexual fantasies in polite conversation? Well apparently Danes don't discuss their religious beliefs in polite conversation.

Do you think Americans should be more reserved when it comes to discussing God and religion?

 

[Panacea]

No, I don't think it should be something we're afraid to discuss. I simply wish it weren't something people took so seriously (aka the fundamentalism of US religion)...seems this is the other end of that continuum.

 

[BornReady]

If you haven't already noticed, I talk about little else other than religion on OTz. People who only know my online persona probably see me as one sided. I'm not that way irl. In fact, outside of OTz, my family and church, I don't discuss religion. Sometimes the topic comes up at lunch with my coworkers. I don't contribute to the conversation when it does. I'm not embarrassed but I am struck by how bold some of my coworkers are when it comes to their beliefs. Apparently it's quite a contrast with Denmark.

 

[Joe the meek]

I'm not embarrassed but I am struck by how bold some of my coworkers are when it comes to their beliefs.

I'm curious about what beliefs they are bold about?

Living in the Bible belt surprised, I'm generally surprised at how little people talk about God in everyday life, BUT there do seem to be some people who love to make the news for telling people how they think the Bible should be interpretted. From time to time, while out on a business lunch or dinner, someone will say grace before a meal, but no big deal as I've learned to say grace myself silent without intruding on those who may not hold the same beliefs as myself.

 

[Minor Axis]

It's obvious you don't need God to tell you what is moral. Those beliefs come from within, not dictated so I'm not surprised that a secular nation can be a success with preconceived notions of God out of the picture.

What I see in Texas is cars plastered up with Christian symbols and proclamations and it's not unusual to be told to have a "blessed day". If only people would act as "Christian" as they say they are, and more than superficial comments. Many of today's Christians seem to be far removed from what Jesus was reported to stand for- live and let live, forgiveness, patience, understanding, help those in need, forget pride, competition, and the quest for material self enrichment. If Jesus showed up in Church today incognito, talking the talk, they'd probably throw him out.

 

[BornReady]

I'm curious about what beliefs they are bold about?

All their beliefs. One guy (Bruce) told me at lunch he is praying for a mutual friend of ours (Tom) to get saved. Bruce assumes I am saved and calls me brother. I've never told him I'm a Christian and never called him brother. The weird thing is Tom is closer to being "saved" than I am. Tom is just more vocal about his doubts than me. I just responded Tom is a good guy and Bruce agreed.

From what Zuckerman said, most Danes would be in cultural shock if they came to my workplace for a few days. Don't get me wrong. The people I work with are great guys. It's just the USA and Denmark have very different cultures. I live in the bible belt now. When I lived in California people were more reserved. But even in California people weren't embarrassed to talk about religion.

From time to time, while out on a business lunch or dinner, someone will say grace before a meal,

If someone said grace out loud at a restaurant in Denmark, I think people would look at him like he was making out with his girlfriend at the table. Religion is a very private matter there.

 

[BornReady]

Those beliefs come from within, not dictated so I'm not surprised that a secular nation can be a success with preconceived notions of God out of the picture.

I agree. But many people probably would be surprised. The notion of a godless and moral society runs counter to the stereotype the religious right have tried to construct.

What I see in Texas is cars plastered up with Christian symbols and proclamations and it's not unusual to be told to have a "blessed day".

Zuckerman hasn't mentioned bumper stickers so far (I'm not finished with the book yet). But he did say Danes are very interested in and vocal about politics. So I'm guessing there are a lot of political bumper stickers in Denmark but very few, if any, religious ones. And probably no abortion posters or bumper stickers. Abortion is legal and it's illegal for a doctor not to facilitate one for a woman who requests one. Yet abortion rates in Denmark are lower than in the USA. Presumably because they don't have a religious right making birth control difficult for women.

 

[Joe the meek]

All their beliefs. One guy (Bruce) told me at lunch he is praying for a mutual friend of ours (Tom) to get saved. Bruce assumes I am saved and calls me brother. I've never told him I'm a Christian and never called him brother. The weird thing is Tom is closer to being "saved" than I am. Tom is just more vocal about his doubts than me. I just responded Tom is a good guy and Bruce agreed.

From what Zuckerman said, most Danes would be in cultural shock if they came to my workplace for a few days. Don't get me wrong. The people I work with are great guys. It's just the USA and Denmark have very different cultures. I live in the bible belt now. When I lived in California people were more reserved. But even in California people weren't embarrassed to talk about religion.

Your life sounds a little like mine on the subject.

I'm lucky however that since being in NC for the last 10 years my workplace has been "religion free". If anything, most of the guys I have worked with are more along the lines of "sinners" than being saved LOL

Recently in Winston Salem a local teacher made the news for cursing out a student along with a school resource officer. The subject matter was the amount of texts the teacher and resource officer was sending a 16 year old female student. Personally, both the teacher and resource officer should be terminated in my book due to the story I read (who knows what the actual truth was I know). However, what I found funny was that the teacher made an apology in the paper and commented that he was a good Christian guy and his temper got the best of him. I found it kind of sad that a man would use the excuse of telling people that he was a "good Christian" for his bad behavior.

http://www2.journalnow.com/news/201...his-time-the-school-bullies-were-a-ar-1886702

As far as bumper stickers and Christian symbols, from personal experience dealing with people in my own work environment, I can assure you, if you have any contractor that shows up and hands you a business card with a Bible verse on it or a Christian symbol on their van, there is a good chance you want to run because they will try to fleece you any chance they get.

 

[BornReady]

I can assure you, if you have any contractor that shows up and hands you a business card with a Bible verse on it or a Christian symbol on their van, there is a good chance you want to run because they will try to fleece you any chance they get.

That's another good example of the cultural difference. In Denmark it would be inappropriate to give someone a business card with a bible verse on it. If you did then the person receiving it would be uncomfortable. It's not that they think religion is bad or dirty. It's just a private matter for them. It would be like handing someone a business card with a sketch of your favorite sex position on it.

Compared to Denmark, the USA is saturated in religion and we're barely aware of it. When Zuckerman got back from Denmark he went to a bank. While standing in line he overheard a loan officer advising someone with a debt problem. His advice was to write down all her debts on a piece of paper and take the paper to his pastor. His pastor would pray over the list. And all her debts would be completely gone after one year if she donated $50 a month to his pastor's ministry. He said he had seen this work over and over again. I believe he meant well but this was inappropriate advice. But what really surprised Zuckerman is no one else in line seemed at all bothered by what he was saying. That's when it really registered that he wasn't in Denmark anymore.

 

[darkcgi]

Society without me!

 

[darkcgi]

Where I live Mississippi If you do not have a Christian appearance with your business you maybe not get business at all

 

[BornReady]

Where I live Mississippi If you do not have a Christian appearance with your business you maybe not get business at all

I'm not surprised. In Missouri you don't have to advertise your Christianity but it helps.

Do you think people should advertise their Christianity like the US, keep it private like Denmark, or be somewhere in between?

 

[darkcgi]

I really think its anyones choice they should be allowed to choose I do feel more confortable choosing some one that displays christianity only for the fact of how many times ive had good service from them than not but know it doesnt assure good service if I could I would like to put economy back in to people that stand for goodness rather than chaos but I can never bed sure unless I personally know the people where that comes into play where I live is that many communities are working to keep out monopolies and keep the locally owned businesses
We call them mom and pop joints
For instance if I got get a burger I can pay a dollar more than mcdonald s and get a home cooked burger fries and brewed sweet tea much better than mcdonalds cleaner and help a local family
I know everything cannot work this way but it should bed ideas to everyone if they want a more peaceful society

 

[BornReady]

For instance if I got get a burger I can pay a dollar more than mcdonald s and get a home cooked burger fries and brewed sweet tea much better than mcdonalds cleaner and help a local family

Yeah, I'm the same way. I don't like Walmart either but confess I do shop there.

I know everything cannot work this way but it should bed ideas to everyone if they want a more peaceful society

But more religion does not necessarily mean more peace. According to Zuckerman, Denmark ranks 3rd in the Global Peace Index (www.visionofhumanity.org). This index ranked 121 nations according to the degree of peace and security in each country. The index takes into account such factors as homicide rates, levels of violent crime, levels of disrespect for human rights, likelihood of violent demonstrations, political instability, levels of distrust among citizens, etc. The USA at rank 96th fared much worse than Denmark.

 

[Joe the meek]

Where I live Mississippi If you do not have a Christian appearance with your business you maybe not get business at all

From what I have experienced first hand, those who spout off their Christianity for marketing their company would be better off attending business classes on how to handle their money.

 

[dkwrtw]

I don't think any topic should be out of bounds for discussion.

 

[Minor Axis]

I agree. But many people probably would be surprised. The notion of a godless and moral society runs counter to the stereotype the religious right have tried to construct.

As far as they are concerned, we are too stupid to have our own moral code. That would have to be passed down from the all knowing deity.

Zuckerman hasn't mentioned bumper stickers so far (I'm not finished with the book yet). But he did say Danes are very interested in and vocal about politics. So I'm guessing there are a lot of political bumper stickers in Denmark but very few, if any, religious ones. And probably no abortion posters or bumper stickers. Abortion is legal and it's illegal for a doctor not to facilitate one for a woman who requests one. Yet abortion rates in Denmark are lower than in the USA. Presumably because they don't have a religious right making birth control difficult for women.

I don't like women using abortion as birth control. I'm not ready to set up laws prohibiting it, but I hope that people would become responsible enough to control their lives and not allow their whims/desires to control them. The real problem with the religious right is their insistance you have a right to be born, but after you are born, if you don't conform to their standards, to hell with ya.

 

[BornReady]

I don't like women using abortion as birth control.

Why would women do that? I was referring to things like sex education, the availability of condoms to teenagers, the affordability of birth control pills, and unhindered access to the morning after pill.

 

[BornReady]

I don't think any topic should be out of bounds for discussion.

I think most societies have things that are considered inappropriate to discuss or are of a private nature. I did farm work as a teenager with some temporary immigrants from Mexico. One of them asked me if I had a girlfriend. I said no. Then he asked how many times I masturbate each week. There's nothing really wrong with the question but it wasn't something I was used to being asked. lol

I'm not saying religion should be considered an inappropriate topic. As evidenced by this thread, I discuss religion a lot. I just find the cultural difference between Denmark and the USA interesting.

 

[Panacea]

I definitely would agree it's a topic that can light people up in this country, and if you value peace at all, it's best leaving it alone. I suppose my initial input is a bit too optimistic and doesn't take into account how rigid people can be.