Republican Judgement

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Johnfromokc

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They were already taxed once on the salary before investing it...why should the capital gains be taxed again at the same rate?

Not true in the case of CEO's and owners who take their compensation in capital gains. Even for investors, the capital gains tax is only on the gains on the initial investment. The inital investment is not taxed again - only the gains, hence a capital gains tax.

You do understand the purpose of investing right John?

I've been investing since 1988. I've got a fair idea. ;)
 
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Tim

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They were already taxed once on the salary before investing it...why should the capital gains be taxed again at the same rate?

This is the biggest bullshit lie that has been passed down from your corporate masters ever. I can't believe there are still idiots that keep it going and try to pass it on as a valid argument.

Let me ask you a question...
If you take $1000 of your paycheck (that was taxed already) and bought 100 Christmas trees to sell for the holiday. Would you only need to pay 15% capital gains tax on the $5000 you make by selling the trees? Or would you be expected to pay the full rate that you currently pay???
 

Accountable

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This is the biggest bullshit lie that has been passed down from your corporate masters ever. I can't believe there are still idiots that keep it going and try to pass it on as a valid argument.

Let me ask you a question...
If you take $1000 of your paycheck (that was taxed already) and bought 100 Christmas trees to sell for the holiday. Would you only need to pay 15% capital gains tax on the $5000 you make by selling the trees? Or would you be expected to pay the full rate that you currently pay???
Is it back up to 15%? I remember when I first started investing that I felt funny paying only 10 for capital gains. I don't see why they aren't just lumped into gross income.
 

Tim

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Is it back up to 15%? I remember when I first started investing that I felt funny paying only 10 for capital gains. I don't see why they aren't just lumped into gross income.

Exactly. Any gross income should be taxed as such. It doesn't matter if your new income is gained from money you invested and made money on.

It's the same thing as paying sales tax on a used car. Even though a brand new car is subject to sales tax, any new owner needs to pay tax on it again since it's new to him.
 

Stone

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They were already taxed once on the salary before investing it...why should the capital gains be taxed again at the same rate?
...............................

Don't confuse dividend income with capital gains.
Capital gains is 'new' profit derived from increased valuation of the stock sold. There isn't any double taxation associated with it.
 

The Man

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Don't confuse dividend income with capital gains.
Capital gains is 'new' profit derived from increased valuation of the stock sold. There isn't any double taxation associated with it.

I follow ??
What I am saying is the original wage etc that made the purchase in lets say real estate ...the wage was taxed accordingly.
An individual invests what is left in lets say real estate...makes a sale ..IMO he shouldnt pay the same tax as salary tax on his gain.
It should be at a much lower rate.....while the wage is guaranteed, the investment is a gamble.
Additionally with a higher tax...one would be forced to either buy cheaper..or make the sale higher to have the same gain.
This would slow transactions and do further damage to the economy.
 
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The Man

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This is the biggest bullshit lie that has been passed down from your corporate masters ever. I can't believe there are still idiots that keep it going and try to pass it on as a valid argument.

Let me ask you a question...
If you take $1000 of your paycheck (that was taxed already) and bought 100 Christmas trees to sell for the holiday. Would you only need to pay 15% capital gains tax on the $5000 you make by selling the trees? Or would you be expected to pay the full rate that you currently pay???

You have just described a business environment tim.
 

The Man

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This is the biggest bullshit lie that has been passed down from your corporate masters ever. I can't believe there are still idiots that keep it going and try to pass it on as a valid argument.

Let me ask you a question...
If you take $1000 of your paycheck (that was taxed already) and bought 100 Christmas trees to sell for the holiday. Would you only need to pay 15% capital gains tax on the $5000 you make by selling the trees? Or would you be expected to pay the full rate that you currently pay???

Let me go a step further with that,
Lets tax that 5 grand 30 percent
Thats 1500 bucks
Now about 8 percent sales tax by the customer
Another 400 bucks
Thats 1900 bucks out of five grand the govt would make...for doing absolutely nothing.
They also make money on the gas to go get it and take it home from the customer.
Wear and tear on the car...which is more money going towards a car sale later.
How much should the govt make?
They spent 6.1 trillion last year Fed state and local combined.
How much is enough?
How much is enough {amount spent per citizen}...which has gone up close to three fold since the 60s {after adjusted for inflation}
Why?
The poor are still poor ...what has been gained?
 

Stone

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I follow,
What I am saying is the original wage etc that made the purchase in lets say real estate ...the wage was taxed accordingly.
An individual invests what is left in lets say real estate...makes a sale ..IMO he shouldnt pay the same tax as salary tax on his gain.
It should be at a much lower rate.....while the wage is guaranteed, the investment is a gamble.
Additionally with a higher tax...one would be forced to either buy cheaper..or make the sale higher to have the same gain.
This would slow transactions and do further damage to the economy.

An individual invests what is left in lets say real estate...makes a sale ..IMO he shouldnt pay the same tax as salary tax on his gain.
Not clear.
Do you mean capital gains tax shouldn't be as high as income tax?
Even under Clinton, long term capital gains was 20%.
This is lower than the income tax rates of most people that invest in stocks and property.
Short term was 40%.....

It should be at a much lower rate.....while the wage is guaranteed, the investment is a gamble.
Lost me.

Additionally with a higher tax...one would be forced to either buy cheaper..or make the sale higher to have the same gain.
Gains have never been a guaranteed/fixed concept.
And market sales reflect perceived value, not what the seller perceives as acceptable capital gain.


This would slow transactions and do further damage to the economy.
The economy isn't hinging on slow trade transactions nor capital gains rates.......it is hinging on consumer participation, employment and business profitability......none of which factor capital gains (edit: tax) to any great degree.
 
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The Man

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Not clear.
Do you mean capital gains tax shouldn't be as high as income tax?
Even under Clinton, long term capital gains was 20%.
This is lower than the income tax rates of most people that invest in stocks and property.
Short term was 40%.....


Lost me.


Gains have never been a guaranteed/fixed concept.
And market sales reflect perceived value, not what the seller perceives as acceptable capital gain.



The economy isn't hinging on slow trade transactions nor capital gains rates.......it is hinging on consumer participation, employment and business profitability......none of which factor capital gains (edit: tax) to any great degree.

Do you mean capital gains tax shouldn't be as high as income tax?
Correct.


A wage or salary comes every month or week its not a gamble.
Investments are gambles and are not guaranteed ...these are not guaranteed incomes.
Gains have never been a guaranteed/fixed concept.
And market sales reflect perceived value, not what the seller perceives as acceptable capital gain.

Thus the gamble.
The economy isn't hinging on slow trade transactions nor capital gains rates.......it is hinging on consumer participation, employment and business profitability......none of which factor capital gains (edit: tax) to any great degree.

The economy doesnt hinge on one single factor but the balance of all transactions.
If gains are enough to be a concern of tax loss by lower rates,the transactions themselves have an influence on the economy.
un ruley tax gains is to slow the incentive to invest.
This slows investments in companies,real estate,research and exploration as well as gamble investments on technology.
America has been slowing as the world leader...its not from lack of knowledge ...its the structure itself which hampers proper growth..
 

Minor Axis

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The New GOP Kinder Gentler Machine Gun Hand While they Eat their "Own"

Well, Romney was never really their own, however the comments made this weekend by Lindsay Graham were quite amazing. All the new, we love the 47% is astounding from a recent history prospective. And it appears it's all Romney's fault: "Romney dug our hole deeper." Really? A great example of scapegoat tactics. If you consider Romney's background, backing programs like RomneyCare in Mass, in this election, Romney was bending over backwards to accommodate the views of his party leadership. And since they really did not like him, he has been thrown to the wolves. This does seem to be way in politics by both parties.

I sit in front of my TV wondering if this in any way could be new genuine feelings on the part of the GOP or just crass political hijinks attempting to gain favor with the electorate?
 

Stone

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Correct.



A wage or salary comes every month or week its not a gamble.
Investments are gambles and are not guaranteed ...these are not guaranteed incomes.


Thus the gamble.


The economy doesnt hinge on one single factor but the balance of all transactions.
If gains are enough to be a concern of tax loss by lower rates,the transactions themselves have an influence on the economy.
un ruley tax gains is to slow the incentive to invest.
This slows investments in companies,real estate,research and exploration as well as gamble investments on technology.
America has been slowing as the world leader...its not from lack of knowledge ...its the structure itself which hampers proper growth..


A wage or salary comes every month or week its not a gamble.
Investments are gambles and are not guaranteed ...these are not guaranteed incomes.
But that's not relevant to the discussion.

The economy doesnt hinge on one single factor but the balance of all transactions.
The dynamic of all influences would be better said.

If gains are enough to be a concern of tax loss by lower rates,the transactions themselves have an influence on the economy.
Lost me.......the context was "consumer participation, employment and business profitability ", "capital gains tax " and the "balance of all transactions "
Gains of what, tax loss from what?

un ruley tax gains is to slow the incentive to invest.
No....an increase in capital gains tax slows the incentive to buy and sell to capture a capital gain.

Reducing capital gains tax is not done with a focus to initiate investment with freshly earned income, it's mostly done to expand personal financial value by leveraging existing capital investments.
The current market is experiencing volatility from several aspects.
And it's easy to see how anything that influences massive trading to capture low taxed capital gains adds to the volatility.

Going back to previous CG tax rates doesn't have the same negative impact that increasing corporate, dividend/interest and earned income taxes does.
I don't like taxes.....but in funding an infrastructure, tax impact is relative and your argument not as significant as you've projected.

This congressional research is worth reading:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R40411.pdf

There are many opposing papers out there, but they seem to commonly ignore that volatility aids wealth generation at the expense of the middle class investor.
Why.....because, as a generality, core investors are the participants that control and drive volatility for/to their own advantage. They capture from strength while the small investor is left to guess about the direction of volatility.
The middle class simply hasn't seen the projected benefits as they've been largely captured by the 1% ers. That's a reality, TM....not political rhetoric.
With out the strengthening of the consumer base, investment in new business ventures becomes less relevant.......this is why the wealthy are seen as becoming richer at the expense of the middle class.....the effect is the stockpiling of wealth as venture capital is funneled towards capturing capital gains in existing ventures.

Of course.....this scenario isn't ever lasting....eventually they're called 'bubbles' and as you might remember, from the bio tech bubble in the late 90's to the housing bubble in 2007, the crashes are worse than the risk.

As any tax, capital gains tax can be too high or too low, also.
Going back to previous rates could actually decrease volatility and have a positive influence on long term investing rather than focusing on short term investing.


America has been slowing as the world leader...its not from lack of knowledge ...its the structure itself which hampers proper growth..
It can easily be argued that our entire economic structure is under stress from the ignorance generated by both right and left wing dogma going back over a half century.......it's all about the general population reacting from a lack of knowledge.
These issues aren't black and white....there are shades of gray that are more advantageous....

I'm a long term investor and I see little advantage to volatility.
If I was a short term raider, I would feel differently.
 
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Accountable

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The New GOP Kinder Gentler Machine Gun Hand While they Eat their "Own"

Well, Romney was never really their own, however the comments made this weekend by Lindsay Graham were quite amazing. All the new, we love the 47% is astounding from a recent history prospective. And it appears it's all Romney's fault: "Romney dug our hole deeper." Really? A great example of scapegoat tactics. If you consider Romney's background, backing programs like RomneyCare in Mass, in this election, Romney was bending over backwards to accommodate the views of his party leadership. And since they really did not like him, he has been thrown to the wolves. This does seem to be way in politics by both parties.
I agree 100%

I sit in front of my TV wondering if this in any way could be new genuine feelings on the part of the GOP or just crass political hijinks attempting to gain favor with the electorate?
There are no genuine anythings with either party. They say whatever/do whatever to stay in power.
 

Minor Axis

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I agree 100%
There are no genuine anythings with either party. They say whatever/do whatever to stay in power.

I'd argue this is a people problem. In other words, latching onto a new party has no guarantee anything will be different from this perspective. It is quite disheartening.
 
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