Over A Million Innocent People Perished In A War Based On A Lie! Congressman Dennis K

[Alien Allen]

Re: Over A Million Innocent People Perished In A War Based On A Lie! Congressman Denn

Did I ever say I supported invading Iraq?

I believe I put in a couple of IF's

I am not for nation building.

We have a history of propping up bad guys. Iraq was not the first nor will it be the last time.

 

[dt3]

Re: Over A Million Innocent People Perished In A War Based On A Lie! Congressman Denn

That really is a pathetic cuscus belli for invading Iraq, considering that the Regan administration fostered close relations with the Iraqi’s at the time of those atrocities, who saw them as a counterbalance to Iranian influence in the Middle East.

Most of the gassing (Simply saying ‘gassing’ certainly doesn’t even begin to provide an accurate picture of the horrendous injustices committed by Saddam’s regime against the Kurds during this period, I might add.) attacks occurred during the late 1980’s, which generally encompass the Al-Anfal campaign, and the Halabja massacre. However, the United States, overlooked these events, and throughout the conflict, provided Iraq with economic, military and diplomatic support.

The Riegle report, found that, during the period of 1985-1989, the United States had provided biological agents to Iraq, that: “Could have been cultured or grown in large volume in an Iraqi biological warfare program”. It’s quite ironic for someone like George Bush to say that Saddam is a danger because he “Gassed his own people”, when in fact, the United States was assisting Saddam expand his chemical weapons capabilities.

During the Halabja massacre where the Iraqi government killed 3,000 Kurds in a single gas attack, the US State department, to obscure responsibility, asserted that Iran was also culpable in the attack, despite knowing that Iranian invovlement was a fallacy.

Finally, in 1988, the US congress introduced the Prevention of Genocide of 1988, which sought to punish Iraq for its attacks on the Kurds, speaking of the bill, Jesse Helms said: “This legislation will help demonstrate to the Iraqi regime just how seriously our country views its campaign against the Kurds. In addition, it will help assure that US tax dollars do not subsidize the Iraqis.”

Reagan threatened to veto the bill, and the administration heavily lobbied for its defeat. Needless to say, the bill did not pass.

So, being one of the fallback justifications for invading Iraq, the argument is pretty weak, unless it symbolizes US foreign policy as being “You can genocide your people and we’ll completely ignore it, however, 20 years down the track, we might use it as a reason to attack you”. So, we might expect to be invading Sudan in 2024.

Thanks for the history lesson. However, I stand by my statement: genocide is always bad.

 

[Tim]

Re: Over A Million Innocent People Perished In A War Based On A Lie! Congressman Denn

I love this quote. You have in one sentence summed up the entirety of the liberal anti-war movement in this country.

It doesn't matter that they did it to themselves. It's still Americas fault!! :willy_nilly:

We unleashed holy hell in Iraq. We are responsible for the chaos that occurred once we destroyed any sense of order that was. Yes dictators kill their own people and it's a horrible form of government. Yes Saddam needed to be disposed of. But NO we did not need to destroy Iraq and facilitate the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people to do it. And it's even more reprehensible for the simple fact that we did not go in to take out Saddam, we went in for the control of the Iraqi oil fields. For the greed of the few, we destroyed a country.
And I have made it clear time and time again, I am not against war. But our safety better be in jeopardy before we decide to unleash our armed forces on the poor bastards.

I guess Tim forgot the gassing of the Kurds and some other little sunday school adventures before we went there eh

Nope, didn't forget about that at all.

Ever notice the double standards in our society? Us standing by and watching the genocide in Darfur is morally reprehensible. The same people that would support our intervening in Darfur are the same ones who say doing something about the genocide in Iraq was morally reprehensible.

I'm of the opinion that genocide is always bad. :dunno

Genocide is always bad, I can agree with that. But how can you say that what we did in Iraq was in their best interests? Are they better off today than they were under Saddam? How many millions are displaced today because of the war? How many men, women and children are dead because of the war? Wouldn't it have been better for us to support the internal opposition to Saddam and let them deal with their own? Wasn't their a better way to rid the world of Saddam without destroying a country to do so?
And don't forget that our job was never to remove Saddam, but to rid Iraq of the WMDs that were going to be used against us, remember???

That really is a pathetic cuscus belli for invading Iraq, considering that the Regan administration fostered close relations with the Iraqi’s at the time of those atrocities, who saw them as a counterbalance to Iranian influence in the Middle East.

Most of the gassing (Simply saying ‘gassing’ certainly doesn’t even begin to provide an accurate picture of the horrendous injustices committed by Saddam’s regime against the Kurds during this period, I might add.) attacks occurred during the late 1980’s, which generally encompass the Al-Anfal campaign, and the Halabja massacre. However, the United States, overlooked these events, and throughout the conflict, provided Iraq with economic, military and diplomatic support.

The Riegle report, found that, during the period of 1985-1989, the United States had provided biological agents to Iraq, that: “Could have been cultured or grown in large volume in an Iraqi biological warfare program”. It’s quite ironic for someone like George Bush to say that Saddam is a danger because he “Gassed his own people”, when in fact, the United States was assisting Saddam expand his chemical weapons capabilities.

During the Halabja massacre where the Iraqi government killed 3,000 Kurds in a single gas attack, the US State department, to obscure responsibility, asserted that Iran was also culpable in the attack, despite knowing that Iranian invovlement was a fallacy.

Finally, in 1988, the US congress introduced the Prevention of Genocide of 1988, which sought to punish Iraq for its attacks on the Kurds, speaking of the bill, Jesse Helms said: “This legislation will help demonstrate to the Iraqi regime just how seriously our country views its campaign against the Kurds. In addition, it will help assure that US tax dollars do not subsidize the Iraqis.”

Reagan threatened to veto the bill, and the administration heavily lobbied for its defeat. Needless to say, the bill did not pass.

So, being one of the fallback justifications for invading Iraq, the argument is pretty weak, unless it symbolizes US foreign policy as being “You can genocide your people and we’ll completely ignore it, however, 20 years down the track, we might use it as a reason to attack you”. So, we might expect to be invading Sudan in 2024.

:clap Could not have said it better myself.

 

[Tangerine]

Re: Over A Million Innocent People Perished In A War Based On A Lie! Congressman Denn

I believe "Regime Change" was a clearly stated goal of going into Iraq from the very beginning. Certainly not the only one, but it was mentioned often.

Based on input from my sister (a US Army Colonel with two tours in Iraq and one in Afghanistan) I would say that Iraqis, as a whole, are absolutely better off today than before we went in. How anyone could believe that life under a murderous dictator and his sadistic sons is better than today is beyond me. Yes, lots of damage and misery were part of the war. And the aftermath is chaotic and uncertain. But today Iraqi people have HOPE, and they are understanding the crude basics of freedom. Before, there was none. Our country (and to some degree our world) just placed a LOT of power in the hands of an unproven leader under the auspices of HOPE, so I don't think it's trivial to point out.

 

[nova]

Re: Over A Million Innocent People Perished In A War Based On A Lie! Congressman Denn

I'm of the opinion that genocide is always bad. :dunno

I agree totally. I'm also beginning to lean towards the opinion that it falls into the category of "not our problem" as long as it not happening within our borders....

Isolationism probably isn't the best answer but damn, if people are going to criticize and hate us no matter what we do, doing nothing is the cheaper option, both in blood and money...

 

[dt3]

Re: Over A Million Innocent People Perished In A War Based On A Lie! Congressman Denn

We unleashed holy hell in Iraq. We are responsible for the chaos that occurred once we destroyed any sense of order that was. Yes dictators kill their own people and it's a horrible form of government. Yes Saddam needed to be disposed of. But NO we did not need to destroy Iraq and facilitate the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people to do it. And it's even more reprehensible for the simple fact that we did not go in to take out Saddam, we went in for the control of the Iraqi oil fields. For the greed of the few, we destroyed a country.
And I have made it clear time and time again, I am not against war. But our safety better be in jeopardy before we decide to unleash our armed forces on the poor bastards.

So you agree that Saddam needed to go, you just don't think we should've gone in and done it? That's not how life works. What if we had just dropped a bomb on him and his entire family and never set foot in the country. Who do you think would have stepped in to fill the power void? Another radical dictator. We had to do it the way we did to set up a legitimate, stable government. Otherwise what's the point of removing Saddam in the first place?

Genocide is always bad, I can agree with that. But how can you say that what we did in Iraq was in their best interests? Are they better off today than they were under Saddam? How many millions are displaced today because of the war? How many men, women and children are dead because of the war? Wouldn't it have been better for us to support the internal opposition to Saddam and let them deal with their own? Wasn't their a better way to rid the world of Saddam without destroying a country to do so?
And don't forget that our job was never to remove Saddam, but to rid Iraq of the WMDs that were going to be used against us, remember???

I've said it before, but I'll say it again. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that they're better off today. I was there when they executed Saddam. They were dancing in the streets for WEEKS. Months afterwards, I'd still meet Iraqi's who would smile and wrap their hands around their neck like they were choking while saying "Saddam dead".

Hell, the average Iraqi is terrified of a pistol. You can point a rifle at them, and it's no big deal. Everybody has rifles there, they aren't intimidated. But if you pull a pistol you can damn sure bet that they'll drop to the ground faster than you can imagine. Know why? Because that's what Saddam's death squads used when they rounded people up in the middle of the night and executed them in the streets. Pistols are a symbol of power to them.

Yeah, they're better off now and you will never convince me otherwise because I've seen it and they've told me.

 

[Accountable]

Re: Over A Million Innocent People Perished In A War Based On A Lie! Congressman Denn

So you agree that Saddam needed to go, you just don't think we should've gone in and done it? That's not how life works. What if we had just dropped a bomb on him and his entire family and never set foot in the country. Who do you think would have stepped in to fill the power void? Another radical dictator. We had to do it the way we did to set up a legitimate, stable government. Otherwise what's the point of removing Saddam in the first place?

My only question here is: Why did it have to be us to take him out?

 

[dt3]

Re: Over A Million Innocent People Perished In A War Based On A Lie! Congressman Denn

My only question here is: Why did it have to be us to take him out?

Because nobody else would? In my opinion sitting idly by and doing nothing makes you just as complicit as if you were the one doing it. I don't expect everyone to agree with that, but that's the way I see it.

Sure, our meddling and intervening in foreign affairs is one of the primary reasons groups like Al Qaeda came into being, and the reason people like Saddam were put into power. I understand that, and I like history too much too ignore that. However, I also remember how isolationism worked out for as after WWI. We still had a WWII. There has to be a balance somewhere between the two, and that's the path I think we need to take. But I think it's morally wrong to stand by and do nothing while innocent civilians are being killed.

 

[darkcgi]

Re: Over A Million Innocent People Perished In A War Based On A Lie! Congressman Denn

My hates.
to many to list but I know whats on top.
"bitches"

 

[Accountable]

Re: Over A Million Innocent People Perished In A War Based On A Lie! Congressman Denn

Because nobody else would? In my opinion sitting idly by and doing nothing makes you just as complicit as if you were the one doing it. I don't expect everyone to agree with that, but that's the way I see it.

Sure, our meddling and intervening in foreign affairs is one of the primary reasons groups like Al Qaeda came into being, and the reason people like Saddam were put into power. I understand that, and I like history too much too ignore that. However, I also remember how isolationism worked out for as after WWI. We still had a WWII. There has to be a balance somewhere between the two, and that's the path I think we need to take. But I think it's morally wrong to stand by and do nothing while innocent civilians are being killed.

Lemme get this straight. Your complaint is that we're not intervening enough in other nations' internal affairs??

We should reinstate the Dalai Lama?
We should wade into Hell only knows how many oppressive regimes throughout Africa?
We should replace most of the governments of Central and South America?

It's our responsibility because no one else will do it??

 

[Tangerine]

Re: Over A Million Innocent People Perished In A War Based On A Lie! Congressman Denn

Lemme get this straight. Your complaint is that we're not intervening enough in other nations' internal affairs??

We should reinstate the Dalai Lama?
We should wade into Hell only knows how many oppressive regimes throughout Africa?
We should replace most of the governments of Central and South America?

It's our responsibility because no one else will do it??

In a word, yes.

Through political, economic and if necessary, military means, yes. Why? Because it's what is RIGHT, and that is what we stand for. Because that's what leaders do. And like it or not, we're among the leaders of this world.

 

[Accountable]

Re: Over A Million Innocent People Perished In A War Based On A Lie! Congressman Denn

In a word, yes.

Through political, economic and if necessary, military means, yes. Why? Because it's what is RIGHT, and that is what we stand for. Because that's what leaders do. And like it or not, we're among the leaders of this world.

In two words, we can't. How would you have us prioritize who to attack next?

Do we attack anyone and everyone who doesn't give everyone every freedom acknowledged by the Constitution? Where does the UK fall on that list?

 

[kelvin070]

Re: Over A Million Innocent People Perished In A War Based On A Lie! Congressman Denn

Singapore should be on the top priority hit list cuz of chewing gums.

 

[Tangerine]

Re: Over A Million Innocent People Perished In A War Based On A Lie! Congressman Denn

In two words, we can't. How would you have us prioritize who to attack next?

Do we attack anyone and everyone who doesn't give everyone every freedom acknowledged by the Constitution? Where does the UK fall on that list?

Of course we CAN'T. I'm speaking philosophically about what I believe we SHOULD do. And you're stretching my words into something ridiculous. You gave three scenarios, I said "Yes" would should continue to press for those goals. How you equate that to extending our Constitution worldwide is beyond me.

And I didn't say attack everyone. We influence the internal workings of nearly every nation on earth with money and politics already. That won't stop anytime soon. But I would have no problem involving our military more frequently and more powerfully in the worst of situations where people are dying at the hands of those who should be protecting them. Right now? Darfur should be #1. But we all know that will never happen.

 

[Accountable]

Re: Over A Million Innocent People Perished In A War Based On A Lie! Congressman Denn

Of course we CAN'T. I'm speaking philosophically about what I believe we SHOULD do. And you're stretching my words into something ridiculous. You gave three scenarios, I said "Yes" would should continue to press for those goals. How you equate that to extending our Constitution worldwide is beyond me.

And I didn't say attack everyone. We influence the internal workings of nearly every nation on earth with money and politics already. That won't stop anytime soon. But I would have no problem involving our military more frequently and more powerfully in the worst of situations where people are dying at the hands of those who should be protecting them. Right now? Darfur should be #1. But we all know that will never happen.

Those three scenarios included attacking the other global superpower and blanketing two entire continents! Oppression is a nebulous term that can be twisted to fit any situation, and can easily fit any country in the world. For instance, I just found out that Australia has made certain peaceful assembly illegal, and permits unwarranted searches on their own citizens.

What right do we have to intervene in sovereign countries' affairs? Who draws the lines / makes the limits?

 

[dt3]

Re: Over A Million Innocent People Perished In A War Based On A Lie! Congressman Denn

Lemme get this straight. Your complaint is that we're not intervening enough in other nations' internal affairs??

We should reinstate the Dalai Lama?
We should wade into Hell only knows how many oppressive regimes throughout Africa?
We should replace most of the governments of Central and South America?

It's our responsibility because no one else will do it??

Tangerine sums it up pretty nicely for me.

In a word, yes.

Through political, economic and if necessary, military means, yes. Why? Because it's what is RIGHT, and that is what we stand for. Because that's what leaders do. And like it or not, we're among the leaders of this world.

How the hell can our President go to foreign countries and say we were wrong for waterboarding suspected terrorists and apologize, while doing nothing about mass genocide in other countries? Which is the greater evil here? Like I said before in this thread, genocide is ALWAYS bad. And I believe we have a moral responsibility to do what we can to stop it.

That's all theoretical though. I know damn well we can't right every wrong in the world, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do what we can where we can.

 

[Accountable]

Re: Over A Million Innocent People Perished In A War Based On A Lie! Congressman Denn

We offer safe haven and whatever other peaceful means exist, but we should not violate the sovereignty of another nation, except in defense. Removing one gov't and inserting one in our image is nothing other than empire-building in disguise.

 

[Tim]

Re: Over A Million Innocent People Perished In A War Based On A Lie! Congressman Denn

How the hell can our President go to foreign countries and say we were wrong for waterboarding suspected terrorists and apologize, while doing nothing about mass genocide in other countries? Which is the greater evil here? Like I said before in this thread, genocide is ALWAYS bad. And I believe we have a moral responsibility to do what we can to stop it.

That's all theoretical though. I know damn well we can't right every wrong in the world, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do what we can where we can.

How can you condemn the president for not stopping the genocide that goes on in this world AND condemn him for stopping torture in the same sentence? Both are morally wrong, both need to be stopped. He was able to stop torture with a stroke of a pen, but that isn't the case with genocide around the world. And who's to say that genocide that does take place around the world is being dealt with? It's not as simple as just sending our troops in to fix the problem. There are other things going on that require immediate attention. We cannot handle everything at once. And you are much more likely to see action when it comes to dealing with genocide out of a Democratic president than you ever will out of a Republican one. Unless there is oil to be had.

 

[dt3]

Re: Over A Million Innocent People Perished In A War Based On A Lie! Congressman Denn

How can you condemn the president for not stopping the genocide that goes on in this world AND condemn him for stopping torture in the same sentence? Both are morally wrong, both need to be stopped. He was able to stop torture with a stroke of a pen, but that isn't the case with genocide around the world. And who's to say that genocide that does take place around the world is being dealt with? It's not as simple as just sending our troops in to fix the problem. There are other things going on that require immediate attention. We cannot handle everything at once. And you are much more likely to see action when it comes to dealing with genocide out of a Democratic president than you ever will out of a Republican one. Unless there is oil to be had.

Way to make it partisan Tim :clap

Who cares what someone's party affiliation is? A wrong is still a wrong and doing the right thing is still the right thing.

 

[Tangerine]

Re: Over A Million Innocent People Perished In A War Based On A Lie! Congressman Denn

And you are much more likely to see action when it comes to dealing with genocide out of a Democratic president than you ever will out of a Republican one.

Based on WHAT?