Off Shoring Jobs- Good for our Security?

[Tim]

My point is that it is insanely expensive (whether or not you count healthcare) to pay for manufacturing jobs with union workers in the US. That is why no companies will start new manufacturing plants here - because they are afraid of their workforce unionizing.

I work for a manufacturing company just north of Philadelphia. We supply millwork and casework for the hospitals and universities in the city. Our shop is unionized and it has helped us MUCH more than it has hurt us.

Let me fill you in on the many benefits the union allows my company.

1. VERY flexible labor pool. This allows us to cut labor costs in slow times and pick up as many people we need when we are very busy. This saves us money in the slow times since we don't need to carry extra employees when times are tough. And we don't have to pay the extra costs in overtime when things are busy. We can tailor our shop staff to fit our needs in less than 24 hours. Try doing that without a union.

2. Our shop employees are very good at their work. They have been trained prior to coming into our facility. This save a lot of money in hiring new employees and training them in house only to find out they don't work out and we lose that valuable time and money. The company I worked at prior to this one was not unionized and trying to find a qualified employee was a 6 month process at least. If you lived in this area and you were good at your job, then you were already with a company. So the likelihood of getting a qualified mechanic in the shop was next to nill, unless you stole them from your competitor. And that leads to the next problem... The pay scale for union cabinet makers and nonunion are almost identical since good cabinet makers are hard to come by and when one works for you, you tend to pay them well enough to keep them.

So when you sit their and say that unions are driving manufacturing jobs out of the country, I know you are talking out of your ass. You spout talking points without any real knowledge behind what unions actually bring TO the industry. Our company is VERY competitive with our nonunion competitors in the area. And we enjoy the benefit of flexible labor that they don't. So please educate yourself in real world examples of unions before you open your mouth.

BTW, my job is not a union one. Just the guys in the shop, not the management like myself.

 

[Alien Allen]

All states are at-will employment.

As far as A@P getting spanked by the union when they tried to discipline lazy workers... that has to do with the contract they signed, not the union. The only power the union has over the owners/management is the contract that was negotiated between the parties. That's it. And as far as strikes go, that's only allowed if it's written into the contract. So if the union is not given authorization to strike in the contract you negotiate between them and you, then you can fire anyone that tries to strike. It's only the contract that makes it legal and management needed to agree to it at one point.

All I know as the lazy ass got their way. The union intimidated the company so that action was not taken.

At the risk of being called a racist I can add that in the 3 stores my wife worked at the management was white and the workers at fault black. The minute somebody tried to do something the workers ran and cried discrimination. At the last store which was in an affluent neighborhood the worst cases were women that came from Detroit with punk kids and lousy attitudes that also intimidated. It pissed off to no end the double standard but anytime one of the co workers complained those complaints fell on deaf ears.

 

[SgtSpike]

I work for a manufacturing company just north of Philadelphia. We supply millwork and casework for the hospitals and universities in the city. Our shop is unionized and it has helped us MUCH more than it has hurt us.

Let me fill you in on the many benefits the union allows my company.

1. VERY flexible labor pool. This allows us to cut labor costs in slow times and pick up as many people we need when we are very busy. This saves us money in the slow times since we don't need to carry extra employees when times are tough. And we don't have to pay the extra costs in overtime when things are busy. We can tailor our shop staff to fit our needs in less than 24 hours. Try doing that without a union.

2. Our shop employees are very good at their work. They have been trained prior to coming into our facility. This save a lot of money in hiring new employees and training them in house only to find out they don't work out and we lose that valuable time and money. The company I worked at prior to this one was not unionized and trying to find a qualified employee was a 6 month process at least. If you lived in this area and you were good at your job, then you were already with a company. So the likelihood of getting a qualified mechanic in the shop was next to nill, unless you stole them from your competitor. And that leads to the next problem... The pay scale for union cabinet makers and nonunion are almost identical since good cabinet makers are hard to come by and when one works for you, you tend to pay them well enough to keep them.

So when you sit their and say that unions are driving manufacturing jobs out of the country, I know you are talking out of your ass. You spout talking points without any real knowledge behind what unions actually bring TO the industry. Our company is VERY competitive with our nonunion competitors in the area. And we enjoy the benefit of flexible labor that they don't. So please educate yourself in real world examples of unions before you open your mouth.

BTW, my job is not a union one. Just the guys in the shop, not the management like myself.

You make some good points. So, I'll agree with you that, in some situations, unions can be a good thing. Not all unions are bad. But I still argue that MOST of them are, and I'll still point to the big three as a leading example of that.

Oh, BTW, I had no idea that the ability to strike was only an option if it was written into the contract.... so why the crap would any company in their right mind sign a contract with a union that would allow the union to strike? If I was the company, I would either just hire new non-union workers or look for union workers who wouldn't strike. Can you explain that to me? Why a company would be willing to sign such a contract?

 

[Tim]

You make some good points. So, I'll agree with you that, in some situations, unions can be a good thing. Not all unions are bad. But I still argue that MOST of them are, and I'll still point to the big three as a leading example of that.

Oh, BTW, I had no idea that the ability to strike was only an option if it was written into the contract.... so why the crap would any company in their right mind sign a contract with a union that would allow the union to strike? If I was the company, I would either just hire new non-union workers or look for union workers who wouldn't strike. Can you explain that to me? Why a company would be willing to sign such a contract?

The ONLY reason these companies sign these contracts, is the fact that the contract also benefits the owners. Do you think for one second that the owners of the company would enter into a bad contract for fun?

When my company went Union, it took almost 18 months for the owners of my company and the union to reach a final agreement.

 

[SgtSpike]

The ONLY reason these companies sign these contracts, is the fact that the contract also benefits the owners. Do you think for one second that the owners of the company would enter into a bad contract for fun?

When my company went Union, it took almost 18 months for the owners of my company and the union to reach a final agreement.

Makes sense, but what kind of benefits would have there been in a union for GM when they first decided to sign a contract with union employees? Seems like today, they are paying out the ear for it, but at some point in the past, it must have made sense for them to sign up the union.

 

[Minor Axis]

All I know as the lazy ass got their way. The union intimidated the company so that action was not taken.

At the risk of being called a racist I can add that in the 3 stores my wife worked at the management was white and the workers at fault black. The minute somebody tried to do something the workers ran and cried discrimination. At the last store which was in an affluent neighborhood the worst cases were women that came from Detroit with punk kids and lousy attitudes that also intimidated. It pissed off to no end the double standard but anytime one of the co workers complained those complaints fell on deaf ears.

I don't approve of yelling "discrimination!" everytime a policy adversely effects workers especially if it's not racially motivated. :thumbdown However in a union shop normally a contract defines most of the important work points. So I have no idea what was happening, but as a principle, a group the workers are better off organized than an individual standing against the company with a bad policy. No, the company does not have total control and that is good for employees. Yes, unions can get too much power which is bad too.

 

[Minor Axis]

Makes sense, but what kind of benefits would have there been in a union for GM when they first decided to sign a contract with union employees? Seems like today, they are paying out the ear for it, but at some point in the past, it must have made sense for them to sign up the union.

Kinda related was an article in USToday which said there are those in Silicon Valley who think the U.S. Govt should let Detroit Auto industry fall on their swords and instead invest research money in a technology the U.S. is still competitive in. Detroit made many poor marketing decisions over all most the last 40 years even after the warning of the 70's oil embargo. The entire world has been focused on efficient automobiles since the 60s. Yes, it's completely self serving viewpoint, but does it make sense? Do the oil-centric leaders of our goverment (for the last 40 years) shoulder much of the blame? Should Detroit be saved or allowed to surive on it's own, if it can? What concerns me is the ripple effect on the economy if Detroit is allowed to languish.

 

[Minor Axis]

Manufacturing jobs: Does the United States make anything anymore? .

The U.S. by far remains the world’s leading manufacturer by value of goods produced. It hit a record $1.6 trillion in 2007 — nearly double the $811 billion in 1987. For every $1 of value produced in China’s factories, America generates $2.50.

.

How Can the U.S. Economy Recover Without Manufacturing Capacity?.

The U.S. Chamber of Commerce was one of the main lobbyists opposed to provisions that would have mandated that stimulus money go to U.S. companies. The Chamber is a U.S. organization in name only, like its finance capital comrades, the guys that gave the world such a bad case of the dreaded "American Disease," much of the planet is praying that cash-rich China will eventually bail everybody out.

Obama Pledges 2.4 billion for electric cars.

China vies to be World's Leader in Elec Cars..

MadeInUsa.org: Electronics.

The first article was hopeful. It says the value of stuff made in the U.S. is higher than that made in China. Is this info accurate I wonder?

The second link is more alarming. The U.S. Chamber of Commerce is not our friend, especially the working man's friend. It should be named the Corporate Chamber of Commerce.

The MadeInUsa.org link is harder to figure out. It points to other sites and when you go there who knows what you'll see. I checked several links and really could not tell what I was looking at as far as U.S. made products.

Questions: Does anybody in this forum work in manufacturing? If so what do you make and where are you based?

Can the U.S. succeed in becoming a leader in renewable energy/electric autos? I honestly don't know.

 

[KpAtch3s]

Makes sense, but what kind of benefits would have there been in a union for GM when they first decided to sign a contract with union employees? Seems like today, they are paying out the ear for it, but at some point in the past, it must have made sense for them to sign up the union.

Ok, I've just come across this thread and got up to date, you pretty much speak my mind in all your responses. Kudos to you.

 

[BadBoy@TheWheel]

Here's what I see coming....

Now GM has someone directly reporting to Obama, the interim manager. Who claims that it would appear bankruptcy is probably going to be the best option on the table.

Now this to me is comical, because I could have saved taxpayers about 50 billion months ago becuase I KNEW THAT, what GM is looking for, is a "concession based filing", what they want/Obama wants is a sweetheart deal that will protect the unions because he wants the vote.

There is not ONE moron on Obamas car industry panel that has ever signed a paycheck, ran a major coporation least of all a car manufacturer.

What a lot of folks do not understand, is that with most major companies, CEO's swing from one branch to the next, they work in this industry, that industry etc.

I had a Detroit insider tell me that the car industry is very complex, and really needs the hands of someone "Who knows the car business"

Makes sense that Obama doesn't think he needs that.....He's too smart..Just ask him

 

[Alien Allen]

All the experts we hear in the Detroit media make the same comments about the complexity of the auto industry. A lot of management comes up thru the ranks. It is not amazing that Obama has a team such as the one he put in place. He put in bean counters who are just there for window dressing. He wants to have them go bankrupt so he can force them to go green. Never minding the fact that a lot of people want bigger cars.

 

[BadBoy@TheWheel]

All the experts we hear in the Detroit media make the same comments about the complexity of the auto industry. A lot of management comes up thru the ranks. It is not amazing that Obama has a team such as the one he put in place. He put in bean counters who are just there for window dressing. He wants to have them go bankrupt so he can force them to go green. Never minding the fact that a lot of people want bigger cars.

Bean counters that have a problem with paying taxes


Ironically