Interesting Thought

[valley]

I saw you answer in regards to this question:

Originally Posted by val
God obviously thought creation was necessary otherwise, we would not be here. God does not do unnecessary things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre
Do you have any scriptural evidence for the fact the God never does unnecessary things?

Your answer followed so I thought this was your answer to the question of "God never does unnecessary things."

Gotcha.

My answer was meant to prevent Andre from cherry-picking my statements. I wanted to redirect him back to his original premise.

If you'll notice, right below the verse I posted, I made a statement regarding why I believe that God does not do unnecessary things.

 

[Minor Axis]

The Case for Christianity
Stand to Reason: Christianity as the Best Explanation
The Historicity of the New Testament

Enjoy. Lots of good stuff for any of you "logic junkies" to consider while reading.

Unfortunately I'd have to buy this book, The Case for Christianity. I am willing to read something logical about religion if it is possible to be truly logical about it. As you know I have my doubts.

Christianity as the Best Explanation makes so many assumptions about what is logical and what is "accepted" it did not really sway me. I assure you I did not start reading it hoping it would disappoint me. For example the quote sentence below, all assumptions are based on human rationality and logic. The author disqualifies Eastern religions because they deny rationality and logic. When something is clearly beyond our comprehension, why then must if fall within our perception of logic and rationality? You know as religious people have a tendency of saying it is "beyond our comprehension". It must sound like I'm now making a case against logic, but I'm just keeping options open. Bottom line, I currently see no way to discuss this issue logically, only faithfully. Nothing else in this article really sounds like a fact to me. I'd be happy to be mistaken.

Most of the stuff that people in these forums are picking on are quotes from the Bible and origination of holy laws as derived from religious documents. The Bible is a very poor document to try to prove the existence of the Christian God imo.

Christianity as the Best Explanation
Logical consistency seems to be more "cut and dry" than the other two criteria. Logic is a natural function of human minds and is universally practiced. In fact, the universality of logic itself needs to be explained in a religious worldview. Many religious beliefs can be dismissed at the outset because they fail this first criterion, for example eastern religions that deny rationality and logic. They not only cannot account for logic, they fail the test of rationality since they hold contradictory beliefs.

 

[Andre]

Isaiah 45:18


For thus says the LORD,
Who created the heavens,
Who is God,
Who formed the earth and made it,
Who has established it,
Who did not create it in vain,
Who formed it to be inhabited:

Your original statement was that "if God is self-sufficient then creation was unnecessary". The verse I just gave shows that He did not create it in vain..He had a purpose, a reason for it.

God does not do unnecessary things because He is God. The very idea that God makes decisions that are unnecessary is absurd to me, especially when you try to say that all of creation was unnecessary...

Minor Axis answered this well (from my perspective):

This quote implies that God created the Earth for a purpose. It does not prove in a scriptural sense, that God does not do unnecessary things.

BTW, I don't regard scriptures as proof.

And I can think of many things I do "for a purpose" that are "unnecessary". Are you now claiming valley, the creation was NECESSARY? By necessary I mean "had to be done".

Well I have spent a long time examining my faith. I've asked many questions and have looked for answers. It makes sense to me in a logical way. I suppose I could write a 10,000 word essay on why my faith is logical...but there are others who have already written out a logical defense for Christianity.

Well I have spent a long time examining my faith. I've asked many questions and have looked for answers. It makes NO sense to me in a logical way. I suppose I could write a 10,000 word essay on why your faith is illogical...but there are others who have already written out a logical refutation of Christianity.

My answer was meant to prevent Andre from cherry-picking my statements. I wanted to redirect him back to his original premise.

I do not believe I have swayed from my original premise, which was:

God is supposedly sufficient unto himself and is omniscient. Therefore there is no demonstrable NEED for creation to exist at all, and God was fully aware of all of the heinous and despicable acts that would occur on Earth before he even created it. Yet he went ahead with it anyway. And not only that! But supposedly billions of souls that did not need to be created at all will spend all of eternity in painful torment - something he also knew and something that was unnecessary.

I have accepted for the sake of argument that there may be some kind of "hidden blessing" in despicable acts of violence against innocent people - because I am only human, and cannot appreciate the true good or evil of an earthly act in the way God would be able to.

So I have dropped that line of thinking - admitted our earthly experiences and pain may be completely inconsquential in relation to eternity - but that leaves the rather glaring issue of people suffering an eternity of torment in hell, when God did not need them to exist in the first place as far as I can tell.


I must say valley, that I can't see how you would claim to have any idea about whether I have made my mind up on this issue. Indeed you asked me elsewhere to clarify for you whether I was a strict atheist. I responded briefly but honestly in an attempt to assure you I am seeking the truth, and am not against the idea of God existing. Yet it seems from where I sit that if I don't agree with you feel that I have already made up my mind. I can assure you that is not the case - you are merely failing to convince me of anything.

And conversely, when trying to discuss matters such as there with Christians I find it is the reverse which is true. Indeed "making up your mind without being able to back up you beliefs with evidence" is surely a component of faith?

 

[valley]

well gentlemen, I guess I will withdraw from this argument. I dont believe that I am going to convince anyone here of anything. If you cannot accept the basic concept that God is perfect then its no wonder that you continue to wrestle with these questions of yours. For me, there is a settled assurance of Who God is so I dont have the same struggle. I wish you well and hope you find your answers some day.

So go in peace. I'm sure i'll see yous again in another thread here in the religious section! Until then...........

 

[valley]

 

[Chieftan]

I hate religion, it divides people. If god would just come down and tell us what to do, but no. Thats why their being no god is most logic. And if their is no god, guess what, forums like this form up to debate because only humans can speak for god.

 

[GraceAbounds]

So I have dropped that line of thinking - admitted our earthly experiences and pain may be completely inconsquential in relation to eternity - but that leaves the rather glaring issue of people suffering an eternity of torment in hell, when God did not need them to exist in the first place as far as I can tell.

I plan on addressing this Andre. I have not forgotten it, I have just been too busy with other things to type it out with the attention it deserves.

 

[Minor Axis]

If you cannot accept the basic concept that God is perfect then its no wonder that you continue to wrestle with these questions of yours.

Wrestling with questions is good if they have not been satisfactorily answered, wouldn't you say? This is the heart of the debate. You accept a Christian God and that he is perfect based on a feeling. There may be those who are easily swayed by stories of faith because they need reassurance in their lives, you can convince them.

But since there is no evidence that establishes the nature of existence after physical death or the nature of God, everyone ultimately goes on their feelings/faith. If I don't feel it, I don't feel it. Please don't hold it against me. I'd say lack of evidence and and an absentee God is the problem and if there is a God, I hold him 100% responsible for a broken relationship with mankind.

The primary reasons why people have problems with specific religious beliefs:
1) Source documentation is suspect (manipulated, edited, no ability to verify)
2) Human's tendency to manipulate others.
3) Absentee God- Except direct interaction might not help either. There are so many Star Trek episodes where technically superior beings are posing as Gods, I would not know what to believe.
4) Coerced to believe based on only a feeling you may or may not have? And in many cases condemned if you don't believe.

 

[Andre]

well gentlemen, I guess I will withdraw from this argument. I dont believe that I am going to convince anyone here of anything. If you cannot accept the basic concept that God is perfect then its no wonder that you continue to wrestle with these questions of yours. For me, there is a settled assurance of Who God is so I dont have the same struggle. I wish you well and hope you find your answers some day.

God is perfect - therefore everything that has happened was necessary and is also good. Very comforting. Tell that to the damned.

Thank you for attempting to address this anyway, and I can assure you that you are in very good company for failing - it is not your fault - God has not provided you with the answer. But if I was in your position I would suggest that God is omnipotent and can therefore commit infinite acts which are logical and illogical at the same time.

 

[Andre]

Back on topic - I think Jesus was intended to be "a sacrifice" - neither God nor Jesus sacrificed much - that is not the point.

The penalty for sin had to be paid with innocent blood in a sacrificial offering. This was to fulfil the Law. It does not imply that Jesus suffered intensely or that God the Father was pained by this. Indeed Jesus' life and sufferring was likely inconsequential to them both on a purely personal level. That is not the point at all. The point was fulfilling and ending the Law.

 

[All Else Failed]

Dying then coming back as good as knew isn't sacrificing anything.

 

[valley]

God is perfect - therefore everything that has happened was necessary and is also good. Very comforting. Tell that to the damned.

Do I see sarcasm in you, Andre?

You took me to task for my bad behavior in post #29 for saying "I agree" when I did not agree...now here you are saying "very comforting" when you dont mean it either. Does anyone else see a "double standard" here?

Thank you for attempting to address this anyway, and I can assure you that you are in very good company for failing - it is not your fault - God has not provided you with the answer.

well I did give you an answer...you just do not believe it so there is nothing more that I can say to convince you.

But if I was in your position I would suggest that God is omnipotent and can therefore commit infinite acts which are logical and illogical at the same time.

What you just said reminds me of the question "if God can do anything, can He make a rock too big for Him to carry?' Its a nonsensical. If God is all-knowing then everything makes sense and nothing is illogical to Him. It may be illogical to humans but thats because we are not God.

 

[Andre]

Do I see sarcasm in you, Andre?

You took me to task for my bad behavior in post #29 for saying "I agree" when I did not agree...now here you are saying "very comforting" when you dont mean it either. Does anyone else see a "double standard" here?

There is no double standard. You were putting words in my mouth whereas I was being obviously sarcastic in a very serious manner from my own perspective, in an effort to HIGHLIGHT the eternal plight of perhaps billions of souls.

well I did give you an answer...you just do not believe it so there is nothing more that I can say to convince you.

The only answer I recall is the biblical quotation that the world was not created in vain. That is not an answer unless you believe the bible to be an error free account of the word of God.

What you just said reminds me of the question "if God can do anything, can He make a rock too big for Him to carry?' Its a nonsensical. If God is all-knowing then everything makes sense and nothing is illogical to Him. It may be illogical to humans but thats because we are not God.

Good - it was intended to remind you of that. So if God is all knowing 1+1=2 and 1+1=12 and 1+1=345743? I don't understand. In fact when Jesus is described as The Word in John it is a translation of the Greek term Logos, which denotes pure reason and has even been interpreted as logic.

Perhaps if God is all-knowing he has a perfect understanding of what is logical and what is not logical, as opposed to everything being logical?