Interesting Thought

[GraceAbounds]

I agree with every word Valley has posted.

 

[Andre]

OK valley - let me make it nice and simple - you claimed to AGREE with me and then put words in my mouth. That is not agreeing. If you don't agree, as you said here:

And my point was to basically say "speak for yourself" because I do not agree with you!

Then say I DON'T agree with you - not I AGREE with you. Simple.

You presented a question? Where may I ask did you do that?

So sorry - here is everything I said framed simply WITH A QUESTION MARK (to make it an OFFICIAL question).

If God is self-sufficient creation is unecessary.
If God is ominpotent (all-knowing) he was fully aware of every implication of creating this system.

If creation is unecessary and God had perfect knowledge of the millions of negatives outcomes that would occur the question is:

How is creation anything more than a worthless crime?

REMEMBER - you cannot reference OUR importance in answering, becuase that would make God less than self-sufficent. You cannot claim that God can learn anything from our existence because he is omnisicent.

I should have left the wink out, though. I will try to remember not to do it again (with you).

I disagree - you had no way of knowing it would bother me - so please (notice that word) just refrain. If you don't I can deal - it just annoys me and is irrelevant when considering the strength of your words. I don't think you are in a superior position or ever have the right to feel shocked - defend your idea of God if you can.


EDIT: Do not dismiss the seriousness of this question - it has remained unanswered for 15 years of my life (including by pastors) and is the reason I left the church.

 

[valley]

OK valley - let me make it nice and simple - you claimed to AGREE with me and then put words in my mouth. That is not agreeing. If you don't agree, as you said here:


Then say I DON'T agree with you - not I AGREE with you. Simple.

Why are you explaining this to me? I know what I did and so do you...I apologized so lets move on.

If God is self-sufficient creation is unecessary.

How do you know this?

If God is ominpotent (all-knowing) he was fully aware of every implication of creating this system.

That is incorrect. Omnipotent means "all-powerful". Omniscient means "all-knowing".

I agree that He was fully aware of the implications of the creation that He made. I also have to assume that since He is omniscient, and we are not, that His reason, logic and will transcends our puny human reason, logic and will. Would you agree with that statement?

If creation is unecessary......

Your logic does not follow. God obviously thought creation was necessary otherwise, we would not be here. God does not do unnecessary things.

REMEMBER - you cannot reference OUR importance in answering, becuase that would make God less than self-sufficent. You cannot claim that God can learn anything from our existence because he is omnisicent.

I would never think that God can learn from mankind! Its a huge contradiction to say that God is omniscient and then say that He learns from us. I'm not sure why you would even anticipate that I might say such a thing.

I will argue that we are important to God though. God is self-sufficient and He does not need us in any way. But being self-sufficient does mean that He does not want us either. God is a loving God and He created us for His own pleasure. He doesnt need us but He wants us with Him because He loves us. It gives Him pleasure to show His love....we exist because He is generous and loving.

I don't think you are in a superior position
or ever have the right to feel shocked -
defend your idea of God if you can.

Firstly, I will admit that I believe my position is correct and yours in wrong but just to be clear, I do not believe myself to be personally superior in any way to you.

Secondly, who are you to tell me that I dont have the right to feel shocked regarding anything that I see people say? You are not the thought police and if I feel shocked, appalled or outraged over an idea that you toss out then I will challenge it in a manner that I deem appropriate.

Thirdly, I would have to feel that my idea of God was being attacked before I felt like I had to defend it. I dont feel like I have to defend what I believe to you or anyone else here. But I do have a desire to correct what I believe is faulty thinking and that is why I am here.

EDIT: Do not dismiss the seriousness of this question - it has remained unanswered for 15 years of my life (including by pastors) and is the reason I left the church.

I believe your mind is made up and you have no real desire to have an answer.

Try this question on for size if you would:

Do you accept the possibility that God not only exists, but that He also has the answer to your question?

 

[GraceAbounds]

If God is self-sufficient creation is unecessary.
If God is ominpotent (all-knowing) he was fully aware of every implication of creating this system.

If creation is unecessary and God had perfect knowledge of the millions of negatives outcomes that would occur the question is:

How is creation anything more than a worthless crime?

When something happens to you, how do you determine whether it is good or evil? Most will say that when it makes them feel good or gives them a sense of security that they would call it good. And if something causes them pain or costs them something they want then it is evil. This answer as to what is good and what is evil is obviously subjective when it comes to how man thinks. How confident can man be in their ability to discern what is indeed good or evil with what they think is good or evil changing over time and circumstance? And beyond that and even worse, there are billions of us each determining what is good and what is evil. So when our good and evil clash with our neighbor's good and evil, fights and arguments ensue and even wars break out.

Most people are not totally sure that they have any logical ground for deciding what is actually good or evil, except how something or someone affects them. It is all honestly rather self-serving and self-centered. Since man has determined good and evil even though it is subjective they have still chosen to become the judge of such matters. We play God in our independence which is what we got when Adam and Eve ate of the tree as the spiritual universe was ripped apart from the physical. It's sad because we were created for relationship, not independence. Evil is the absence of God. There is not an absence of God on this earth. There is evil in what we do as there is an absence of God in us whenever we draw upon ourselves instead of the Lord.

Many people wish for things they believe are good and when they get them realize they were actually evil/curses. And other people swear they are having evil/curses happen to them only to later look back at that time in their life and declare that it was actually a blessing that happened to them.

So the million of things you view as negatives, which may or may not be negatives as man's definition of good and evil is subjective, obviously is worth what is to come according to God.

 

[nTejas]

When something happens to you, how do you determine whether it is good or evil?

It's all good.......and then some. :nod:

 

[Minor Axis]

When something happens to you, how do you determine whether it is good or evil? Most will say that when it makes them feel good or gives them a sense of security that they would call it good. And if something causes them pain or costs them something they want then it is evil. This answer as to what is good and what is evil is obviously subjective when it comes to how man thinks. How confident can man be in their ability to discern what is indeed good or evil with what they think is good or evil changing over time and circumstance? And beyond that and even worse, there are billions of us each determining what is good and what is evil. So when our good and evil clash with our neighbor's good and evil, fights and arguments ensue and even wars break out.

I agree! But you lost me with Adam and Eve.

 

[Andre]

That is incorrect. Omnipotent means "all-powerful". Omniscient means "all-knowing".

I agree that He was fully aware of the implications of the creation that He made. I also have to assume that since He is omniscient, and we are not, that His reason, logic and will transcends our puny human reason, logic and will. Would you agree with that statement?

I used the wrong word accidentally - I know the meanings of the "omni-words" but thanks for answering my question despite the error.

IF God exists AND is omniscient, of course his reasoning would transcend ours. However basic rules of logic that we can see would still hold true from his perspective as well - e.g:

if A is B
and B is C
then A is C

That holds true no matter how intelligent you become.

Your logic does not follow. God obviously thought creation was necessary otherwise, we would not be here. God does not do unnecessary things.

I am glad you agree that God is unlikely to be engaged in unnecessary activities that could cause harm. Do you have any scriptural evidence for the fact the God never does unnecessary things? If not - feel free to drop that point anyway. Strange that my perception of this problem is a "problem beyond my understanding" and yet you are possessed of an intellect that can state "God obviously thought creation was necessary."

I believe your mind is made up and you have no real desire to have an answer.

Try this question on for size if you would:

Do you accept the possibility that God not only exists, but that He also has the answer to your question?

You are wrong. I believe that this is a genuine contradiction that implies that God either does not exist or possesses ability levels below those usually ascribed to him, or perhaps even that he may not be benevolent. I want this question answered - but I doubt it will be in any other way than "I have to just have faith" or "God's purposes are beyond my comprehension" - and neither of those answers satisfies in the slightest.

Yes I accept the possibility that God exists and if He did would undoubtedly be able to answer this question - maybe in a few seconds.

 

[Andre]

When something happens to you, how do you determine whether it is good or evil? Most will say that when it makes them feel good or gives them a sense of security that they would call it good. And if something causes them pain or costs them something they want then it is evil. This answer as to what is good and what is evil is obviously subjective when it comes to how man thinks. How confident can man be in their ability to discern what is indeed good or evil with what they think is good or evil changing over time and circumstance? And beyond that and even worse, there are billions of us each determining what is good and what is evil. So when our good and evil clash with our neighbor's good and evil, fights and arguments ensue and even wars break out.

Most people are not totally sure that they have any logical ground for deciding what is actually good or evil, except how something or someone affects them. It is all honestly rather self-serving and self-centered. Since man has determined good and evil even though it is subjective they have still chosen to become the judge of such matters. We play God in our independence which is what we got when Adam and Eve ate of the tree as the spiritual universe was ripped apart from the physical. It's sad because we were created for relationship, not independence. Evil is the absence of God. There is not an absence of God on this earth. There is evil in what we do as there is an absence of God in us whenever we draw upon ourselves instead of the Lord.

Many people wish for things they believe are good and when they get them realize they were actually evil/curses. And other people swear they are having evil/curses happen to them only to later look back at that time in their life and declare that it was actually a blessing that happened to them.

So the million of things you view as negatives, which may or may not be negatives as man's definition of good and evil is subjective, obviously is worth what is to come according to God.

OK - I will accept that - and I appreciate your answer - but I can't comprehend how an eternity of torment in hell could ever be seen as a blessing or beneficial to you.

 

[Zorak]

OK - I will accept that - and I appreciate your answer - but I can't comprehend how an eternity of torment in hell could ever be seen as a blessing or beneficial to you.

I know, I've been to Birmingham, it fucking sucked.

 

[Tim]

That's the part that actually turned me from a life long believer to an unbeliever.

It's when I was able to sort of, kind of grasp what an eternity in hell actually means. Because just when you think you fully understand/comprehend what forever means, you aren't even close. And to damn anyone to an eternity of anything just doesn't make sense. Because if you believe the bible is true and there is a god that damns you to an eternity of unimaginable pain and suffering for not believing in him, then that's just messed up. Especially since the majority of mankind would be there. What kind of messed up god would be so cruel? How is that just? A god of love? My ass.

There is no god

 

[BadBoy@TheWheel]

I have read the Bible multiple times in my adult life.

Here's my issue with it, and subsequently the issue with the O/P:

I think there's gaps in the Bible, and if you have an ounce of intellect, you'll agree.

I guess my question is, what is being hidden? Why can't the whole story be told?

What are they trying to hide? (by they I mean the Catholics, cause they have the scrolls, I just know it and they got a story to tell, but I think in orde to do so it would undo Catholocism and we can't have that can we?)

Essentially, faith is just that. Faith

Nobody here has ANY PHYSICAL PROOF WHATSOEVER that the crucifiction ever happened, if you think you do, I'm all ears.

Or in this case eyes.

 

[Minor Axis]

I am glad you agree that God is unlikely to be engaged in unnecessary activities that could cause harm. Do you have any scriptural evidence for the fact the God never does unnecessary things? If not - feel free to drop that point anyway. Strange that my perception of this problem is a "problem beyond my understanding" and yet you are possessed of an intellect that can state "God obviously thought creation was necessary."

That is the problem when debating who/what God is, the religious folks are going to give you these matter of fact statements "God exists" mixed in with "beyond our comprehension". Logical questions can never be answered with faith based answers, but the devote try to do it consistently. It's as if we are speaking two different languages.

If you love someone, it is far easier to give your own life for them rather than to throw them under the bus. To sacrifice the one you love is by far the greater sacrifice.

Actually sacrificing a loved one instead of yourself, is usually viewed as selfish and cowardly, at least in human terms. I admit with God and heaven, seems to change that dynamic. But when you know Jesus went to heaven to live the good life, it does not seem like much of a sacrifice on God's part does it?

There is no god

There may not be the traditional Christian God as we know it, but consider the possibility of something, a force, a spiritual existence, an ever-after. It's just as possible as oblivion! The good thing about being Atheist or Agnostic, you have nothing to loose if your wrong. But the Christians have this "burning in hell" monkey on their back. If they're wrong, then it's marsh mellow time!

 

[Minor Axis]

What if God is your imagination? Then what?

If thats true then I will die and turn into nothingness. How about you....what will you do when you find out God is real and you have to face Him on judgment day?

I'll beg for mercy tell him it's his fault for being so elusive. His "hiding in the clouds" method of Godliness, did not connect, and who made me anyway?- he did of course. As a father, I expect him to make an appearance more than every couple of thousand years. Being a neglected son, so it's my fault?? Then I'll find our how loving of a God he really is.

Seriously why does it have to be God or nothing? In the spectrum of belief, there is the Christian God out on one limb and the Atheists out on the other. There could be something in between. The odds are against you. I bet you a dollar we are going to be surprised when we pass over and if it's the Christian God just as you said, I'll give you $10. If you agree, I'll look for you in the next existence to collect.

Typically when someone makes a logical statement such as "why did God set up the world this way", you get all these faith-based answers because they are the only answers that faithful can give.

LOL...faith is a given...everyone has faith in something! Faith in God does not automatically exclude logic and reason. Actually, it is built on logic.

Please explain your logic in logical terms. Just don't tell me how you know or you feel, ok?

There are no logical factual answer to be found in this discussion.

Prove it.

It's not me, it's the devote who must express a logical factual answer about God to prove me wrong.

Here's a question for our religious scholars- Of all the religions in the world, how many of them threaten humans with eternal damnation for not believing? Is it common or just a Christian thing? And if believing is important, then why not make it easy to believe? Why force people to make glorified guesses based on flawed ancient religious documents (vetted by special interest groups), their hopes for salvation, and their emotions? If we were created smart by our maker, why not give us some credit with facts and not conjecture? (Ok, so that turned into several questions and I have asked them before but have not received a satisfactory answer.)

 

[valley]

Do you have any scriptural evidence for the fact the God never does unnecessary things?

[/quote]
Isaiah 45:18


For thus says the LORD,
Who created the heavens,
Who is God,
Who formed the earth and made it,
Who has established it,
Who did not create it in vain,
Who formed it to be inhabited:

Your original statement was that "if God is self-sufficient then creation was unnecessary". The verse I just gave shows that He did not create it in vain..He had a purpose, a reason for it.

God does not do unnecessary things because He is God. Man does unnecessary things because he doesnt always understand the situation or he doesnt have all of the information to be able to make the right decision at all times when he acts. The very idea that God makes decisions that are unnecessary is absurd to me, especially when you try to say that all of creation was unnecessary...I mean maybe you could make a better case for the necessity of mosquitoes or something like that but creation? Nope. I'm not buying it. But i'm sure you know that already.

 

[Minor Axis]

Isaiah 45:18


For thus says the LORD,
Who created the heavens,
Who is God,
Who formed the earth and made it,
Who has established it,
Who did not create it in vain,
Who formed it to be inhabited:

This quote implies that God created the Earth for a purpose. It does not prove in a scriptural sense, that God does not do unnecessary things.

BTW, I don't regard scriptures as proof because one day in my youth I was walking down a mountain road and out of a cave came this person, plainly dressed, with a glow around him (it might have been the weed he was smoking? just guessing). What struck me odd was the plainly dressed but beautiful woman on each arm escorting him.

"Behold" he said handing me this paper:

And the Lord sayeth,
Be marry and par-tay it up,
For you only live once as your current self,
And the good die young.

"Where did you get this?" I asked.
"My son, the Lord came to me in a dream and by my hand had me scribe this important message from the here-after."
Being not the gullible type, I was suspect of the origins of this document. A message from the Lord or some guy who was into partying? Or was this the Devil? But wait it was easy, the Lord never sends par-tay messages, but then...
"Ah yes" said the man, reading my mind, "The church has always kept secret the "par-tay" messages from the Lord."
The threesome turned back to the cave as I called out, "but what is your name?"
"They call me Bruce". And as I looked up, one of the women glanced over her shoulder and gave a "follow-me" gesture as I watched her hips sway back and forth. Oh the dilemmas we face as mere mortals!

The Dilemma:
1. Was this scripture real?
2. Was it temptation from the Devil?
3. Or was it the hallucination of a party animal?

A better person than I will have to decipher the meaning...

 

[valley]

I'll beg for mercy tell him it's his fault for being so elusive.

yeah well....good luck with that. According to the Bible, man is without excuse.

Please explain your logic in logical terms. Just don't tell me how you know or you feel, ok?

First, tell me why you want to know.

It's not me, it's the devote who must express a logical factual answer about God to prove me wrong.

Proving you wrong is not the reason that I am in this discussion.

Here's a question for our religious scholars- Of all the religions in the world, how many of them threaten humans with eternal damnation for not believing? Is it common or just a Christian thing? And if believing is important, then why not make it easy to believe? Why force people to make guesses based on imperfect ancient religious documents? If we were created smart by our maker, why not give us some credit with facts and not conjecture? Ok, so that turned into several questions.

well I do not consider myself a "religious scholar" so I will leave this question for them to answer.

 

[valley]

This quote implies that God created the Earth for a purpose. It does not prove in a scriptural sense, that God does not do unnecessary things.

Andre's original statement was this:

"If God is self-sufficient then creation was unnecessary"

Does the verse I gave refute his claim or is this a case of the original premise being altered in favor of a new tactic?

 

[Minor Axis]

Andre's original statement was this:

"If God is self-sufficient then creation was unnecessary"

Does the verse I gave refute his claim or is this a case of the original premise being altered in favor of a new tactic?

I saw you answer in regards to this question:

Originally Posted by val
God obviously thought creation was necessary otherwise, we would not be here. God does not do unnecessary things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre
Do you have any scriptural evidence for the fact the God never does unnecessary things?

Your answer followed so I thought this was your answer to the question of "God never does unnecessary things."

 

[Minor Axis]

yeah well....good luck with that. According to the Bible, man is without excuse.

Maybe the Bible got it wrong? You know the Bible as we know it was compiled by a group of crusty old men and edited with an agenda don't you?

First, tell me why you want to know.

It's just my desire to hear a logical reason, not faith based reason, why the Christian God exists as you think it does. I don't consider quoting scripture as logic.

Proving you wrong is not the reason that I am in this discussion.

Wait-just-a-minute, when I said there were no logical factual statements made in this tread regarding God, you told me to "prove it." The religious posters in this thread will actually prove me wrong by posting something that is logical and factual.

 

[valley]

It's just my desire to hear a logical reason, not faith based reason, why the Christian God exists as you think it does. I don't consider quoting scripture as logic.

Well I have spent a long time examining my faith. I've asked many questions and have looked for answers. It makes sense to me in a logical way. I suppose I could write a 10,000 word essay on why my faith is logical...but there are others who have already written out a logical defense for Christianity so I will refer you to them if you are interested:

The Case for Christianity
Stand to Reason: Christianity as the Best Explanation
The Historicity of the New Testament

Enjoy. Lots of good stuff for any of you "logic junkies" to consider while reading.