Religious People - Ignorant, Deluded Or Just Stupid

[SammyStephens]

Very simplistic viewpoint. Religion is a very widely based word. You automatically restrict yourself to the thoughts of the new christian model of religion and other similar western religions, which might I add is a relatively new model The real question is whether matter has always existed and never began (atheism) (and not the big bang theory, matter still needed to exist for the "bang" to have taken place) or was matter at one point made by something or someone (creationism). No science or belief system has proved anything close to answering that question.

I do not prescribe to any organized religion. I think when religion cultivates masses into a following it is potentially hazardous, when it is done on an individual platform it can help and be very positive to one's life. Therefore I do not bash religion itself, but will bash groups that get out of hand. And that is groups inside the religion, not the religion itself. I think many aggressive atheist overlook this and use simple group hatred just as many racist do, blaming the entire lot for the mistakes of the few. It is ignorant and irresponsible to do so. The same goes for religious people who twist their religion to do the same.

Either way, I am agnostic due to the fact that whether matter has always existed or whether it was made (call it by God or whatever it is that could have pieced this thing together this world and set it in motion) is unknowable with the information that is in front of us and not being opened minded about different theories and belief structures only pushes us from being further away, instead of closer, to getting an answer to that question.


And yeah I just copied and pasted my response from the other thread, but this fits here even nicer then it does in the other thread __________________

 

[Panic]

Therefore I do not bash religion itself, but will bash groups that get out of hand. And that is groups inside the religion, not the religion itself. I think many aggressive atheist overlook this and use simple group hatred just as many racist do, blaming the entire lot for the mistakes of the few. It is ignorant and irresponsible to do so.

Very well put. Sometimes atheists come off no different than than cult-like preachers who browbeat until you agree with them.

Since you're Catholic though, I want to ask you... what you have to do to get into heaven?

Wrong. I'm not Catholic.

 

[groundpounder]

Just a few thoughts.

It’s easier to believe in a magical super-being either just popping into existence or always existing than it is to believe that creatures changed & evolved over three & a half billion years into our current flora & fauna.

I always find these discussions amusing...

I feel like I have very little to lose by being a believer - if I'm wrong, then so what? Nothing's there. My life hasn't been a waste either because I would have aspired to follow a moral code that, if followed correctly, is all about personal responsibility, which carries with it a great deal of freedom and comfort in knowing I'm trying to do the right thing.

I personally don't find spirituality opressive - quite the contrary - it provides me with an inner peace that I consider an unfair advantage over those who wrestle with their faith (or lack thereof)

Are we perfect? No way. We fall short. All the time. But God's grace is really cool...

 

[groundpounder]

And I am a reasonably informed, realisticly resolute and relatively intelligent person. I don't think those characteristics are mutually exclusive to being spiritual and believing in a higher power.

 

[HottyToddyChick]

Here's my nongeneric, specific example of how people go overboard with religion-

I have a very very religious friend. Bless her, she is such a sweetheart. She's 26 and married. Well, legally. Her husband left her over a year ago and filed for divorce. Bible says divorce is wrong. She won't do it. They haven't spoken in over a year. She thinks this is God giving her an opportunity to witness, since he is denouncing his faith. I don't know him, but I think he's doing it to get rid of her. She just doesn't get it. It breaks my heart that's she's putting herself through this, but she's sitting back and letting God take care of it. I don't think it's supposed to work that way.

 

[Dana]

Here's my nongeneric, specific example of how people go overboard with religion-

I have a very very religious friend. Bless her, she is such a sweetheart. She's 26 and married. Well, legally. Her husband left her over a year ago and filed for divorce. Bible says divorce is wrong. She won't do it. They haven't spoken in over a year. She thinks this is God giving her an opportunity to witness, since he is denouncing his faith. I don't know him, but I think he's doing it to get rid of her. She just doesn't get it. It breaks my heart that's she's putting herself through this, but she's sitting back and letting God take care of it. I don't think it's supposed to work that way.

Wow... No it's not. Shhhheeeees weird! lol sorry. Is she going to celibate for the rest of her life or what? What happens when God doesn't take care of it? I'm sorry but the Bible is jusat a book. People need to live their lives themselves and not put their hands so deeply into faith. Jesus himself was against all the things most religions who believe in God practice today.

 

[HottyToddyChick]

Well, he's the only guy she's been with. She's not really interested in sex, at all. The joke, which we shouldn't make, is that they only had sex in the missionary position. She's really messed up and it just sucks so bad.

 

[Dumpus7]

They don't run anyones lives unless they allow it

I go to church.....They don't run my life.....Catholics I don't understand.....Whole different story.

My point is....Who really cares? You don't believe, then ignore it. I thin kboth sides make such a big deal out of it because they are both afraid they might be wrong...

I cold care less what anyone thinks about it, one side or the other. Believeing is a choice

Yeah well most people here do care, and do like to discuss it. That's why they are here, reading and posting on a forum. If you don't like it, take your on advice and don't care about what others are doing

 

[Dumpus7]

Let me remind you that Catholics are not Christians. They call themselves Christians, but their actions (as you and others have explained in this thread) are far from their words. Their beliefs are not of the Bible or of Jesus, so I do not see how they can be Christians. They are corrupt in so many ways. Not trying to say that true Christians are perfect, but any true Christian will try their best to not harm others, not steal, not torture others for their beliefs, etc.

All for now. Though I do agree with you that it is excellent today that everyone can voice their opinion without fear of retribution (well, mostly), and I have no problem for you voicing yours. :thumbup

Umm let me remind you that it's not just Catholics that do this. Corruption is in it all. All form of Christianity do things like this. I'm sure that God really wanted me to donate 10% of my money to the local church down the road so that they could fill the church with plasmas. Honestly, I'd rather donate my money to an organization I know is doing good to help the community.

 

[Dumpus7]

Yeah, because all Catholics advocate genocide and protect pedophiles. (rolls eyes)

I don't blame you for worrying. Tis a sad state of affairs. But there is goodness in the world as well as evil...and that's what keeps me sane. For every parasite that takes advantage of how religion can serve them...there are genuinely good people who use religion (whether God exists or not) as a guideline for peaceful living and faith that gives them inner strength and promotes their well being....if it works for them, I say there's no harm.

Well of course they are supposed to hold themselves up to a higher power, but cops, judges, and doctors, for example, are all supposed to protect and serve the general public too but there are criminal elements abound in law enforcement and the medical profession. Just because one is religious doesn't make him the end all and be all of some holy hierarchy.....they are prone to corruption just like anyone else. They're only supposed to worship God, but don't get it twisted, they are not God himself.

I agree. There are people out there who religion does good for and makes them better people. It's ridiculous to put all blame on Catholics though. And yes, corruption is in everything, not just religion.

 

[sharpies]

To all those people out there saying that we should just choose to ignore all things religious if that is what we want, I put to you the case of High School Science teachers in America. For some that chose to ignore the church's insistence on teaching creationism as science, they were ostracised from the very communities that they had lived in all their lives. In fact the god fearing peaceful communities started hate campaigns against the teachers including acts of terrorism such as rock throwing.

The problem is that all religions want control, they want to ensure that their followers are thinking about their teachings & that they obey their laws. It's built into the very fabric of all religions - some modern christian churches have gone a little soft on this but still if you wander too far from doctrine there will be consequences.

Allan

 

[Peter Parka]

There's a big row going on over here where a head teacher at a school in Yorkshire has resigned after protests about her doing away with seperate assembly for Muslims. Apparently in certain areas of Britain, a much less religious place than the USA, I add, it's law for schools to have a certain amount of worship. Unbelivable! In this day and age in a pretty much unreligious country and its still law to try and brainwash kids with religion!

 

[Meirionnydd]

There's a big row going on over here where a head teacher at a school in Yorkshire has resigned after protests about her doing away with seperate assembly for Muslims. Apparently in certain areas of Britain, a much less religious place than the USA, I add, it's law for schools to have a certain amount of worship. Unbelivable! In this day and age in a pretty much unreligious country and its still law to try and brainwash kids with religion!

Man I love Australia.

That stuff doesn't happen in public schools here, secular through and through (Y)

 

[flipx]

There's a big row going on over here where a head teacher at a school in Yorkshire has resigned after protests about her doing away with seperate assembly for Muslims. Apparently in certain areas of Britain, a much less religious place than the USA, I add, it's law for schools to have a certain amount of worship. Unbelivable! In this day and age in a pretty much unreligious country and its still law to try and brainwash kids with religion!

Yeah, it's something that definitely needs to be changed.

 

[valley]

I guess the question I would ask, is why non-believers can be so abashedly public about how wrong believers are about being so abashedly public about believeing...

In other words, who is either side trying to convince, me or themselves?

As one of the few openly Christian people here, I can answer that for you. We want to convince you, personally. Why? Because we think you will go to hell apart from a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Granted, there are self-righteous phony people in the world who have a superiority complex...they use religion and psuedo faith to step on other people and make themselves feel big and powerful. Christians are not supposed to be rude or arrogant. They are supposed to be loving and peaceful. If your neighbor's house is on fire, wouldnt you run in and shout "fire"? That's all Christians are doing with the gospel..its just a warning. I dont think I am any better than you are. I am human and so are you...we are both sinners in the eyes of God. But if you dont believe that your house is on fire then go in peace. Simple as that.

it's time that atheists took over

ummmm.....good luck with that!

They don't run anyones lives unless they allow it

I go to church.....They don't run my life.....

:thumbup My church (Baptist) does not run my life either

I thin kboth sides make such a big deal out of it because they are both afraid they might be wrong...

I'm not afraid I am wrong. I find that those who rant and rail against Christianity are ones who are afraid they are wrong. There should be understanding for those who want to share the gospel...there is a genuine belief on our part that your soul is in jeopardy. If we are wrong then who does it hurt? Yet there is so much anger and vitriol against Christianity in particular...ever wonder why?

The post is just trying to point out many of organized religion's short comings. Is it bashing if it is the truth?

Its bashing. He has set up a straw man argument. He presents his case and then gives you 3 choices to choose from....each choice supports his argument and is far from a fair assessment of "religious people".

 

[valley]

I put to you the case of High School Science teachers in America. For some that chose to ignore the church's insistence on teaching creationism as science, they were ostracised from the very communities that they had lived in all their lives.

I have examples of Christian teachers who have been ostracized for their faith in schools. One that comes to mind is a teacher who was asked to remove a cross she was wearing around her neck because it was offensive to some....it was a necklace, for pete's sake! Talk about a witch hunt. Paranoia goes both ways. I believe in Creationism but am not threatened by Evolution. I know what I believe and will argue my case just as strenuously as anyone else...but its not the end of my world if it doesnt get taught in the classroom.

In fact the god fearing peaceful communities started hate campaigns against the teachers including acts of terrorism such as rock throwing.

post your sources, please. I also have some modern sources of Christians being tortured and killed in other countries just because they want to worship God. Jesus told people to love your enemies....so I would argue that the communities who are throwing rocks at teachers are not in fact "God-fearing" as you say they are. If anything...you have an easier argument if you just tried to argue whether or not these people were in fact God-fearing people...instead of arguing that ALL religious people are the same based on isolated cases of violence instigated by a group of people who just claim to be God-fearing.

Once again...all you are doing here is putting up a strawman argument. And a weak one at that.

The problem is that all religions want control......

yet you claim in a previous post that you believe its time for the Atheist to "take over". hmmm....I am thinking your outrage against the controlling influence of "religious people" is a bit too hypocritical for this Christian girl to continue to take seriously!

 

[Tim]

As one of the few openly Christian people here, I can answer that for you. We want to convince you, personally. Why? Because we think you will go to hell apart from a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Granted, there are self-righteous phony people in the world who have a superiority complex...they use religion and psuedo faith to step on other people and make themselves feel big and powerful. Christians are not supposed to be rude or arrogant. They are supposed to be loving and peaceful. If your neighbor's house is on fire, wouldnt you run in and shout "fire"? That's all Christians are doing with the gospel..its just a warning. I dont think I am any better than you are. I am human and so are you...we are both sinners in the eyes of God. But if you dont believe that your house is on fire then go in peace. Simple as that.

But the neighbors house isn't on fire unless it's viewed through your religion. You believe that there is a place where your soul will suffer for eternity, but that doesn't make it so. So you panic your neighbors that their house is on fire while there are no flames. It is then your job (as the believer) to convince them that it really is on fire and they need to leave...

I'm not afraid I am wrong. I find that those who rant and rail against Christianity are ones who are afraid they are wrong. There should be understanding for those who want to share the gospel...there is a genuine belief on our part that your soul is in jeopardy. If we are wrong then who does it hurt? Yet there is so much anger and vitriol against Christianity in particular...ever wonder why?

Anger and vitriol against Christianity in particular? Have you ever tried being a Muslim?
Most of the rants I have seen is against organized religion as a whole, not targeted towards Christianity.

Its bashing. He has set up a straw man argument. He presents his case and then gives you 3 choices to choose from....each choice supports his argument and is far from a fair assessment of "religious people".

So what is fair then? Scaring people into believing that their souls will suffer for an eternity in a lake of fire for not accepting Jesus into their heart?

Let me ask you as a former Christian (baptist), have you ever sat down and really thought about what it means to suffer for ETERNITY? Can you wrap your mind around what eternity really means?
Even if you were to live for a million years and every second of every day you were brutally tortured you still would not even come close to approaching the suffering you will endure in hell. Take that and multiply the suffering by a factor of 1 billion and you still haven't even approached a blink of an eye in comparison to eternity. We could keep going, because if for every star in the sky and every pixel on the internet you would multiply that number by another billion times, you still wouldn't be close... we would have to do this for eternity... and to subject someone to unimaginable suffering every second of that time, for what? For not believing in God? Can you really believe that a God would have that much hate and vengeance that if one of his creation which he will not show himself to, does not have enough faith to believe in him would cause eternal suffering beyond imagine? Can you?
And if you answer yes, then you are only a follower of what you were told like I once was. But if you look deep inside yourself and you start to wrap your mind around the absurdity of what you were taught to believe, then you would most likely have a change of faith as I have.

 

[valley]

I have a very very religious friend. Bless her, she is such a sweetheart. She's 26 and married. Well, legally. Her husband left her over a year ago and filed for divorce. Bible says divorce is wrong. She won't do it. They haven't spoken in over a year. She thinks this is God giving her an opportunity to witness, since he is denouncing his faith. I don't know him, but I think he's doing it to get rid of her. She just doesn't get it. It breaks my heart that's she's putting herself through this, but she's sitting back and letting God take care of it. I don't think it's supposed to work that way.

It doesnt work that way, actually. If her husband chooses to divorce her then its not her fault. The Bible even says that if an unbelieving spouse leaves the marriage then to let them go and that the believer who is left behind is not at fault in the eyes of God. (1 Cor 7:15) She needs to sign those divorce papers and let him go if he wants to leave. Its too bad that she wont do it....maybe you could run that verse by her and ask her what it means to get her thinking so she can learn to let go and move on.

 

[valley]

But the neighbors house isn't on fire unless it's viewed through your religion. You believe that there is a place where your soul will suffer for eternity, but that doesn't make it so. So you panic your neighbors that their house is on fire while there are no flames.

I understand that. But since you now know my intentions...would you be able to justify jumping all over me because I was in error? (according to your beliefs?)

Most of the rants I have seen is against organized religion as a whole, not targeted towards Christianity.

And most of the rants I have seen are against Christianity in particular. This one by sharpies is just another in a long series for me. Perhaps they stand out to me more because they involve my religious beliefs.

So what is fair then? Scaring people into believing that their souls will suffer for an eternity in a lake of fire for not accepting Jesus into their heart?

I cannot force anyone to believe something against their will.

Let me ask you as a former Christian (baptist), have you ever sat down and really thought about what it means to suffer for ETERNITY? Can you wrap your mind around what eternity really means?
Even if you were to live for a million years and every second of every day you were brutally tortured you still would not even come close to approaching the suffering you will endure in hell.

Let me ask you...where do you get your ideas about what Hell will be like? How do you know that the suffering will not be an eternity of regret? For the record...I do believe there will be torment in hell. I'm not sure of the specifics but do know that there are different degrees of judgment in hell and that some people will be punished more than others. Who knows...maybe a person who lived a "good life" but failed to believe will only suffer a lingering sadness at being separated from God. Others who killed, raped..lived a life of selfishness...they will suffer more intensely. Those are my guesses.

Take that and multiply the suffering by a factor of 1 billion and you still haven't even approached a blink of an eye in comparison to eternity. We could keep going, because if for every star in the sky and every pixel on the internet you would multiply that number by another billion times, you still wouldn't be close... we would have to do this for eternity... and to subject someone to unimaginable suffering every second of that time, for what? For not believing in God?

Yes..that is why people go to hell...for not believing in God and for rejecting His Son.

Can you really believe that a God would have that much hate and vengeance that if one of his creation which he will not show himself to, does not have enough faith to believe in him would cause eternal suffering beyond imagine? Can you?

God is holy and his wrath against sin is righteous. If people deliberately and willfully turn against God then yes, He has every right to throw them into Hell.

And if you answer yes, then you are only a follower of what you were told like I once was. But if you look deep inside yourself and you start to wrap your mind around the absurdity of what you were taught to believe, then you would most likely have a change of faith as I have.

I am self-taught in what I believe. I was raised Catholic but had not been to church since my teen years. I first believed the gospel in my mid to late 20's and at the time, did not have access to a Bible-believing church because I live in a very rural area. I had a Bible though!


So maybe you dont have me pegged as you first thought you did. Not everyone has been spoon-fed what to believe in life. I actually rebelled against my Catholic faith and am not welcome in that Church anymore and they believe I am going to hell. Oh well...live and let live....

 

[dkwrtw]

"Ignorant, Deluded Or Just Stupid" I can say the same thing about many Atheist I know, many of the smartest people I know are religious.