Is evil just a tool against God’s boredom?

[Codrus]

I don't believe in God but I am interested in religion. I even teach a children's religious education class at church.

:humm:

 

[doombug]

No argument.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or it's all man's fault.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

If you look around it is clear that humans are free willed beings with the ability to make choices. That makes us capable of doing evil intentionally or unintentionally. Christians claim we were created as such so that those who choose to love God do so by their own will. Love given unvoluntarily is not love.

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

Humans were created with the nature to choose. The "falling" comes as a result human's own choices. God did not create us as puppets because He wanted creatures who would love Him by choice. Without evil how can humans make a choice?

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that it is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.

Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.

Dealing with evil is our responsibility and we do so by choosing good.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.

I agree here. Evil is a word that humans have assigned to something. Much like other things in our universe evil could be considered a condition rather than an actual thing that was created. Many assign the word evil simply to things they don't like. That alone doesn't make it evil.

Evil then is only human to human.

I don't know about "only" human to human but that is definitely a big part of it. This is why evil isn't really a thing to be created because evil is manifested. But if God eliminated evil in our existence then there would have to be changes made to humans that would turn us into robots. What would be the purpose of that?

As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.

Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.

You are wrong here. Competition doesn't always create a victim so it isn't really evil. This is only how you choose to view it. I don't see how cooperation can be seen as always good either. If people cooperate with each other in order to murder others how could that be good?

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Evil exists for our survival? Nonsense.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should see that what Christians see as something to blame, we should see that what we have, deserves a huge thanks where it belongs. God or nature.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be.

Regards
DL

So you are saying instead of these people who posts pictures of starving children should not complain but should be thankful these things exist? I think it is natural for people to find human suffering disturbing. This moves people toward doing something about it. The biggest problem with things like this is too many people just accept it as reality and do nothing. If people followed to bible, including many Christians, and decided to "Love thy neighbor" there wouldn't be as much evil and suffering in the world as there is today.

So it looks like GIA's solution to evil and suffering is to just accept it and be thankful.

 

[Tuffdisc]

I don't believe in God but I am interested in religion. I even teach a children's religious education class at church.

I find that really strange, you have nothing but disparaged religion in all its forms, yet you teach religion? Its like the blind leading the blind. Something I can't comprehend you doing. I find it a strange contradiction that you don't believe in God/religion, yet you teach it, totally unbelievable. If I were to find out where you "taught" religion and told them, I don't think you would be in a job for very long. And if you went to deny you don't believe in religion/God, I would happily point them here.

 

[doombug]

I find that really strange, you have nothing but disparaged religion in all its forms, yet you teach religion? Its like the blind leading the blind. Something I can't comprehend you doing. I find it a strange contradiction that you don't believe in God/religion, yet you teach it, totally unbelievable. If I were to find out where you "taught" religion and told them, I don't think you would be in a job for very long. And if you went to deny you don't believe in religion/God, I would happily point them here.

If you disagree with him then call him a "troll". That seems to be the protocol around here.

 

[Tuffdisc]

If you disagree with him then call him a "troll". That seems to be the protocol around here.

Yea, its that or its "you're homophobic" etc....

 

[Panacea]

As far as I've seen, only people who act like homophobes and trolls have been called homophobes and trolls :24:

In any case, I wouldn't come down on BornReady, he has been incredibly patient and diplomatic in these discussions since I've joined this forum, often giving undeserved benefit of the doubt and always being open to discussion and rethinking his stances.

One doesn't have to be religious to teach religious studies, one just has to have knowledge of religious studies. It seems BR does.

 

[Tuffdisc]

As far as I've seen, only people who act like homophobes and trolls have been called homophobes and trolls :24:

In any case, I wouldn't come down on BornReady, he has been incredibly patient and diplomatic in these discussions since I've joined this forum, often giving undeserved benefit of the doubt and always being open to discussion and rethinking his stances.

One doesn't have to be religious to teach religious studies, one just has to have knowledge of religious studies. It seems BR does.

Not quite true, there is a saying it takes one to know one, go figure

 

[Panacea]

Not quite true, there is a saying it takes one to know one, go figure

I'm certainly not a homophobe; I suppose troll is debatable. Like a troll ninja, yanno?...slicing deftly through the primordial ooze of bad arguments with indomitable wit.

 

[porterjack]

I'm certainly not a homophobe; I suppose troll is debatable. Like a troll ninja, yanno?...slicing deftly through the primordial ooze of bad arguments with indomitable wit.

you are the people's cynic, slice and slash away braveheart

 

[Panacea]

you are the people's cynic, slice and slash away braveheart

See he gets me.

 

[Tuffdisc]

I'm certainly not a homophobe; I suppose troll is debatable. Like a troll ninja, yanno?...slicing deftly through the primordial ooze of bad arguments with indomitable wit.

There is no point in calling me a homophobe, since people on here really cannot define homophobia, people on here keep repeating the same verse when trying to use against me because the bible said this {insert verse}, when in actual fact the Bible mentions other sins. Even homosexuals respect Christian's beliefs.

 

[porterjack]

See he gets me.

only since i saw your tits

 

[doombug]

In any case, I wouldn't come down on BornReady..................... always being open to discussion and rethinking his stances.

I agree with this. BornReady is one of the few open minded people here. At least he doesn't look for cowardly excuses to not discuss something.

I'm certainly not a homophobe; I suppose troll is debatable. Like a troll ninja, yanno?...slicing deftly through the primordial ooze of bad arguments with indomitable wit.

Cowering in the dark does not make you a "ninja".

only since i saw your tits

Well I knew it couldn't be her posts that gets attention. hahaha! :24:

 

[BornReady]

I find that really strange, you have nothing but disparaged religion in all its forms,

I try to challenge people to think about their beliefs and I'm not shy about telling people what I think. But I don't expect everyone to agree with me. My best friend is a devout catholic. I'm not against religion. I am against intolerance and trying to force your beliefs on someone else, especially children.

If I were to find out where you "taught" religion and told them, I don't think you would be in a job for very long. And if you went to deny you don't believe in religion/God, I would happily point them here.

I go to a Unitarian Universalist church. About a fourth of the members are atheists. The children's religious education director knows I'm an atheist. One of the other teachers is an atheist too. Right now I'm teaching a class on social justice. None of the teachers talk much about God to the children. That is a personal matter we leave up to them. Some believe and some don't.

Well I knew it couldn't be her posts that gets attention.

Unfortunately I have not seen her tits. But I can vouch for the high quality of her posts. She is brilliant.

 

[doombug]

....misrepresents the bible by who's standards? the bible is a giant poem that has been re-written by king after king to suit what leader sat during which rein, including popes, bishops and anyone wanting to hold control of the ignorant masses of the time. Thankfully not all of us are still lost in the fantasy world of this fictional book called the bible.

I see no response to the question I asked. I really doubt this person knows how the bible came about and is just parroting something they heard. The proof is there when a question is asked and they scurry away. The truth seems to have that effect on some people, alot of people here though. Everyone wants to post their opinion without having to explain it....tragic.

 

[Tuffdisc]

I try to challenge people to think about their beliefs and I'm not shy about telling people what I think. But I don't expect everyone to agree with me. My best friend is a devout catholic. I'm not against religion. I am against intolerance and trying to force your beliefs on someone else, especially children.



I go to a Unitarian Universalist church. About a fourth of the members are atheists. The children's religious education director knows I'm an atheist. One of the other teachers is an atheist too. Right now I'm teaching a class on social justice. None of the teachers talk much about God to the children. That is a personal matter we leave up to them. Some believe and some don't.



Unfortunately I have not seen her tits. But I can vouch for the high quality of her posts. She is brilliant.

I am against shoving religion and forcing it unto people, just as much as I am against Richard Dawkins for forcing atheism to everyone. Christians do not believe in forcing down their beliefs on children, did Christ ever force religion to the masses? Happy are those who (Sermon on the Mount).....etc, I would hardly ever call that forcing on 5000+ people. I know there are certain sector of people who do that, but I am for one are not to judge them, but to judge their actions to whether it is Christian or not

 

[doombug]

Unfortunately I have not seen her tits. But I can vouch for the high quality of her posts. She is brilliant.

Nah, BornReady your posts are much better. I haven't seen anything from her that is impressive in the least. She has had some posts that were headed in an interesting direction but then fell apart. Besides if she was that "brilliant" she would have chimed in long before now with something interesting. She definitely has you fooled. If you could point me in the direction of some posts that show her "brilliance" I would appreciate it. It looks more like group think is the order of the day around here. If you don't agree with everyone you are out.

 

[Minor Axis]

I see no response to the question I asked.

This is your typical reply. Generally speaking you are blind or a troll. For the moment I'll give you a smidgen benefit of doubt and say this is the most successful, well orchestrated troll-like action I have ever witnessed in these forums. Your success is that people are still engaging you. Eventually they all get sick of non-productive exchanges (with you). Whether you intend to troll or not is unknown 100%. But if this is how your are in real life I pity Mrs. Doombug if there is one.

To clarify for other OTZ members before they get tired of your BS: You ask, people give you their reasoning, but the extent of your displayed intellect is ignoring the answer, repeating the same question again, asking for proof, and rarely expressing any opinion on a subject. Maybe you are too scared to go on record in fear that you'll be pinned down.

I'm not scared to debate you. I've been doing it for over a month, but from an intellectual standpoint, debating with you is a waste of time because you never give of yourself and you never acknowledge valid points when they are counter to your thinking. The extent of your intellect is a glorified "huh?"

 

[Greatest I am]

Could it be God is not almighty? Traditionally we have thought of God that way. But, I agree with you, such a being doesn't seem to exist. On the other hand, there are many believers who draw strength and comfort from God or at the very minimum from a belief in him. Is it possible to reconcile these two positions? I think so. Maybe the believers are right, God exists. And maybe the unbelievers are right too, God is not almighty.

Maybe God would end suffering in the world if he could but he can't. Maybe his power is limited to working in the heart of men and women.

Good try at reconciling men who can think.
Unfortunately, once a believer joins the faith group. he is lost to reason and logic.
You are exactly right as to how a God would work.
Through mankind and not through his own efforts.
We are not God's make work project and are to stand alone. As it should be.
Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

He has yet to answer my requests to show how he reaches his conclusions and if you think he quotes actual doctrine, other than his own, you don't know much about the subjects he posts about. He completely misrepresents the bible and I find that to be dishonest.

If true. Show an example.

Regards
DL