How Americans Continue to Relegate Themselves to Serfdom

[Johnfromokc]

This cartoon sums it up. We do not have universal health care in the U.S. - That's common knowledge. And many who would benefit the most from UHC fight it tooth and nail. They have been so brainwashed by the Limbaugh's Hannity's, Beck's, Boortz's, Coulter's and all the other right wing libertarian corporate asshats they listen to.

Just think how small business would benefit if health care was universal and the owners did not have to deal with the ever expensive group health insurance policies for their employees. But small business owners are often just like the lady in this cartoon - as they complain how difficult it is to pay for employee health plans.

We have a massive case of collective Cranial Rectumitus in the U.S. Why else would so many Americans continue to vote against their own best interests election after election?

 

[cam elle toe]

*doo doo doo doo* (Twighlight Zone) music

I was just reading through the old thread about our healthcare system you started a while back.

What hit me when reading it this time around is that practically NO-ONE....even read or acknowledged the posts from Gillby and I about our awesome health care. (I think you and Moonie were the only ones)

I think you guys are more interested in keeping your crap health care just so ya's have something to debate over.
Go have a read and see what I mean.


http://www.offtopicz.net/showthread...es-and-Healthcare-Compared-To-Australia/page6

 

[HK]

Despite all the problems we sometimes have with our NHS over here, I wouldn't swap it. The idea of having to go into hospital and then getting a hefty bill when you get home is horrifying.

 

[MoonOwl]

Reminds me of what I saw on Reddit today:





This is an uninsured man's bill for an overnight trip to the ER the other day.

As we are uninsured ourselves, this could be us too. I guess we could have continued to pay $650/mo for $5k deductible, but we got tired of getting fucked and now take our chances.

 

[Tim]

I'll post up the bills from this week when I get them in...

So far emergency dentist visit, with two root canals, CAT scan, MRI, doctors office visit, 5 prescriptions, etc.

Just a little background. My wife has had numerous dentist visits this year, yet this abscess came as a surprise to everyone. The infection moved from the tooth root to the jaw. This wasn't due to neglect on our part, not at all.
And after 5 days of her jaw swollen two times what it should be, it's still not over. I may be taking her to the ER tomorrow so they can drain the accumulated fluid.

Our bills may would be enough to sink us if we didn't have health insurance...

In another month or so our family might find ourselves without insurance because the company I am working for is going under. Then what?

I asked how much it would cost me to continue my health insurance if the company goes under... The COBRA would cost us $1450/month. And the max unemployment you can collect in PA is $2050/month no matter how much you made.

So it looks our family will be going without health insurance until I can find another job that has it.

 

[cam elle toe]

1400 a month???? What cover does that give you? A room at the Hilton and your own private team?:willy_nilly:

I've looked into private recently because I am pretty sure the boy may need some orthopedic work later. This would be "elective" surgery and not covered by Medicare

I can get full cover for both of us (dental, chiro, physio massage, natural therapies, choice of doctor and private hospital...the works) for around $50 per week and no waiting period.

Heres just one site

http://www.hcf.com.au/product/ProductFinder/ProductCustomiser.aspx

 

[Johnfromokc]

The working class is totally and completely fucked in the United States where health care is concerned. We have the most expensive health care system in the world. But try and convince some average working class and middle class people that we need to fix it and move to a universal system and they will argue for the fucking they are currently taking over "Socialized Medicine".




You have to stand in awe of the effectiveness of the brainwashing propaganda of the corpratocracy media mouth pieces that have convinced Americans to continue voting for policies that enrich the oligarchy while bankrupting 1,000,000 Americans annually.

 

[Panacea]

I'm uninsured.
Told this story a few times on here, so pardon that, but I figure it fits with the thread.

I fainted in a hospital (fucking lucky me) and they punched me in the chest to keep me from "dying", I guess my pulse was below 40? They threw an IV in, stuck me on a gurney and dragged me downstairs. Made sure I wasn't brain damaged from cracking my head on the floor (basically, can you stand, what day is it?) and gave me one bag of IV saline. They gave me a pregnancy and drug test, an EKG, and I sat there for 5 hours waiting for nurses to attend to me. I felt hungover for a weekend from hitting my head on cement but otherwise I was fine. (Though, my cheekbone still hurts 9 months later). They gave me a diagnosis of a "vasovagal event" and told me to go see my doctor (I don't have one lol).

That's the job of the ER, there's nothing more they could do, but...those five hours cost $1600 dollars. I might as well been romping around with a high end male hooker for that much. Luckily for me, I had the money saved, so they gave me a discount (shows how corrupt it is anyway) and I paid out about $1100 cash.

My mom had cancer in 2009-2010. She had a hellish time with the side effects of chemo and radiation, where she ultimately lost use of her stomach, they removed much of her intestines, she was on a feeding tube, had her digestive tract rearranged, etc. She's hardly making it now, I mean, she's bald headed and 80lbs, constantly getting infections and winding up in the ER. She was healthier when she had cancer than now, actually. Anyway.

My parents have pretty damn good insurance, costs them $700 per month, but they will ultimately, whenever the ball starts rolling, lose everything. She gets disability, and my dad works 40+ hours weekly, but they're drowning in their regular bills. Once the hospital moves forward with collections and obtaining the dozens of thousands of dollars they owe...I just don't know.

I'm convinced there's no perfect way to administer health care. There are perks to buying insurance (fast service, many specialists, centers, lots of help available to people), but there are obvious downsides. Universal health care is on the opposite side of that coin (more access, but long wait times and fewer specialists).

Still, I think it's fucking embarrassing what most people in this country go through just to avoid dying.

 

[Johnfromokc]

I'm convinced there's no perfect way to administer health care. There are perks to buying insurance (fast service, many specialists, centers, lots of help available to people), but there are obvious downsides. Universal health care is on the opposite side of that coin (more access, but long wait times and fewer specialists).

There may be no "perfect" way to administer health care, but there are many countries who do it one hell of a lot better than the United States.

Cammie can expand on this if she likes, but Australia for example has a two-tier system of "public cover" and "private cover". 100% of the population is covered regardless. And as Cammie has already pointed out - there is no waiting. We have to wait in the U.S. for some care even if we have insurance. Universal health care does not meen automatic waiting or inefficiency - that's just the bullshit we have been conditioned to believe from years of propaganda.

We can do better - we just tend to repeat like lemmings what we are told about universal care - which is a fucking LIE!

 

[Panacea]

Most of my knowledge of universal health care comes from Canada, which, as better off as they are, has one foot still up the ass of US politics. There are something like 30 cancer centers in all of Canada, but for me, I cannot ever make sense of how immoral our health care system is. It's just wrong that treating disease and accidents without financial burden isn't possible. Whether that burden be insurance costs or bill costs or BOTH.

 

[Francis]

1400 a month???? What cover does that give you? A room at the Hilton and your own private team?:willy_nilly:

I've looked into private recently because I am pretty sure the boy may need some orthopedic work later. This would be "elective" surgery and not covered by Medicare

I can get full cover for both of us (dental, chiro, physio massage, natural therapies, choice of doctor and private hospital...the works) for around $50 per week and no waiting period.

Heres just one site

http://www.hcf.com.au/product/ProductFinder/ProductCustomiser.aspx

We have similar packages in Private insurance Canada but one needs to read the fine print.

Our Universal Health Care only covers the basics and unless you work for a very large company getting coverage for the things our health care does not cover, outside emergency situations, can have catches..

So call it an upgrade..

But here is the catch if I was to go to Blue Cross ( who are the only ones who will accept you if you have had any previous medical issues whatsoever ) to get Physio, Dental and Medicine not covered by Health Care or Private room in hospital..

You cannot exceed the amount you pay in a year to the insurance. Of course this makes fiscal sense.. I mean why would the insurance company go in the Red to cover people who always go way over their coverage. This would be the only time you would take added coverage in Canada.. But you can look all you want on the web site and it does not say this until you sign the policy.. I know I had one 5 years ago..

My yearly cost for this was $2500.00 CAD.

 

[Francis]

As Universal as our Health Care is, it is not free.. At some point it is paid for. It cost me $70.00 a month for my Canada Health insurance but should something happen to me the plan would continue without me requiring my financial input. So when i get released from the hospital 1 year later I do not have a huge debt to pay off due to illness.

The lack of Doctors or Specialist has a lot to do with the education system not being able to keep up with the demand of new ones coming out of Universities fast enough to replace those retiring. This is also the case for all those who work in departments such a radiology and so on.

While other countries also have Universal Health Care that could be viewed at a higher level than Canada, one has to realize that some of those countries pay up to 45% and 50% income taxes to keep those social programs at such levels and are glad to do so from what I understand..

 

[Guyzerr]

Our Universal Health Care only covers the basics

What do you consider to be the basics Francis? It covered my 4 major surgeries one of which was the triple bypass. I can only imagine what those costs would have been in the USA. Our Universal Health Care also covered my 4 MRI's and one CT scan this year. It will soon be covering my second CT scan. Doctors visits... all covered. All blood work .... covered ... and I get that done every 3 months.... X-Rays.... all covered as well. I could go on but as you see from that it's a bit more than the basic stuff. I wouldn't want any Yanks getting the wrong idea.

and unless you work for a very large company getting coverage for the things our health care does not cover, outside emergency situations, can have catches..

Francis you make it sound as if our Universal Coverage doesn't cover much when in actuality it covers a hell of a lot over and above emergency situations. Some elective stuff isn't covered and that makes perfect sense to me.
That said, all insurance policies have catches but every " ryder policy " I've ever been involved with with covers that vast majority of stuff not covered by our Universal policy. It all depends how stingy your employer is.

But here is the catch if I was to go to Blue Cross ( who are the only ones who will accept you if you have had any previous medical issues whatsoever ) to get Physio, Dental and Medicine not covered by Health Care or Private room in hospital..

All private through the employer coverage in Canada will accept you. They have no other choice. They do have limitations as far as previous illness is concerned but in most cases that limitation is only for one year. Suicide isn't normally covered however even that was the exception with one business I was in involved in. It had a limitation as well and being so long ago I forget exactly what that time period was.

You cannot exceed the amount you pay in a year to the insurance. Of course this makes fiscal sense.. I mean why would the insurance company go in the Red to cover people who always go way over their coverage. This would be the only time you would take added coverage in Canada.. But you can look all you want on the web site and it does not say this until you sign the policy.. I know I had one 5 years ago..

Francis I think you're talking about singular coverage because your statements do not apply to employer supplied group coverage. I have a super plan supplied by my employer that gives me great coverage as a super low cost. My portion is $30.40 per month for both me and my wife. Combine that with my monthly provincial charge of $116.00 which also covers my wife and I say I have a great deal. As far as my Blue Cross coverage is concerned the limitations are on such things as psychotherapy, eye glasses, dental etc but even at that it isn't capped at the amount a person pays in premiums per year.

My yearly cost for this was $2500.00 CAD.

That would have included your family right?

 

[Accountable]

This cartoon sums it up. We do not have universal health care in the U.S. - That's common knowledge. And many who would benefit the most from UHC fight it tooth and nail. They have been so brainwashed by the Limbaugh's Hannity's, Beck's, Boortz's, Coulter's and all the other right wing libertarian corporate asshats they listen to.

Just think how small business would benefit if health care was universal and the owners did not have to deal with the ever expensive group health insurance policies for their employees. But small business owners are often just like the lady in this cartoon - as they complain how difficult it is to pay for employee health plans.

We have a massive case of collective Cranial Rectumitus in the U.S. Why else would so many Americans continue to vote against their own best interests election after election?

Well, the lady in the cartoon certainly relegated herself to serfdom. It's the whole culture of dependency we're headed for.

How come nobody is calling for an Amendment giving the federal gov't authority to provide universal healthcare?

 

[Johnfromokc]

How come nobody is calling for an Amendment giving the federal gov't authority to provide universal healthcare?

Article 1, Section 8: The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States

 

[Accountable]

Sorry, that don't cut it. If it did, we wouldn't have needed the 16th Amendment. Actually, if you define it that loosely, the rest of the Constitution is a waste of good paper.

 

[Francis]

What do you consider to be the basics Francis? It covered my 4 major surgeries one of which was the triple bypass. I can only imagine what those costs would have been in the USA. Our Universal Health Care also covered my 4 MRI's and one CT scan this year. It will soon be covering my second CT scan. Doctors visits... all covered. All blood work .... covered ... and I get that done every 3 months.... X-Rays.... all covered as well. I could go on but as you see from that it's a bit more than the basic stuff. I wouldn't want any Yanks getting the wrong idea.

Yes I would consider any Hospital, Doctor visit a basic but if you require a CT Scan or MRI image you may now be required to pay. These are considered necessities by some doctors and it really depends on the surgery you require. Also any medication that has any generic or is brand new is no longer covered by BCMSP so they have to give you the old stuff unless you have prime coverage.

preventive services and screening tests not supported by evidence of medical effectiveness (for example, routine annual "complete" physical examinations, whole body CT scans, prostate specific antigen (PSA) tests)

http://www.health.gov.bc.ca/msp/infoben/benefits.html

To meet the first goal, PharmaCare covers a drug only if it has a proven record of safety and effectiveness. To meet the second goal, PharmaCare compares each drug to the drugs it already covers that treat the same condition. For example, if more than one drug provides the same health benefit, PharmaCare may cover only the drug(s) that offers the best value.

http://www.health.gov.bc.ca/pharmacare/outgoing/drugrevproc2.pdf


Also Eye exams, Dental, Casts and the last time I was at the hospital, Medication upon Exit, were charged to me.

As a self employed person I am not covered other than the extreme basics of BCMSP for which i am learning has many new changes and execptions that can quickly be applied depending on the wording.

Francis you make it sound as if our Universal Coverage doesn't cover much when in actuality it covers a hell of a lot over and above emergency situations. Some elective stuff isn't covered and that makes perfect sense to me.
That said, all insurance policies have catches but every " ryder policy " I've ever been involved with with covers that vast majority of stuff not covered by our Universal policy. It all depends how stingy your employer is.

Like I just said, since I have been my own employee due to being sub-contracted, I have seen how little is covered.. It's pretty eye opening but of course its all prorated to your salary.. So the more you make the less they cover and this can actually be really costly.. So yes for someone who has no money it is a benefit but someone with a decent to very good salary it can eat much of it away.

All private through the employer coverage in Canada will accept you. They have no other choice. They do have limitations as far as previous illness is concerned but in most cases that limitation is only for one year. Suicide isn't normally covered however even that was the exception with one business I was in involved in. It had a limitation as well and being so long ago I forget exactly what that time period was.

No true.. If you have any prior medical conditions and depending on your employer's policy you can be disqualified from a policy for that condition. The only time I was not disqualified from my so called "never discovered medical condition" and covered for my expensive medication was with the Government and one other very large company.

If you apply as a self employed person the only company that presently accepts people with medical conditions is Blue Cross.

Francis I think you're talking about singular coverage because your statements do not apply to employer supplied group coverage. I have a super plan supplied by my employer that gives me great coverage as a super low cost. My portion is $30.40 per month for both me and my wife. Combine that with my monthly provincial charge of $116.00 which also covers my wife and I say I have a great deal. As far as my Blue Cross coverage is concerned the limitations are on such things as psychotherapy, eye glasses, dental etc but even at that it isn't capped at the amount a person pays in premiums per year.

Same idea but for sub-contractors as a single policy with only my son included only.. It was considered a continuation from my last employer with Blue Cross that anyone can get.. Rates are dependant on your medical and age situation but had the most leeway. It did not include Glasses and only the very basic on Dental at 50% of cost. Here was the quote for ages 45 to 54 last year..

Core EHC + Essential Prescription Drug Option + Essential Dental Option: $191 per month

 

[Tim]

Sorry, that don't cut it. If it did, we wouldn't have needed the 16th Amendment. Actually, if you define it that loosely, the rest of the Constitution is a waste of good paper.

The sixteenth amendment was needed to nullify a decision made by the supreme court.

Just because the supreme court misinterpreted the constitution doesn't mean that it wasn't the intent of framers.

Just look at the whole mess with citizens united. Do you really think the outcome was the intent of the framers of the constitution or do you think the supreme court got it wrong?
If a new amendment was passed to overturn citizen united, 100 years from now, someone could use the same argument you are right now. They could say that the constitution viewed corporations as people and money is free speech until they passed the 28th amendment.

 

[Accountable]

The Constitution was written to provide for a limited federal gov't. You can't have a limited gov't if a 31-word clause was meant to give it unlimited unfettered reach into every individual's life.

 

[Tim]

The Constitution was written to provide for a limited federal gov't. You can't have a limited gov't if a 31-word clause was meant to give it unlimited unfettered reach into every individual's life.

I understand where you coming with this... but I don't see it as unfettered reach into peoples lives.

There are some things that are not specifically spelled out in the constitution that are still considered under the purview of it.

Consider the department of highways, with it's establishment, the federal government was able to create an amazing interstate highway system that benefited all of the citizens. It enhanced our security and provided for interstate commerce. Do you believe that it was unconstitutional?