in six month we'll see the largest tax increases in history

[Tim]

In just six months,the largest tax hikes in the history of America will take effect.

Holy shit! The largest tax hike in the HISTORY of America!?

So we are going back to the 94% tax rate of the 1940's or the 91% of the 50's and 60's???

So what rate are we going to? 98% or maybe the government will take 100%... I sure as hell hope we don't have tax brackets in the 90% like we did in the 50's and 60's, you know, the dark years of America when business was nonexistent the country was in financial ruin and nobody started new businesses because taxes were so high... and we were basically a socialist/communist country.

 

[Tim]

Oh I get it, you were talking the greatest tax increase since Reagan... right?

 

[Maulds]

Dont argue, you've got it all wrong! If you're in the USA, being nice to more unfortunates = you are a Commie bastard!

:24::surrender

*crickets*

 

[Accountable]

Is this in reference to being able to visit an ER or pay out of pocket only?
With the ER my highest bill has been 23,000 (Thank goodness I had insurance) and after that 17,000 (that one too.)
I'm talking about people being able to afford medical care...doctor's visits, prescriptions, and hey- I'd love to be able to get into therapy again (Cause I'm batshit nuts xD) but most practices in my area won't even schedule you if you don't have insurance. They know people can afford that.

If there's a secret health insurance offering, please (PLEASE) inform me.

The secret is to live within your means. Few people can afford the privilege of therapy. That's why it's a privilege. You're bills would not have been as high as 17K & 23K if it weren't for insurance. Businesses can't pay more than customers can pay. Insurance makes customers able to pay far, far more than they could otherwise pay, so of course they charge more.
Even if a person has a catastrophic illness, our society would never kick them to the curb and watch them die. We're simply not built that way in America.

 

[edgray]

Even if a person has a catastrophic illness, our society would never kick them to the curb and watch them die. We're simply not built that way in America.

Did you not see Sicko*? Most Americans are surprised when they find out how many people die, even with insurance over there from being denied medical attention, surgery or medication. Not to mention the medical bankruptcies...







* yes I know it's a very typically biased MM film and we all love to hate him but it really sheds some light on what is really happening...

 

[Accountable]

Did you not see Sicko*? Most Americans are surprised when they find out how many people die, even with insurance over there from being denied medical attention, surgery or medication. Not to mention the medical bankruptcies...







* yes I know it's a very typically biased MM film and we all love to hate him but it really sheds some light on what is really happening...

I never watched it. Don't plan to. There's no way to tell what's truth & what's fiction in his films & I don't have the time to research every claim. Any actual fact is coincidental to the tripe he's spreading.

 

[edgray]

I never watched it. Don't plan to. There's no way to tell what's truth & what's fiction in his films & I don't have the time to research every claim. Any actual fact is coincidental to the trip he's spreading.

It might be worth a look - lots of mud has been slung but not much has stuck, he went out and found people, with insurance, who'd been denied treatment and care, and tries to get to the bottom of it. It's VERY touchy feely, and biased as you'd expect, but it's an eye opener for sure.

 

[Francis]

I never watched it. Don't plan to. There's no way to tell what's truth & what's fiction in his films & I don't have the time to research every claim. Any actual fact is coincidental to the trip he's spreading.

You need not research every claim.. Only one or two..

That said, there is no free ride in life, one must understand that. The bill must get paid somehow..

Most people think Canada's socialized health care is "free".. By far that is furthest from the truth..

 

[edgray]

You need not research every claim.. Only one or two..

That said, there is no free ride in life, one must understand that. The bill must get paid somehow..

Most people think Canada's socialized health care is "free".. By far that is furthest from the truth..

I don't think anyone could expect healthcare to be free. Over here in Spain it's paid for through our social security contributions. The nice thing is there's no limit to the treatment.

When I lived in Canada I had to pay 300$CAN for a consultation... certainly not free!!

 

[Francis]

I don't think anyone could expect healthcare to be free. Over here in Spain it's paid for through our social security contributions. The nice thing is there's no limit to the treatment.

When I lived in Canada I had to pay 300$CAN for a consultation... certainly not free!!

My contributions for Doctors / Hospital visits only is 102.00 CAD per month and would cover the basics.. If I get extended medical ( prescriptions, dental, ect ) it would add another $150.00 / month if I pay out of pocket or thru my company If we finally get a plan together about $50.00 for group..

But the limitations are extreme..

People must understand that companies are not in the business of losing money.. That goes for insurance companies, and that is why under a massive plan it works much better.. The more people on it, the lower the premiums..

 

[edgray]

My contributions for Doctors / Hospital visits only is 102.00 CAD per month and would cover the basics.. If I get extended medical ( prescriptions, dental, ect ) it would add another $150.00 / month if I pay out of pocket or thru my company If we finally get a plan together about $50.00 for group..

But the limitations are extreme..

People must understand that companies are not in the business of losing money.. That goes for insurance companies, and that is why under a massive plan it works much better.. The more people on it, the lower the premiums..

It's very true, that's how countries like Spain and the UK keep the cost per head so low. Though I might argue that a universal healthcare system wouldn't work in the US due to the country's size. From what I can gather, the consensus is that the federal govt simply isn't capable of running large scale efficient services.

by the way, we've totally derailed Retro's thread here...

 

[Meirionnydd]

The secret is to live within your means. Few people can afford the privilege of therapy. That's why it's a privilege. You're bills would not have been as high as 17K & 23K if it weren't for insurance. Businesses can't pay more than customers can pay. Insurance makes customers able to pay far, far more than they could otherwise pay, so of course they charge more.
Even if a person has a catastrophic illness, our society would never kick them to the curb and watch them die. We're simply not built that way in America.

Mental health services are actually quite important. There are a myriad of Psychological disorders out there and the social and economic effects of leaving them untreated are quite significant. Therapy isn't a 'privilege' reserved for only those who can afford it, it should be taken as seriously as other primary health care services.

In any case, there seems to be very persistent inequalities when it comes to health care. The poor and working classes, the least likely to be able to seek quality care, suffer from the most aliments. While the rich, having access to very good medical treatment if needed, are less likely to face medical complications in life.

I don't think anyone can seriously make the assertion that in the US, patients without insurance are simply let to rot, legally they are entitled to treatment. I just wouldn't want to see their hospital bill afterwards...

 

[Codrus]

Mental health services are actually quite important. There are a myriad of Psychological disorders out there and the social and economic effects of leaving them untreated are quite significant....

<-------living proof

 

[Minor Axis]

This country is slowly but surely (though much faster now that Obama is at the helm) moving towards a state of the government providing everything for you. Tax the rich, give to the poor (but be sure to take enough money for themselves), redistribute that wealth.

An excellent job of spouting alarmist conservative bullshit. There is only one thing that will save you, revolution.

No one in the USA, legally or illegally, are unable to get medical help. That's a myth spread by Washington control freaks and those who would profit massively by socialized medicine..

The first part is true. Anyone can walk into a hospital and be treated. They may end up sitting there for hours before they are seen. I have a self employed brother without health insurance and that is what he does. He is living on the edge with a family and can't afford it.

So it's a false impression to say that the new health bill is going to be wildly expensive. We are all ready paying for uninsured people. And it can be argued that if they have access to regular preventive health care, the end cost could be less or maybe be more expensive but with far greater results, greater productivity and a healthier economy. At some point, if you are smart, you (not you Accountable) will consider more than what it costs coming out of your pocket, but is the economy healthier? I realize this can be tough to consider while corporate forces are making a concerted effort to drive our overall standard of living into the toilet- another impact on our economy.

Mental health services are actually quite important. There are a myriad of Psychological disorders out there and the social and economic effects of leaving them untreated are quite significant. Therapy isn't a 'privilege' reserved for only those who can afford it, it should be taken as seriously as other primary health care services.

In any case, there seems to be very persistent inequalities when it comes to health care. The poor and working classes, the least likely to be able to seek quality care, suffer from the most aliments. While the rich, having access to very good medical treatment if needed, are less likely to face medical complications in life.

I don't think anyone can seriously make the assertion that in the US, patients without insurance are simply let to rot, legally they are entitled to treatment. I just wouldn't want to see their hospital bill afterwards...

A really excellent statement, I applaud you. A good conversation can always be had discussing the purpose and benefits of living in a society. Is it every man/woman for themselves, or do we benefit more by thinking as a group? There is a synergism that is gained by grouping together. The debate is where should the limit be? I fully back Minnesota's state sponsored health coverage for children. No child in Minnesota will go without medical because their parents can't afford it. I know for a fact there are forum members whose attitude is tough shit, that is just their lot in life. I don't want to pay for it. So the debate boils down to what the majority wants.

 

[JanieDough]

but isn't small business businesses over $250,000?
and what's the 10% bracket? I don't think I am even in that!

 

[Accountable]

So it's a false impression to say that the new health bill is going to be wildly expensive.

It's wildly unconstitutional. That's enough.

If the federal government provided brick homes with gilded doorways, and a new car every year, topped with on-demand catered meals and in-home healthcare, no matter how cool and helpful it would still be unconstitutional.

Liberty is more important.

The debate is where should the limit be?

At the margin of the Constitution

 

[Tim]

It's wildly unconstitutional. That's enough.

If the federal government provided brick homes with gilded doorways, and a new car every year, topped with on-demand catered meals and in-home healthcare, no matter how cool and helpful it would still be unconstitutional.

Liberty is more important.

Ok, you say wildly unconstitutional, but what do you base that on? If this is really true, then won't it be struck down when challenged in the courts? Don't you think this was looked at very closely by numerous lawyers, constitutional lawyers?

Instead of taking this tangent here. Go to this thread...

http://www.offtopicz.net/showthread.php?t=64602

 

[Minor Axis]

It's wildly unconstitutional. That's enough.

I am working on the My Constitutional Education thread. I realize in one of our former conversations, you may have posted it but if it is not too much of a burden, why is it unconstitutional? Thanks!

 

[Accountable]

We didn't want to derail this thread so Tim made a new one. Link is in Tim's previous post.

 

[retro]

He believes in tort reform (which would insure 50% of the uninsured)
and buying policies across state lines (which would insure the rest)

There you go, 100% coverage without the government take-over we have now. :24:

If you seriously believe that's all I've said, you've obviously not paid attention to anything I've ever written on the subject.