Profit Based Health?

[Accountable]

You seem to fail to understand my point.. I am not trying to win the argument, there is no argument.. I stated clearly that your opinion will never be changed by what we say here and I stand by my statement..

Bullshit. You said the concept is beyond my understanding, then typed in some fucked up disrespectful "I am not being disrespectful but" patronization. Then you did exactly as I predicted and frog-leaped the question and alit right atop your comfortable preconceptions.

Socialized Health Care, as much as you may want to disagree, has not failed.

Drop in the quote, any quote, where I said it has failed.

There are many like you here in Canada that would love our Health Care to fail so we could become private again..

Drop in the quote, any quote, where I said anything at all disparaging of Canada's healthcare system. If you want to be intellectually honest, maybe you'll acknowledge the times I said you can have whatever healthcare system you'd like.

You keep stating your government is unique, BIG DEAL.. Every other government in the world in each country has a variance to adapt itself to it's unique population and ethic groups, religion and other cultural aspect.. Get over it man and stop trying to make the US Government what it isn't..

You're God damn right it's a BIG DEAL, just like the way your country's government is run should be a big deal to you. Assuming you're even still reading this, if you truly wish to stop being disrespectful, state my positions accurately or not at all.

 

[Francis]

Accountable will never accept that socialized health care is good for all. It's not that he is bad but the concept is beyond his understanding.. I am sorry I am not being disrespectful but there are people who cannot see, or don't want to, the benefits of certain programs.
How can you explain that

• Doctors in Canada, under Universal Health Care, all run medical clinics privately and refuse any patients they deem not suited to their clientèle.
• Blood, X-Ray and Ultrasound clinics can still be privately owned and make profit.
• Drug companies invest billions in a small country such as Canada due to R&D.
• Centralized government ( Federal ) oversees and ensures all people get equal and fair health care. Think about the rich states that could do so much more for it's people much like rich people. Centralizing it Federally makes it more fair for everyone and thats that advantage out and gives everyone the same system. The lower administration parts of health care are left to the other levels of government and private sector as long as they meet the Federal requirements.

If the system was to have broken down, it would have in the 1960 when Health Care was introduced.. Adjustments done properly have corrected issues within the system and will always need fine tuning..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada

You seem to fail to understand my point.. I am not trying to win the argument, there is no argument.. I stated clearly that your opinion will never be changed by what we say here and I stand by my statement..

Socialized Health Care, as much as you may want to disagree, has not failed. What has failed are the feeble attempts to discredit it. There are many like you here in Canada that would love our Health Care to fail so we could become private again.. It irks them that the system that had issues a few years ago, has improved dramatically, back to the positive.. Of course people always point to any negative aspect of a system..

You keep stating your government is unique, BIG DEAL.. Every other government in the world in each country has a variance to adapt itself to it's unique population and ethic groups, religion and other cultural aspect.. Get over it man and stop trying to make the US Government what it isn't..

Bullshit. You said the concept is beyond my understanding, then typed in some fucked up disrespectful "I am not being disrespectful but" patronization. Then you did exactly as I predicted and frog-leaped the question and alit right atop your comfortable preconceptions.

Drop in the quote, any quote, where I said it has failed.

Drop in the quote, any quote, where I said anything at all disparaging of Canada's healthcare system. If you want to be intellectually honest, maybe you'll acknowledge the times I said you can have whatever healthcare system you'd like.

You're God damn right it's a BIG DEAL, just like the way your country's government is run should be a big deal to you. Assuming you're even still reading this, if you truly wish to stop being disrespectful, state my positions accurately or not at all.

Again, I stand by my statement.. Quoted for verification..

I would have to quote the whole thread to link all the statements showing your disagreement to Socialized Health Care as not one in specific but all together they show your point of view very clear.

And no there is no BIG DEAL in Governments being different. If the will of the people of the any country including the US is to have Health Care, it will happen regardless of the style of Government..

The point I was making was not that, the way our country was run was no big deal, in fact that was exactly my point that every nation adjusts their Government to meet their needs, which strengthens my point..

 

[Accountable]

Socialized Health Care, as much as you may want to disagree, has not failed.

Drop in the quote, any quote, where I said it has failed.

There are many like you here in Canada that would love our Health Care to fail so we could become private again.

Drop in the quote, any quote, where I said anything at all disparaging of Canada's healthcare system. If you want to be intellectually honest, maybe you'll acknowledge the times I said you can have whatever healthcare system you'd like.

Here, let me help you, since you've got plenty of energy to insult and patronize but not enough to verify your preconceptions. Here's the search of all my posts in this thread.

http://www.offtopicz.net/search.php?searchid=1630827

I figure you won't bother to look at them, based on your previous hubris, so let me give you a brief synopsis ... an executive summary, if you will.

The first three posts were poking fun at Ed for an awkwardly worded statement. He was trying to be serious & didn't catch the joke like he usually does. I didn't post anything disparaging about Canada's health care system, nor did I make any statement that socialized health care has failed.

The next two posts were questions trying to get the conversants to consider that legislation is not always necessary. It's a standard tack I take because, as you know, I'd rather have individual liberty. I didn't post anything disparaging about Canada's health care system, nor did I make any statement that socialized health care has failed.

My next two posts were discussing the European health care system with Ed, and our miscommunications as well. I didn't post anything disparaging about Canada's health care system, nor did I make any statement that socialized health care has failed.

Next I responded to Minor Axis about insurance. I didn't post anything disparaging about Canada's health care system, nor did I make any statement that socialized health care has failed.

The next post was in response to Peter, who, like you, tends to read things in my posts that were never there. I didn't post anything disparaging about Canada's health care system, nor did I make any statement that socialized health care has failed.

Post #27 bears special attention, because Abcinthia actually responded to what I wrote, rather than trying to argue a point I never made. It gave me a chance to expound on my view. Obviously you missed this (and probably won't read it now) because it puts both of your misstatements to rest. I'll bold the interesting part:

Finally! A direct response to what I'm talking about. God bless ya!
When the gov't gets involved in commercial activities, competition is impossible. There is precious little market share left after they take what they want. Ya gotta admire the entrepreneur who's willing to take the chance. I'm really happy you're happy with the UK system. The United States is different - culturally, legally, historically. Your system cannot work here without destroying the very fabric that makes us us. I don't expect you to understand it. I'd appreciate if you'd respect it, nonetheless.

so as you would be able to see if you hadn't already started your response, I didn't post anything about Canada's health care system, nor did I make any statement that socialized health care has failed. In fact I supported her choice of health care system, as I do yours. I only ask for the same consideration in return. Nevertheless, I didn't post anything disparaging about Canada's health care system, nor did I make any statement that socialized health care has failed.

My next two posts were continuations of conversations with Ed and Minor, respectively, then a response to Tin Girl, then again with Ed. I didn't post anything disparaging about Canada's health care system, nor did I make any statement that socialized health care has failed.

Post #47 was the first mention of the Canadian system, so far as I remember. Minor Axis asked my opinion of it, to which I responded in a completely neutral "My opinion of the Canadian system is that it's Canadian. :confused " You'll note (if you're still reading) that Minor's post, which I quoted,

So what is your opinion of the Canadian health system and the people who depend on it? Is it about to implode?

was the only one with any mention of the failure of Canada's healthcare system, and it was in the form of a question, not an emphatic statement. My response was neutral because I respect that other sovereign nations have the natural right to conduct their business as they see fit, a respect that you don't reciprocate. I didn't post anything disparaging about Canada's health care system, nor did I make any statement that socialized health care has failed.

Posts #50, 52, 55, and 58 was a give & take with Guyzer in which we discussed the American gov't system, ironed out a familial misunderstanding, and agreed. I didn't post anything disparaging about Canada's health care system, nor did I make any statement that socialized health care has failed.

Post #56 is where I first responded to you, and since you apparently didn't read it before, I find it important to point out here that I was careful when stating my opinion to specify that socialized health care was "unacceptable for us in the USA." I also asked you to consider why the EU didn't have a single system & pointed out that the US system is similar - an idea that you promptly ignored since it apparently didn't fit your paradigm. I didn't post anything disparaging about Canada's health care system, nor did I make any statement that socialized health care has failed.

We close with my most recent post in which I requested that you find any evidence that I had done anything you've accused me of, but you couldn't be arsed to do so. Again and finally, I didn't post anything disparaging about Canada's health care system, nor did I make any statement that socialized health care has failed.

 

[porterjack]

i got a lot out of that summary

 

[Guyzerr]

i got a lot out of that summary

Really ! :eek

The only thing I picked up on is his solid stand that what works elsewhere wouldn't work in the US because of their uniqueness. Oh... and that he didn't say anything disparaging about the Canadian system that also works like a charm but wouldn't work down there because they are " different ". That deserves two of these..........

 

[Francis]

People didn't have free replacements before insurance came along. They don't need free replacements now. Living within one's means is a wonderfully freeing feeling. You should try it.
You're way off base. It's not the medical service, it's the dependence on the federal gov't that I'm against. That dependence is what has destroyed America and reduced us to the amoral, lazy, bitchy, dependent, dysfunctional population we have become.

Accountable will never accept that socialized health care is good for all. It's not that he is bad but the concept is beyond his understanding.. I am sorry I am not being disrespectful but there are people who cannot see, or don't want to, the benefits of certain programs.
How can you explain that

Bullshit. You said the concept is beyond my understanding, then typed in some fucked up disrespectful "I am not being disrespectful but" patronization. Then you did exactly as I predicted and frog-leaped the question and alit right atop your comfortable preconceptions.

Drop in the quote, any quote, where I said it has failed.

Drop in the quote, any quote, where I said anything at all disparaging of Canada's healthcare system. If you want to be intellectually honest, maybe you'll acknowledge the times I said you can have whatever healthcare system you'd like.

You're God damn right it's a BIG DEAL, just like the way your country's government is run should be a big deal to you. Assuming you're even still reading this, if you truly wish to stop being disrespectful, state my positions accurately or not at all.

As I said I stand by my statement..

Sorry if I don't always have 100% of the time to put together a time line that meets your requirements.

None the less, I justify my statements with the following.. First quote makes the point that living within your means is a great thing. Below that you go on to state about how you want your federal government to stay out of Health Care. You do understand that the more people pay into a system that is centralized, the more cost effective it becomes right, hence how social health care works ?

Second point.. When I made my statement about you never accepting socialized health care it was not about the Canadian one, it was only socialized health care in general. As further mentioned I can only relate, due to changes in many systems in the last 6 years, to the Canadian Social Health Care system.

Also the last posts seems to shift away from Social Health Care and tend to claim try to make it look like I was trying to state you were putting down Canada's health Care system.. Furthest from the truth.. As pointed above, I can only relate to Canada's health care system an highlighted the fact I was only making the statement about socialized health care..

I see the last statement you Assumed I disrespected you on suddenly has disappeared from the topic now..

As for insults.. Well you are the only one who used Bullshit and feel patronization. I guess I should not feel anything for being lambasted about comments not made or misunderstood and you can just brush over them ?

Cheers..

 

[porterjack]

Really ! :eek

The only thing I picked up on is his solid stand that what works elsewhere wouldn't work in the US because of their uniqueness. Oh... and that he didn't say anything disparaging about the Canadian system that also works like a charm but wouldn't work down there because they are " different ". That deserves two of these..........

yes it summarised exactly what he has been saying

 

[Accountable]

Also the last posts seems to shift away from Social Health Care and tend to claim try to make it look like I was trying to state you were putting down Canada's health Care system.. Furthest from the truth..

Socialized Health Care, as much as you may want to disagree, has not failed.

There are many like you here in Canada that would love our Health Care to fail so we could become private again.

Don't let your own words stand in your way.

As for insults.. Well you are the only one who used Bullshit and feel patronization. I guess I should not feel anything for being lambasted about comments not made or misunderstood and you can just brush over them ?

When you insult and patronize, (eta: and lie,) you should expect a backlash. It's rather stupid to expect anything else.

 

[Accountable]

i got a lot out of that summary

Really ! :eek

The only thing I picked up on is his solid stand that what works elsewhere wouldn't work in the US because of their uniqueness. Oh... and that he didn't say anything disparaging about the Canadian system that also works like a charm but wouldn't work down there because they are " different ". That deserves two of these..........

yes it summarised exactly what he has been saying

Thanks, Porterjack.
Guyzer, my point is that a federal health system wouldn't work because it isn't allowed by our Constitution. The Constitution can be changed, but that must happen, legally, before anything else moves forward.

That's why a national system is not right for the US.

I think that decentralized state systems would be far better in promoting innovation and constantly improving the systems. A centralized system can't take as much advantage of benchmarking. I would still vote against it in my state, but if, say, Florida wants to go completely communist, they should go for it. It doesn't affect me.

See what I mean?

 

[Guyzerr]

Thanks, Porterjack.
Guyzer, my point is that a federal health system wouldn't work because it isn't allowed by our Constitution. The Constitution can be changed, but that must happen, legally, before anything else moves forward.

I don't for as much as one iota believe that those old buggers that wrote your constitution gave medical care a thought nor do I believe that your constitution spells out that a socialized health care system isn't allowed.

That's why a national system is not right for the US.

Please leave the constitution out of the equation just one time and tell me why it's wouldn't work for the US when it been proven to work in many different areas of the world. Just one time is all I ask.

I think that decentralized state systems would be far better in promoting innovation and constantly improving the systems. A centralized system can't take as much advantage of benchmarking. I would still vote against it in my state, but if, say, Florida wants to go completely communist, they should go for it. It doesn't affect me.

See what I mean?

Well I see you looking at your own country as not being a country. I see you looking at it as being a conglomeration of a pile of different jurisdictions that should be able to do what they want providing it doesn't affect you. As far as I'm concerned that's a very selfish way to look at things.

I'm going to stick my neck out and assume that you and your wife have great coverage provided by your employer due to a union contract. Am I correct in that assumption?

 

[Accountable]

I don't for as much as one iota believe that those old buggers that wrote your constitution gave medical care a thought nor do I believe that your constitution spells out that a socialized health care system isn't allowed.

You can accuse me of lying and insult my country all you like; it doesn't change the truth. Amendment #10: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#Am10

Our Founders realized that unforeseen things would crop up, so they set up a process to amend the Constitution as I mentioned earlier.

That's why a national system is not right for the US.

Well I see you looking at your own country as not being a country.

Your view is incorrect. This is what I meant when I wrote to Francis, "I respect that other sovereign nations have the natural right to conduct their business as they see fit, a respect that you don't reciprocate." I apply the same statement to you. People talk about the arrogance of the US (a label we definitely deserve as a nation, regardless of the individual citizens), but I see great arrogance in your apparent view that unless we conduct ourselves as you do in your country, we are worthy of ridicule. Again, We have a system in place. It's not identical to your system. Accept that. Respect that.

I see you looking at it as being a conglomeration of a pile of different jurisdictions that should be able to do what they want providing it doesn't affect you.

I don't agree with the phrasing, but the overall idea is accurate. Hey, guess what? I believe Canada should be able to do what they want providing it doesn't affect me, as well. Is that the wrong view to take?

As far as I'm concerned that's a very selfish way to look at things.

'kay. I spose you don't see it as selfish or arrogant to want your views imposed on the US, huh?

I'm going to stick my neck out and assume that you and your wife have great coverage provided by your employer due to a union contract. Am I correct in that assumption?

No, but don't let that stop you from rejecting my opinion. There are plenty of reasons to avoid actually addressing what I'm saying. Lessee :humm:, you can say that because I'm a white male I'm part of the privileged class. Or that because I haven't had a life-threatening illness myself that I'm not qualified to have an opinion. Now that you know my wife isn't in the medical field you can use that to show I don't know what I'm talking about, since you can't say that I'm overprivileged for having a medical professional in the family. Oh, I'm sure there are dozens of reasons to avoid thinking outside your little box. You'll come up with something. :thumbup

 

[Minor Axis]

I'm out of sync with this discussion.

A ways back I mentioned Canada because philosophically if someone is against universal health care it stands to reason they would in principle be against it no matter where it was happening and Canada is an example of an universal health care that is currently operating. I know of no inherent problems with their health system. If there are some, links would be appreciated. I don't know for sure, but my impression is that is it doing a better job of covering a higher percentage of Canadian citizens than the U.S. health care does for it's citizens. When I asked Accountable about it, he just replied with a question and I was not in a mood to play that game, so I ignored his reply.

If you want to get back to philosophical basics you can either believe that everyone deserves free/low cost health care or you can go with how Libertarians or those who feel that government can't do anything right and push the "every man for themselves" standard. As I previously said I know families who make in the low $20ks and even though it is offered, they can't afford health coverage. So it might as well not be there.

I believe that it is natural for society to evolve from a "me" attitude to a "we" attitude. In my opinion moving away from "me" should also prevent a few individuals from amassing vast fortunes at the expense of everyone else. If you are smart and energetic, you should be rewarded, but there should be a limit. The "me" crowd wants no limits, it's grab as much as you can. Other moderate income "me" individuals don't want to pay for anyone else.

For myself, the bottom line is that any workable economic/health system must be fair and sustainable. And unless you are an expert on such matters, you must rely on the expert of your choosing. This is why I would have a hard time believing a conservative economist (conservative as in political) whose focus is completely on business and benefiting only those who own businesses, and I'm talking of big corporations, where the big money is made and the big abuses can occur.

Philosophically I don't believe profit based health care is a good idea for the same reason I don't believe the police or firemen should be for-profit institutions.

 

[Minor Axis]

Regarding the Constitution, the "general welfare" clause could cover this. It can be argued that keeping the majority of working age people healthy by means of access to affordable health care is something that benefits us as a country with the disclaimer that it be constructed in a fair and sustainable fashion. This disucssion should focus on is it a good idea or not. I'm convinced that those who argue against universal health care, if it was spelled out item by item in the Constitution would be in this forum arguing why it needs to be removed from the Constitution. Just like some Republican's are arguing removal of the 14th Amendment (children born in this country are citizens). Most of those who are for or against would be arguing the exact same way no matter if it was in the Constitution or not.

 

[Guyzerr]

You can accuse me of lying and insult my country all you like; it doesn't change the truth. Amendment #10: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#Am10

Our Founders realized that unforeseen things would crop up, so they set up a process to amend the Constitution as I mentioned earlier.

You have really gone over the deep end. Nowhere did I bad mouth your country and at no time did I so much as suggest you are a liar. I'm sorry you live in a world with pink elephants and purple sky and everyone has a white picket fence surrounding their homes. In any event your constitution is like the Bible. You can have 20 people read it and all summarize it a different way. Such is life I suppose.

As to the rest of your post I'm not going to waste my time responding. Talking to you about this issue is a gross misuse of my time.

I bid you well and hope you never get sick at a time when you don't have full medical coverage.

 

[Accountable]

You have really gone over the deep end. Nowhere did I bad mouth your country and at no time did I so much as suggest you are a liar. I'm sorry you live in a world with pink elephants and purple sky and everyone has a white picket fence surrounding their homes. In any event your constitution is like the Bible. You can have 20 people read it and all summarize it a different way. Such is life I suppose.

As to the rest of your post I'm not going to waste my time responding. Talking to you about this issue is a gross misuse of my time.

I bid you well and hope you never get sick at a time when you don't have full medical coverage.

See? I knew you could find another reason on your own. Good boy!

 

[Guyzerr]

See? I knew you could find another reason on your own. Good boy!

You must one one of those " special " teachers.

 

[Francis]

I'm out of sync with this discussion.

A ways back I mentioned Canada because philosophically if someone is against universal health care it stands to reason they would in principle be against it no matter where it was happening and Canada is an example of an universal health care that is currently operating. I know of no inherent problems with their health system. If there are some, links would be appreciated. I don't know for sure, but my impression is that is it doing a better job of covering a higher percentage of Canadian citizens than the U.S. health care does for it's citizens. When I asked Accountable about it, he just replied with a question and I was not in a mood to play that game, so I ignored his reply.

Sorry I meant to answer you on that Minor and never got to it..

Our system is far from perfect, as any is, but it works well most of the time.. It is based on the principal that is covers the very basic ( doctors and hospital visits ) while leaving many of the other aspects of the day to day in the hands of the private sector.

Here is an slightly out dated look at both countries health care.. I think the US information has been quickly updated while the Canadian information has lagged..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_the_health_care_systems_in_Canada_and_the_United_States

 

[Minor Axis]

I'm going to stick my neck out and assume that you and your wife have great coverage provided by your employer due to a union contract. Am I correct in that assumption?

I noticed he did not answer that.

As to the rest of your post I'm not going to waste my time responding. Talking to you about this issue is a gross misuse of my time.

Getting into long drawn out conversations regarding religion and politics normally is. The key is to conserve your energy.

Sorry I meant to answer you on that Minor and never got to it..

Our system is far from perfect, as any is, but it works well most of the time.. It is based on the principal that is covers the very basic ( doctors and hospital visits ) while leaving many of the other aspects of the day to day in the hands of the private sector.

Here is an slightly out dated look at both countries health care.. I think the US information has been quickly updated while the Canadian information has lagged..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_the_health_care_systems_in_Canada_and_the_United_States

Good reading, thanks! I see it is wikipedia so you can always wonder how accurate it is. A couple months ago I flew to Houston sitting beside a Canadian and we ended up talking health care. His bottom line was, "I don't know what I'd do if I had to pay for medical." And before one of our conservative friends jump in and say, "he is paying for medical!", he knew that, but he was content with the level of taxes he pays for the service and liked not having to worry about the big ticket sicknesses.

 

[Francis]

Good reading, thanks! I see it is wikipedia so you can always wonder how accurate it is. A couple months ago I flew to Houston sitting beside a Canadian and we ended up talking health care. His bottom line was, "I don't know what I'd do if I had to pay for medical." And before one of our conservative friends jump in and say, "he is paying for medical!", he knew that, but he was content with the level of taxes he pays for the service and liked not having to worry about the big ticket sicknesses.

Yes it is Wiki but it is pretty good for basic info.. Here is another site that gives you the Canadian Health Care break down pretty simply, but again it is not up to date..

Let me explain quickly.. Its not as simple as one issue and I will only touch one a few..
1) In the early 1998 our Government ( Federal ) balance our budget.. To do so, they had to drastically cut funding to the Provinces ( States ) in order to meet that criteria.. When that was acheived they re-instated a lot of the transfer funding and so on.. The Provinces ( States ) used that to even further cut funding as they balanced their budgets and passed that on to the lower levels and Health Boards blaming the Federal Government for the problems. So on goes trickle economics as you can see.. One passes his problem to the other while saying it's all the other guys fault.. The real problem was compounded, just one fold..
2) We started having not just a family doctor shortage but also a specialist shortage. To some extent we still have some of that happening with all the baby boomers retiring many of them being doctors.. With cut backs happening operating rooms were cut back and some closed beds.. No doctors to operate, no need for added rooms and tables..
3) item 2 already mentioned the baby boomers and they created a problem in health care costs the Provinces and Health Boards had not planned on for being short sighted.. I can understand them having the budget issues cause by Governments, but not having taken steps to correct certain aspects earlier cause the bigger problem..

Since our budgets at the Federal level and in many province were balanced till 2009, many of those problems ( wait times and budget issues ) had basically disappeared and they were able to put back money into hospitals.

Specialists still have been an issue due to the lenght of time it takes to train them and get them approved by the CMA ( AMA Equiv ) to practice. In my area I had 5 Neurologist retire last year in the same clinic.. That's a hell of a beating, so two decided to do part time work fill in until some new doctors come on board. But they do not see regular patients, only emergency cases. It's the same problem with Cardiologists and so on.. I was told many of these specialist take up to 10 years to train.. Not sure I am not one so i have no idea..

Anyhow here is the link... Enjoy..

http://www.canadian-healthcare.org/

 

[Guyzerr]

I noticed he did not answer that.

I hate to defend him in this thread but what's right is right.
He did answer it. He said " no ". :24:

Getting into long drawn out conversations regarding religion and politics normally is. The key is to conserve your energy.

Axis as far as I'm concerned the words " health care & politics " don't belong in the same sentence.

The key is to conserve your energy.

Unfortunately he has the " constitution " drilled into his brain so deep he'll never change his mind... unless of course some day he and his family are caught in a medical crisis without coverage.

"he is paying for medical!", he knew that, but he was content with the level of taxes he pays for the service and liked not having to worry about the big ticket sicknesses.

Truer words were never spoken. That pretty much sums up the feeling in Canada. Matter of fact I do not know one person that wants to see a system such as the US one in place here.