Interesting Thought

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Very descriptive title, eh? :24:

Anyways, let me set you up with the back story:

My mom has a lot of paperwork with my uncle's estate and all. Well, during mundane work, such as sorting the papers and whatnot, she turns on the radio (I now have a separate radio in my room, so I do not have to listen to her station(s) if I choose not to). Her station(s) are Christian in nature.

Afterwards, we were eating lunch, and I was listening to some promotional thing or other, and for some reason, my mind questioned the first few words of the passage that was being spoken, John 3:16.

John 3:16 (KJV) said:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I think I had the thought, because the radio personality stressed the "so" portion of the verse.

My thought:

If God loved the world so much, why did he not give himself?
 
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My mother brought up the Holy Trinity as well, but then again, how did God turn his back on himself?

:p

Trust me, we covered a few points that I cannot recall at the moment, but I am sure if we discuss this further, we will get around to them. I did not wish to engage in a debate with her, just to pose the question for pondering.
 

valley

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It's not a sacrifice and the crucifixtion story is just ridiculous on every level.

Maybe you should try it before you decide that its not a sacrifice. This is what you will go through: You'll be taken at night, brought before a kangaroo court in the middle of the night where they will find you guilty with no evidence whatsoever. You will be spit on, stripped naked, beaten until your face is unrecognizable, whipped until the flesh falls from your back and then you'll get a crown with 2 inch thorns jammed down onto your head. After that, you get to carry a few hundred pounds on your raw back. And this is all before you receive the actual penalty for the "crime" that you are actually innocent of.....

WARNING: DO NOT CONTINUE TO READ IF YOU ARE UNABLE TO HANDLE GRAPHIC DETAILS

You can gather from the secular accounts of crucifixion in Jesus' time to figure out the details about how the victims died: He would have been nailed to the cross as it lay flat on the ground. The nails were long iron spikes. The nails were actually driven through the wrist, not the palms, because the tendons and the bone structure of the hand cannot support the weight of the body. All that would happen is that the flesh between the bones would rip and the person would fall off. Feel the bones in your own hands....you will see the truth in this. But the wrist is strong enough to support the weight, even though the carpal bones would be shattered, causing extreme pain radiating up the entire arm, not to mention the nerves that would have been affected. Then a single nail was driven through both feet, causing the same kind of pain radiating up through both legs. After that, the soldiers would raise the cross and place it into a deep posthole. it would drop with a jarring blow causing the full weight of the person to fall on their already intensely painful wounds. You see, the Romans perfected the art of crucifixion in order to maximize the pain. They knew how to draw out the most suffering without the person being able to lose consciousness. There was no way of escaping the pain. One of the emperors of the time (Tiberius) preferred crucifixion because it prolonged the agony without the chance of relief by unconsciousness or death. He believed death was an escape so a quick death was not really a punishment unless the person felt as much pain as humanly possible before they died. Death came from slow suffocation. The body would hang in such a way that the diaphragm was severely constricted. In order to exhale, the person would have to push himself up with the feet so the diaphragm would have room to move. Ultimately, fatigue, intense pain or muscle atrophy would make it impossible for the victim to do this, and he would finally die from the lack of oxygen.

Here is the comments of a medical doctor (Truman Davis) who studied the physical effects of Jesus' crucifixion:
As the arms fatigue, great waves of cramps sweep over the muscles, knotting them in deep relentless throbbing pain. With these cramps comes the inability to push Himself upward. Hanging by His arms, the pectoral muscles are unable to act. Air can be drawn into the lungs but cannot be exhaled. Jesus fights to raise Himself in order to get even one short breath. Finally carbon dioxide builds up in His lungs and into the blood stream and the cramps partially subside. Spasmodically he is able to push Himself upward to exhale and bring in the oxygen....

Hours of this limitless pain, cycles of twisting, joint-rending cramps, intermittent partial asphyxiation, searing pain as tissue is torn from His lacerated back as he moves up and down against the rough timber; then another agony begins. A deep crushing pain in the chest as the pericardium slowly fills with serum and begins to compress the heart.

it is now almost over--the loss of tissue fluid has reached a critical level--the compressed heart is struggling to pump heavy, thick, sluggish blood into the tissues--the tortured lungs are making a frantic effort to gasp in small gulps of air. The markedly dehydrated tissues send their flood of stimuli to the brain....
you can read more of the account from here

This is why the Romans sometimes broke the legs below the knees on those who were crucified (something that they didnt do for Jesus, which happens to be a fulifllment of prophecy) breaking the legs hurried the process along and brought a quicker death (see John 19:31).


It may not seem like much of a sacrifice to you.....but i'd like to see you or anyone else willingly go through it to pay for someone else's crimes.
 

Tim

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Why is it so complicated?

Why would God who knows everything create a world of sin where he would then need to create his son so he can be tortured and die for us? He knew that when he gave us free will that we would choose the path of sin, so then why do it? Why create a world of pain and suffering, famine and disease, war and hatred when you knew about this before you even started? Did he not have the forethought to create perfection? Or is this what he wanted all along? Maybe he enjoys watching the pain and suffering over the centuries... :dunno

Or maybe it's time people realize that there is no God...

Just my .02........
 

valley

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Why would God who knows everything create a world of sin where he would then need to create his son so he can be tortured and die for us?

He knew that when he gave us free will that we would choose the path of sin, so then why do it? Why create a world of pain and suffering, famine and disease, war and hatred when you knew about this before you even started? Did he not have the forethought to create perfection? Or is this what he wanted all along? Maybe he enjoys watching the pain and suffering over the centuries... :dunno

Or maybe it's time people realize that there is no God...
WHOA..........back up a minute! :eek

God's foreknowledge is not in itself the cause of what happens in our lives. For instance, He knows right now what your thoughts will be when you read my words here...He knows the response you are going to give me, if any...but He is not going to interfere with your complete freedom to act as you wish to act towards me. You could reply and call me stupid...and I could turn around and blame God saying "God isnt real because if He were then people like Tim wouldnt exist in the world!" That is absurd to me. God is not a personal servant who runs around making everything perfect for us so we dont have to deal with anything that ever goes wrong in the world. According to your thinking, God is responsible for:

Murder
Rape
Child Molestation
Theft
Drug abuse
Violence
Greed
Gluttony
Selfishness
Blackmail
Tax Evasion
Insider Trading
etc....any and all evil that interferes with mans pursuit of happiness, right?

God did not make us as robots who can only obey, without any ability to think for ourselves. This world is the way that it is because mankind has screwed it up, not God....so lets not put the blame where it belongs!

Does He enjoy watching us kill and hate each other? What do you think? Come on...God is loving and He is faithful and He brings peace and joy to people in some of the worst conditions that would destroy them otherwise. There is testimony after testimony of people who have been able to survive terrible ordeals because of their faith in God. There is nothing sweeter than the feeling you get when you are troubled by something you cant control and you go to God in prayer and you feel an immediate relief from all of the stress. I am very grateful that God is there to comfort me when I need it. People let me down all of the time when I need them....God is always there. Always! :)

But I need to realize that there is no God? Its the other way around, my friend....you are the one who needs to realize that there is a God. And once you do that then I promise you that it wont be as complicated as you've made it out to be. :nod:

th_flower.gif
 

Breath

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If God loved the world so much, why did he not give himself?

If you love someone, it is far easier to give your own life for them rather than to throw them under the bus. To sacrifice the one you love is by far the greater sacrifice.
 

ssl

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If you love someone, it is far easier to give your own life for them rather than to throw them under the bus. To sacrifice the one you love is by far the greater sacrifice.

Interesting way to put it. Would not that say you love yourself more, however?

Well, it is quite a sacrifice, if you know they would not come back. However, if you are going to see them, it is just a temporary leave of absence. :)
 

Chieftan

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Of course it doesnt make sense, its the buy bull. everything valey is going on about comes from ink on paper. The same book that says a man lived in the belly of a fish for 3 days, and a man put a pair of all the animals on a boat. Does that sound like it make sense too.
 

Andre

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According to your thinking, God is responsible for:

Murder
Rape
Child Molestation
Theft
Drug abuse
Violence
Greed
Gluttony
Selfishness
Blackmail
Tax Evasion
Insider Trading
etc....any and all evil that interferes with mans pursuit of happiness, right?

According to my thinking as well - if also according to his thinking.

God is supposedly sufficient unto himself and is omniscient. Therefore there is no demonstrable NEED for creation to exist at all, and God was fully aware of all of the heinous and despicable acts that would occur on Earth before he even created it. Yet he went ahead with it anyway. We did not ask to be created or need to exist - the ULTIMATE responsibility is certainly not ours. (Please don't relate this to human's having children - we are not immortal or sufficient unto ourselves - doesn't match).

And not only that! But supposedly billions of souls that did not need to be created at all will spend all of eternity in painful torment - something he also knew and something that was unnecessary.

Of course that's rubbish - it simply doesn't make sense - so either God doesn't exist or our opinion on his nature is flawed in my opinion.
 

Minor Axis

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For instance, He knows right now what your thoughts will be when you read my words here...He knows the response you are going to give me

You know this based on... your faith?

This world is the way that it is because mankind has screwed it up, not God....so lets not put the blame where it belongs!

I do put the blame on mankind. But Tim is asking with complete control why set the world up like this? I view our existence as free form development and possibly unmonitored. If life on Earth is crap, with what control we have over nature, it's people who make our existence good or bad.

There is testimony after testimony of people who have been able to survive terrible ordeals because of their faith in God.

Faith in God does not prove there is a God, it proves you overcome when imagining the right incentives, a caring hand, and/or a reward in heaven.

There is nothing sweeter than the feeling you get when you are troubled by something you cant control and you go to God in prayer and you feel an immediate relief from all of the stress.

Maybe it was God or maybe your mind just helped itself.

Its the other way around, my friend....you are the one who needs to realize that there is a God.

What if God is your imagination? Then what?

I may be realizing something here and that is you can't talk people into believing in something because you believe in it. Just like you can't talk alcoholics out of drinking. Maybe a poor analogy, but they have to want to change. We all make our choices and form beliefs based on our personal experiences. Typically when someone makes a logical statement such as "why did God set up the world this way", you get all these faith-based answers because they are the only answers that faithful can give. There are no logical factual answer to be found in this discussion.
 

Tim

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If you love someone, it is far easier to give your own life for them rather than to throw them under the bus. To sacrifice the one you love is by far the greater sacrifice.

Really? A greater sacrifice?

How is it a greater sacrifice to create a being out of thin air, call him your son (which is not his son by any definition, it's not like he raised him from a child) and let him die for the "sins" of man? How does this make any sense to you people? Have you actually thought about it? God's son? How does he qualify to be his son?
 

Chieftan

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According to my thinking as well - if also according to his thinking.

God is supposedly sufficient unto himself and is omniscient. Therefore there is no demonstrable NEED for creation to exist at all, and God was fully aware of all of the heinous and despicable acts that would occur on Earth before he even created it.

true, if god is omniscient (all knowing), he should haveknown any outcome of evil regarding his apparent son that he so lovingly gave....... who he created......... then sacrificed.......to live in heaven. Imnot TRYING to bash faith in god but come on. and to add to this point, not just being omniscient, but isnt god flawless? Well id hate to be the bearer of bad news, but life he created, .......IS PRETTY FUCKED UP.
 

valley

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What if God is your imagination? Then what?
If thats true then I will die and turn into nothingness. How about you....what will you do when you find out God is real and you have to face Him on judgment day?

Typically when someone makes a logical statement such as "why did God set up the world this way", you get all these faith-based answers because they are the only answers that faithful can give.
LOL...faith is a given...everyone has faith in something! Faith in God does not automatically exclude logic and reason. Actually, it is built on logic. :)

There are no logical factual answer to be found in this discussion.
Prove it.
 

Andre

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I agree...your opinion of His nature is flawed. ;)

That's not what I said - I said OUR opinion of his nature.

I presented you with a tough question and I can only assume you have no repsonse to it.

I find your use of excessively emotive emoticons in intellectual discussions insulting and sarcastic. Please refrain from using them when responding to me.
 

valley

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That's not what I said - I said OUR opinion of his nature.
Yes, I know this. And my point was to basically say "speak for yourself" because I do not agree with you!

I presented you with a tough question and I can only assume you have no repsonse to it.
You presented a question? Where may I ask did you do that?

From where I am sitting, you presented me with a straw man argument, which you then attempted to tear down by applying an "either/or" solution to.

I find your use of excessively emotive emoticons in intellectual discussions insulting and sarcastic. Please refrain from using them when responding to me.
I am sorry Andre. Please forgive me for that. I meant to point out that I found your opinion to be flawed. I should have left the wink out, though. I will try to remember not to do it again (with you).
 
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