Revelations

[drb]

debates are freeing and open people up to new ideas. don't take offence because i'm sure none is intended.

 

[All Else Failed]

I am not getting involved in this kind of debate anymore. I am scared. People start saying my religion turns people off. waaaa.. I might be upfront about it but *cry I am not out there to hurt anyone.

We know this...

 

[dt3]

As long as its healthy, and not crossing the line.

Very true!

 

[raubin]

They were all on acid everyone from the church are acid freaks!

 

[icecuban]

Thats even debatable. It condones sexism, slavery and racism sooooo....

bible (old testement), maybe.....god was fine with war and floods and all that stuff till "jesus" (christianity, or whatever they want to call it). as for jesus and slavery, i dont think so....theres a lot of quotes, mostly from pauls letters and Ephesians, and such, but not jesus. and the when he does mention "servants" it IS interpretation (being "punished", however you want to take that). but if it is up for interpretation, then I would interperate in the best possible way, one that fits in with the rest of the scheme, one that is congruous with the rest of his messages. some say, well, why did he not speak out against it with such a forum, but i feel it was covered, like many other things that were not actually named, through general teachings that can bind many wrongs under the same umbrella.
sexism...well, woman seemed to love him more then the men, and it was woman who he appeared to first after he left the body, and he saved a whore
racism, well, loving your neighbor was not designed toward only one race of neighbors, if interpereted that way, again, it would be non-congruous with the whole design

 

[icecuban]

i do have some problems with revelations, and i try to resolve it. only because i am not one for the idea of hell. what a foolish idea i think that is. god, to create something only to send it away forever, no way. i think its mans way of getting even with people who they do not like and think they wont get what they should get here on earth. To me, hell is guilt over what we do wrong. if a person is made to feel guilt, then they truely feel pain, much more then physical. and when i think that, i think this feeling of guilt is not eternal, but the first step towards knowing what is right.

 

[All Else Failed]

bible (old testement), maybe.....god was fine with war and floods and all that stuff till "jesus" (christianity, or whatever they want to call it). as for jesus and slavery, i dont think so....theres a lot of quotes, mostly from pauls letters and Ephesians, and such, but not jesus. and the when he does mention "servants" it IS interpretation (being "punished", however you want to take that). but if it is up for interpretation, then I would interperate in the best possible way, one that fits in with the rest of the scheme, one that is congruous with the rest of his messages. some say, well, why did he not speak out against it with such a forum, but i feel it was covered, like many other things that were not actually named, through general teachings that can bind many wrongs under the same umbrella.
sexism...well, woman seemed to love him more then the men, and it was woman who he appeared to first after he left the body, and he saved a whore
racism, well, loving your neighbor was not designed toward only one race of neighbors, if interpereted that way, again, it would be non-congruous with the whole design

You cant just disregard the Old testament like that, this is called cherry picking. You believe what best suites you.



This website will help you locate everything I said: Skeptic's Annotated Bible / Quran / Book of Mormon
Just click one of the categories and it will bring you to the exact part in the bible where it says it. When you click one of the categories on the right such as intolerance, the page it will bring you too has it for both the new and old testament on the left, along with the Koran and the book of Mormon.

 

[IntruderLS1]

You cant just disregard the Old testament like that, this is called cherry picking.

Not to be a nag, but this isn't true.

 

[All Else Failed]

Not to be a nag, but this isn't true.

No, every Christian does it. They'll take the good stuff in the old testaments, sure. But when it gets to the part where you have to stone people to death for working on the sabbath, they obviously wont do that, and thats pretty much going against the "Perfect word" of their god, which is nothing but blasphemy. Most Christians aren't real Christians.

 

[icecuban]

no, come on, please, i am no fool, ofcourse you cant disregard, jesus was a jew, all he did was reference the old testement, and say what they had misinterpereted, but it truely was a fresh way of going at it when jesus came, hence New. jesus hardly spoke of the sabbath, he even worked on it. but he had to pull the only lifestock out of the mud that day, and no stones were thrown. speaking of stones, none could be thrown after him without hypocracy, since the one who has not sinned can cast first stone, which is nobody

 

[icecuban]

and he thought the stone idea was dumb, since even he, the "sinless" (as they say) didnt even want to throw stones

 

[All Else Failed]

no, come on, please, i am no fool, ofcourse you cant disregard, jesus was a jew, all he did was reference the old testement, and say what they had misinterpereted, but it truely was a fresh way of going at it when jesus came, hence New. jesus hardly spoke of the sabbath, he even worked on it. but he had to pull the only lifestock out of the mud that day, and no stones were thrown. speaking of stones, none could be thrown after him without hypocracy, since the one who has not sinned can cast first stone, which is nobody

I didn't say that Christians disregard that jesus was a jew...I said that Christians love to take all the good parts of the bible and leave the "bad ones" out, even though they are a part of their religion.

5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Jesus is pretty much saying there, that he didn't come to change anything, but to carry out the old laws.





But the NT is full of violence and bad stuff too that was said by jesus himself.


10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.


and


13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


and


15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.


and

21:15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.

21:16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.

21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.




Man, this Jesus guys is pretty twisted! But hey, why don't Christians do this? I mean, they accept his word more over than the OT right? Why do you reject the words of your savior?

 

[icecuban]

I didn't say that Christians disregard that jesus was a jew...I said that Christians love to take all the good parts of the bible and leave the "bad ones" out, even though they are a part of their religion.

5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Jesus is pretty much saying there, that he didn't come to change anything, but to carry out the old laws.





But the NT is full of violence and bad stuff too that was said by jesus himself.


10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.


and


13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


and


15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.


and

21:15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.

21:16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.

21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.




Man, this Jesus guys is pretty twisted! But hey, why don't Christians do this? I mean, they accept his word more over than the OT right? Why do you reject the words of your savior?

im starting to think its not christians who pick and choose. you have to look at the context of the sayings. when i started changing, and having to get rid of the evil within me, believe me, it was like fire within, and i was certainly gnashing my teeth. u must see that not the person, the real heart within is ever cast off, its the duel person we all carry, the one that sux, and not the one that knows what is right, im sure u and i both know what is right and wrong when it is all boiled down.
as for the fullfilling of the law, that is what i said by jesus trying to tell them what they had been misinterpereting. like audultery and such, not with the flesh alone, but with the mind. and when it comes to death, i like to think i have cast my wrong self into the hell fire forever, leaving the true me behind.
i dont feel i pick and choose, i just choose to interperet in accordance to the teachings. i feel the bible is meant for the purest of hearts, waiting for the right reader to put all the pieces together and open it up, like a door that can only take a certain key, any other key is only going to make things harder to get through. with a mind like yours All Else, im supprised you are not as close to unlocking its evolutionary magic as the rest of them. but it is not mind alone, but heart.
and he was a sword, he has set a divide a man within himself, so we can differentiate between what seems as gray area. someday, i hope, someone will read all this stuff and be the mender of hearts
violence was not jesus' aim, to claim that would be more ignorant then i take u for, im sure thats not what u meant.
as for your quotes, whats your interpretation, i can see what u may think, but if it was to be in accordance with true peace and love, how would u "choose" to interperet if you could

 

[icecuban]

and Else, your one of the best debaters ive seen in here, or most anywhere else for that matter, and as much as i do disagree with you, i cant help but love your fervor. its one thing to spout at the mouth, but to have your heart behind it and your convictions is grand, which makes u grand, this is quite a pleasure

 

[IntruderLS1]

5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Jesus is pretty much saying there, that he didn't come to change anything, but to carry out the old laws.

You have no idea what you're talking about. FYI. :shrug:

 

[All Else Failed]

You have no idea what you're talking about. FYI. :shrug:

Ok then, what do you think it means?

 

[Magic P]

End all the threads and stop abusing or persuading or proving to each other until we actually know the truth. To this day, the truth won't be confirmed till we die. So yeah, lets have faith in whatever it is, for me it's for Jesus and I will go to heaven cuz I believe that is the truth.

 

[All Else Failed]

"The market place of ideas will not close just because you do not have enough money."

 

[IntruderLS1]

Ok then, what do you think it means?

Man chose separation from God with the forbidden fruit. When man chose that separation, there was no way for us to enter the kingdom. The only other place we could go was the place created for Lucifer and his angels. God didn't create Hell for man. God doesn't want to send man to Hell. Hell is a place of punishment for the devil, and many feel that the term hell is a description of separation from the Lord.

The law was given to man as a temporary bridge. It was designed to teach us how to live our lives according to God's standards. The first couple teach us to live spiritually, while the rest teach us to get along well with others.

God gave us the law in order to teach us how to live our lives, but also to show us that we need a greater being than ourselves, as no man is perfect. The law required a blood offering in order to wash away our sins.

Jesus offered Himself as a blood sacrifice for us all. Jews and Gentiles alike. By becoming that sacrifice, the law has been fulfilled, and no longer holds us hostage. We can accept the gift we were given, and now have a direct line of communication with the Lord.

When a debt has been fulfilled, it does not mean that we must continue to pay. It means the transaction has been completed. Jesus purchased us all at the cost of His own life, but we have the choice to accept Him, or walk our own line.

The Bible tells us that we have two choices in life. Life, or Death. The Bible urges us to choose life. Choose life, and don't go down that other road. It is advice given out of love. ... In the end though, the choice has been left up to each of us individually.

 

[dt3]

But if God sent Jesus because he wanted us to be able to get into heaven (and hell wasn't meant for man), then why would he still damn people to hell?