Michigan sees fewer gun deaths -- with more concealed weapon permits

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GraceAbounds

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Michigan sees fewer gun deaths -- with more permits

January 6, 2008
By DAWSON BELL
FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER

Six years after new rules made it much easier to get a license to carry concealed weapons, the number of Michiganders legally packing heat has increased more than six-fold.

But dire predictions about increased violence and bloodshed have largely gone unfulfilled, according to law enforcement officials and, to the extent they can be measured, crime statistics.

The incidence of violent crime in Michigan in the six years since the law went into effect has been, on average, below the rate of the previous six years. The overall incidence of death from firearms, including suicide and accidents, also has declined.

More than 155,000 Michiganders -- about one in every 65 -- are now authorized to carry loaded guns as they go about their everyday affairs, according to Michigan State Police records.

About 25,000 people had CCW permits in Michigan before the law changed in 2001.

"I think the general consensus out there from law enforcement is that things were not as bad as we expected," said Woodhaven Police Chief Michael Martin, cochair of the legislative committee for the Michigan Association of Chiefs of Police. "There are problems with gun violence. But ... I think we can breathe a sigh of relief that what we anticipated didn't happen."

John Lott, a visiting professor at the University of Maryland who has done extensive research on the role of firearms in American society, said the results in Michigan since the law changed don't surprise him.
Academic studies of concealed weapons laws that generally allow citizens to obtain permits have shown different results, Lott said. About two-thirds of the studies suggest the laws reduce crime; the rest show no net effect, he said.


But no peer-reviewed study has ever shown that crime increases when jurisdictions enact changes like those put in place by the Legislature and then-Gov. John Engler in 2000, Lott said.

In Michigan and elsewhere (liberal permitting is the rule in about 40 states), those who seek CCW permits, get training and pay licensing fees tend to be "the kind of people who don't break laws," Lott said.

Nationally, the rate of CCW permits being revoked is very low, he said. State Police reports in Michigan indicate that 2,178 permits have been revoked or suspended since 2001, slightly more than 1% of those issued.
Another State Police report found that 175 Michigan permit holders were convicted of a crime, most of them nonviolent, requiring revocation or suspension of their permits between July 1, 2005, and June 30, 2006.

But even if more armed citizens have not wreaked havoc, some critics of Michigan's law chafe at how it was passed: against stiff opposition in a lame duck legislative session and attached to an appropriation that nullified efforts at repeal by referendum.

Kenneth Levin, a West Bloomfield physician, was one of those critics. In a letter to the Free Press in July 2001, he referred to the "inevitable first victim of road or workplace rage as a result of this law."

Last month, Levin said he suspected "it probably hasn't turned out as bad as I thought. I don't think I was wrong, but my worst fears weren't realized."

But the manner in which the law was enacted was nevertheless "sneaky" and "undemocratic," Levin said.

Other opponents remain convinced that it has contributed to an ongoing epidemic of firearms-related death and destruction.

Shikha Hamilton of Grosse Pointe, president of the Michigan chapter of the anti-gun group Million Moms March, said she believes overall gun violence (including suicide and accidental shootings) is up in Michigan since 2001. Many incidents involving CCW permit holders have not been widely reported, she said.

The most publicized recent case came early in 2007, when a 40-year-old Macomb County woman fired from her vehicle toward the driver of a truck she claimed had cut her off on I-94. Bernadette Headd was convicted of assault and sentenced to two years in prison.

Hamilton said that even if gun violence has ebbed, it remains pervasive, tragic and unnecessary. At the least, a more liberal concealed weapons law means there are more guns in homes and cars and on the street, she said, and more potential for disaster.

Advocates for the law argue that there is nothing equivocal about the experience of the CCW permit holders who have warded off threats and, in a few instances, saved themselves from harm.


In September, a 36-year-old Troy man killed an armed 18-year-old assailant who, with three other suspects, attempted to steal his car outside Detroit Police headquarters.

Michelle Reurink, 40, a consultant in Lansing, got her CCW permit last year, not so much because she felt an imminent threat to her well-being, she said, but because she's a strong believer in the Constitution's Second Amendment -- the right to bear arms.

"The primary reason I got it is because I feel like I have the right to have it," she said.

Still, she doesn't often carry her gun during her daily routine, though she takes it when she and her husband go on their boat, she said.

Having the license and a handgun makes her feel more secure in her home (where no one needs a CCW license to have a gun), she said. She also feels more secure because of the required training, including self-defense lessons, she took as part of the license application.

Mark Cortis of Royal Oak, who conducts concealed weapons license training and sits on the Oakland County gun board, said he believes the benefits of an armed citizenry are evident in small ways almost every day, as permit holders deter trouble and live more confidently.

"The police just can't protect you," Cortis said. "If you have to call 911, it's probably already too late."
 
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Peter Parka

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Hell why stop there if they think it's directly responsible for guns deaths. Make it compulsary for people to carry anti tank missiles around and the deaths will probably get even less! :rolleyes:
 

Pudding Time

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Hell why stop there if they think it's directly responsible for guns deaths. Make it compulsary for people to carry anti tank missiles around and the deaths will probably get even less! :rolleyes:

What was the point of this post?

Time after time evidence is shown that gun bans increase crime. What has to happen for you to believe gun bans are not a solution to violent crime?
 

hubersrj

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Honestly, if you guys knew about them fine folks to the North of me, you'd shit yourselves. There are more militias in Michigan than any other state right now. MY in-laws, residents or Ypsilanti, MI, say that the further North in the state that you go, the more you're taking your life into your own hands...IF you don't agree with the locals...if you agree with them and their thoughts, you'll really enjoy it up there.

Peter, I'm thinking you may not fit in, lol!!!!!
 

Pudding Time

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No it dosen't.

Really?

Australia bans guns. Crime goes through the roof.

Washington DC has a gun ban, crime is rediculous there. Yet only 20 miles away in northern virginia, there is hardly any crime.

New York City has a gun ban. Crime is retarded there.

California has a gun ban. Lovely place, shame about the crime.

And now this article about Michigan.

Gun bans only take the guns out of the hands of good people. Criminals don't obtain guns the proper legal way.
 

dt3

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Hell why stop there if they think it's directly responsible for guns deaths. Make it compulsary for people to carry anti tank missiles around and the deaths will probably get even less! :rolleyes:
So you choose not to believe these scientific statistics that disagree with what you believe?
 

Peter Parka

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I've already been through the stats enough times so I can't be bothered to go through them again when I've already proved my point enough times on this. Then again it's pointless trying to argue the point here when some members are so deluded they believe carrying cigarettes around is more dangerous than carrying a gun around!:smiley24:
 

All Else Failed

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Statistics for this particular subject aren't THAT reliable, since they rely heavily on the kind of culture in question. So if you have lower gun crime rates over here after, lets say, banning guns outright, and another country has the opposite findings, that just shows that gun crime is more of a regional or cultural thing more than the guns themselves.
 

Pudding Time

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Statistics for this particular subject aren't THAT reliable, since they rely heavily on the kind of culture in question. So if you have lower gun crime rates over here after, lets say, banning guns outright, and another country has the opposite findings, that just shows that gun crime is more of a regional or cultural thing more than the guns themselves.

Another way you can look at it is that there are far more instances of crime getting worse once a gun ban is instated, than there is of the opposite.
 

dt3

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I've already been through the stats enough times so I can't be bothered to go through them again when I've already proved my point enough times on this. Then again it's pointless trying to argue the point here when some members are so deluded they believe carrying cigarettes around is more dangerous than carrying a gun around!:smiley24:
It's not about arguing. It's not about what other people believe. Right here is concrete evidence that carrying weapons does not cause more crime. But for some reason you refuse to amend your views or take this evidence into consideration. You merely comeback with a flippant comment about Anti-Tank missiles that has absolutely no bearing on the article.

What would it take for you to consider that carrying weapons doesn't make life any more dangerous?

Statistics for this particular subject aren't THAT reliable, since they rely heavily on the kind of culture in question. So if you have lower gun crime rates over here after, lets say, banning guns outright, and another country has the opposite findings, that just shows that gun crime is more of a regional or cultural thing more than the guns themselves.
I see what you're saying. I wouldn't dream of extrapolating Michigan's results and saying France or Japan should adopt the laws. But, I think Michigan is a pretty fair representation of a lot of our United States.
 

GraceAbounds

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Not in the US?

So there is a case here in the US where a city or state has banned guns and crime has dropped dramatically?

Another way you can look at it is that there are far more instances of crime getting worse once a gun ban is instated, than there is of the opposite.

I misread your post Pudding Time. Sorry 'bout that. :)
 

GraceAbounds

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It's not about arguing. It's not about what other people believe. Right here is concrete evidence that carrying weapons does not cause more crime. But for some reason you refuse to amend your views or take this evidence into consideration. You merely comeback with a flippant comment about Anti-Tank missiles that has absolutely no bearing on the article.

What would it take for you to consider that carrying weapons doesn't make life any more dangerous?
:homo:
 

Peter Parka

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Nothing would make me think that Joe publics carrying around guns would make things safer, it just dosen't make any sense, which is why I'm going to leave this particular thread now. I've repeated my reasons time and time again and argued them and people get so desperate to prove otherwise that they start actually trying to compare cigarettes to guns! I really don't think there's a lot else to say! If you want to walk around in the wild west, go right ahead, I'm just glad, personally, that I live somewhere where gun crime isn't anywhere near as bad.;)
 
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