Satan. Created by God perfect and good or evil?

[Greatest I am]

Satan. Created by God perfect and good or evil?

God created sin, evil and iniquity along with all things.

Ephesians 3:8-10
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Ezekiel 28:15 (King James Version)
15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
-------------------------
There seems to be something wrong with the logic of these verses.
Was God surprised to find what He had created?
We are told that perfection begets perfection in a never ending line in Math 7 18, yet imperfection in the form of iniquity surfaced in Satan. It must have been put there by God Himself if Eph 3 8 is to be believed.
God is said to have somehow found it but as the creator of all things, He must have created it and placed it within Satan. Presumably to surface and have God find it. It could not have been lost to God so why the Bible uses the word found is perplexing.
We have to believe then that Satan was created exactly as he was meant to be. Perfect as God is only capable of, yet, having evil, sin and iniquity as part of his perfection.
If so, it seems strange that God is later said in scripture to cast Satan into hell.
Matthew 25:41 (Jesus speaking)epart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
If God gave Satan his nature and Satan followed His God given nature, as he must, then why would God curse His perfect creation seeing as how perfection cannot change to imperfection?
If it can and God is also perfect then that would mean that God could also turn to imperfection.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHj0dtSwxqQ

For either God or Satan.

Can you shed some light on this issue?

You should know that I do not have much of a problem with the above because I think more as the Hebrews and Jews think. That being that Satan was never evil and was more of God’s Loyal opposition and that Genesis was not the fall of man but man’s ascension to having a moral sense that comes with the knowledge of good and evil.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_sat2.htm

Regards
DL

 

[pjbleek]

thought Genesis was a rock band?

 

[darkangel]

and how many forums did you post this in?

 

[TheTinGirl]

Three so far.

 

[darkangel]

Three so far.

I would think he may be up to 5 by now..:24:

 

[retro]

I think that C.S. Lewis put it best...

Christians, then, believe that an evil power has made himself for the present the Prince of this World. And, of course, that raises problems. Is this state of affairs in accordance with God's will, or not? If it is, He is a strange God, you will say: and if it is not, how can anything happen contrary to the will of a being with absolute power?

But anyone who has been in authority knows how a thing can be in accordance with your will in one way and not in another. It may be quite sensible for a mother to say to the children, "I'm not going to go and make you tidy the schoolroom every night. You've got to learn to keep it tidy on your own." Then she goes up one night and finds the Teddy bear and the ink and the French Grammar all lying in the grate. That is against her will. She would prefer the children to be tidy. But on the other hand, it is her will which has left the children free to be untidy. The same thing arises in any regiment, or trade union, or school. You make a thing voluntary and then half the people do not do it. That is not what you wiled, but your will has made it possible.

It is probably the same in the universe. God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go either wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong; I cannot. If a thing is free to be good it is also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, through it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata --- of creatures that worked like machines --- would hardly be worth creating. The happiness which God designs for His higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to Him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with which the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk an d water. And for that they must be free.

If you continue this further, you'll find that your claim is fundamentally false. Satan was God's creation, and was created with free will. Satan is not equal to God, therefore you cannot compare his fall and apply it to God. In addition, God cannot turn to evil because evil is defined (in this realm of discussion) as going against God's will, and it's fundamentally impossible for a being to act contrary to their own will.

In short, I think you just got owned by a man that's been dead for almost 47 years.

 

[PoopaSwoof]

Would you quit putting Satan in your thread titles.
I have to re-read the title and reassure myself that you're not talking about my daughter.

 

[Greatest I am]

I think that C.S. Lewis put it best...



If you continue this further, you'll find that your claim is fundamentally false. Satan was God's creation, and was created with free will. Satan is not equal to God, therefore you cannot compare his fall and apply it to God. In addition, God cannot turn to evil because evil is defined (in this realm of discussion) as going against God's will, and it's fundamentally impossible for a being to act contrary to their own will.

In short, I think you just got owned by a man that's been dead for almost 47 years.

Eh, which claim is false.

That God's works are ever continuing perfection?

As to your very definitive statement of God being a creator, how do you know this is a fact other than from hear say and Bible say. All hear say?

Are you willing to gamble your soul on hear say alone or have you something more trustworthy?

Regards
DL

 

[Minor Axis]

I think that C.S. Lewis put it best...

If you continue this further, you'll find that your claim is fundamentally false. Satan was God's creation, and was created with free will. Satan is not equal to God, therefore you cannot compare his fall and apply it to God. In addition, God cannot turn to evil because evil is defined (in this realm of discussion) as going against God's will, and it's fundamentally impossible for a being to act contrary to their own will.

In short, I think you just got owned by a man that's been dead for almost 47 years.

Following your train of thought, why would God have created Satan and given him free will?

I disagree on the definition of "evil". It is up to the individual to establish a standard for evil. And the dominate opinion in essence defines evil as far as society goes but still does not define it for the individual. Why should we give God a free pass on deciding what is good or evil? If you believe in the traditional view of God (which I question), I would counter that because God has the power to create us, does not mean, everything he decides is correct. It just means he has power over us, the ability to destroy us, but ultimately might does not make right.

 

[anathelia]

Following your train of thought, why would God have created Satan and given him free will?

I disagree on the definition of "evil". It is up to the individual to establish a standard for evil. And the dominate opinion in essence defines evil as far as society goes but still does not define it for the individual. Why should we give God a free pass on deciding what is good or evil? If you believe in the traditional view of God (which I question), I would counter that because God has the power to create us, does not mean, everything he decides is correct. It just means he has power over us, the ability to destroy us, but ultimately might does not make right.

If the creator doesn't decide what's right and what's wrong, then who does?


And secondly, God created everything and everyone with free will. Why would he choose one angel out of all the rest and single him out as not being allowed to have free will because he might one day become evil?


Without evil, there really is no good. In my opinion, anyways.

 

[Codrus]

Would you quit putting Satan in your thread titles.
I have to re-read the title and reassure myself that you're not talking about my daughter.

but she is evil...

 

[Peter Parka]

Satan, though while still being a mythalogical creature, is still way cooler than god, how many songs about god were this cool?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkl5qIi30yw

 

[retro]

Eh, which claim is false.

That God's works are ever continuing perfection?

As to your very definitive statement of God being a creator, how do you know this is a fact other than from hear say and Bible say. All hear say?

Are you willing to gamble your soul on hear say alone or have you something more trustworthy?

Regards
DL

The entire premise of your thread was fundamentally flawed. I'm also responding to this thread under the belief that what is said in the Bible is true, as that's how you originally posted this thread. You're trying to put holes in the Christian belief system, so I responded withing that realm. You can't go and change the thematic elements of the thread because it suits your argument.

 

[Minor Axis]

If the creator doesn't decide what's right and what's wrong, then who does?

You do. While you can consider the creator's version of what is "right" you are not locked into having to agree just because he/she says so because you have free will and a mind of your own. I don't believe the concept of "whatever you believe I believe just because you created me and can destroy me" gives credit to the human intelligence and the ability to independently evaluate a moral code. And just because an entity can create you does not mean it has cornered the market on morality.

Besides, you can't be told a moral code, you must believe it based on what you think, not because it is a standard shoved down your throat, if you see what I'm saying. A morality can be mindlessly adhered to, but that really means nothing as in, I'm "being good" because if I'm bad I'll be punished. And in this example, would that mean you are moral, or just a good rule follower? More important would be "being good" because it is the right thing to do. If there was a supreme being, for it to mean anything, morality must be arrived at because the individual believes it is a standard that should be followed on its own merits, not based on threats or there is no true morality.

And secondly, God created everything and everyone with free will. Why would he choose one angel out of all the rest and single him out as not being allowed to have free will because he might one day become evil?

Without evil, there really is no good. In my opinion, anyways.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the church paints Satan as God's mortal enemy. My point was why would God create Satan, for what purpose- Are they in on it together testing us or toying with us? If Satan is acting against God's will, God could stop it at any time, so why doesn't he? Maybe Satan is not so bad as the Church would like you to think.

BTW, this is just a philosophical discussion for me. I don't believe in Satan as an external evil entity. I consider it an internal component of the human psyche, to be good or to be bad. The temptations are always there. It's up to us to decide how to respond to them.

 

[retro]

If Satan is acting against God's will, God could stop it at any time, so why doesn't he?

That goes back to free will.

 

[anathelia]

You do. While you can consider the creator's version of what is "right" you are not locked into having to agree just because he/she says so because you have free will and a mind of your own. I don't believe the concept of "whatever you believe I believe just because you can destroy me" gives credit to the human intelligence and the ability to independently establish a moral code. You can't be told a moral code, you must believe it based on what you think, not because of what is shoved down your throat, if you see what I'm saying.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but the church paints Satan as God's mortal enemy. My point was why would God create Satan, for what purpose- Are they in on it together testing us or toying with us? If Satan is acting against God's will, God could stop it at any time, so why doesn't he? Maybe Satan is not so bad as the Church would like you to think.

BTW, this is just a philosophical discussion for me. I don't believe in Satan as an external evil entity. I consider it an internal component of the human psyche, to be good or to be bad. The temptations are always there. It's up to us to decide how to respond to them.

Satan wasn't always evil, you know. The story is that he's a fallen angel. Free will.

 

[Minor Axis]

Satan wasn't always evil, you know. The story is that he's a fallen angel. Free will.

But if he exists, it is because God allows him to exist. For what purpose?

 

[Peter Parka]

I've brought this up before but if satan runs hell and is punishing bad people by burning them there, dosen't that mean he is working with god and is good? If not, if god is all powerful, why dose he allow satan to do that?

 

[Minor Axis]

I've brought this up before but if satan runs hell and is punishing bad people by burning them there, dosen't that mean he is working with god and is good? If not, if god is all powerful, why dose he allow satan to do that?

If you believe the Christian concept of God and Satan, then the only conclusion can be is that they are working together which is bogus anyway because morality can't be taught by the threat of punishment. A supreme being would know that. The Hell concept is a primitive attempt by religion to control people.

 

[anathelia]

But if he exists, it is because God allows him to exist. For what purpose?

Do you believe everyone in the world deserves to go to heaven?