Heck, he may not even have existed

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edgray

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An excerpt from: Nailed - Ten Christian Myths That Show Jesus Never Existed at All

Didn't There Have to Have Been a Jesus?
Most people have never heard of the ancient Greek mythographer Euhemerus, who first theorized that the gods of mythology were deified human beings, and their myths based on legends sprung from accounts of real people and events. So many might be surprised to find that they are Euhemerists on the subject of Jesus. That is to say, though they may not believe Jesus was the divine Christ that Christianity venerates as the Son of God and savior of the world, and may regard accounts of the miracles and wonders attending him as mere legendary accretion, nevertheless they certainly believe there had to have been a central figure that began Christianity.

Perhaps he was just a wandering teacher or an exorcist, an apocalyptic prophet or a zealot who opposed the Romans. Perhaps he was all these things, or even a composite of several such early first-century figures; but at any rate, surely there had to be somebody at the original core of Christianity, arguably the most famous individual in human history. All this seems to be a perfectly reasonable, completely natural assumption to make – so why would anyone be so foolish as to propose that Jesus never existed?

Doesn't it just make more sense to assume that there was a historical Jesus, even if we are unable to recover the real facts about his life and death? As it turns out, no. The opposite is true: the closer we look at the evidence for Jesus, the less solid evidence we find; and the more we find suspicious silences and curious resemblances to the pagan and Jewish religious ideas and philosophies that preceded Christianity. And once you begins to parse out the origins of this tradition or that teaching from their various sources, the sweater begins unraveling quickly until it becomes very difficult to buy that there ever was – or even could have been – any historical figure at the center.

Christianity, like all religious movements, was born from mythmaking; and nowhere is this clearer than when we examine the context from which Jesus sprang. The supposed historical underpinning of Jesus, which apologists insist differentiates their Christ from the myriad other savior gods and divine sons of the ancient pagan world, simply does not hold up to investigation.

On the contrary, the closer we examine the official story, or rather stories, of Christianity (or Christianities!), the quicker it becomes apparent that the figure of the historical Jesus has traveled with a bodyguard of widely accepted, seldom examined untruths for over two millennia…

It’s true enough that the majority of Biblical historians do not question the historicity of Jesus – but then again, the majority of Biblical historians have always been Christian preachers, so what else could we expect them to say? For all their bluster, the truth is that for as long as there have been Christian writings, there have been critics who have disputed Christian claims and called events from the Gospel stories into question. And since at least the 18th century a growing number of historians have raised serious problems that cast Jesus’ historicity into outright doubt, as we’ll see.

Jesus vs. Julius Caesar

For instance, historian Richard Carrier has pointed out the problems with Christian apologist Douglas Geivett’s claim that the evidence for Jesus’ resurrection meets “the highest standards of historical inquiry,” and is as certain as Julius Caesar’s crossing of the Rubicon in 49 B.C.E. Carrier notes, “Well, it is common in Christian apologetics, throughout history, to make absurdly exaggerated claims, and this is no exception.” Then he compares the evidence for both events:

First of all, we have Caesar’s own account. In contrast, we have nothing written by Jesus, and we do not know who really wrote any of the Gospels. Second, many of Caesar’s enemies reported the crossing of the Rubicon. But we have no hostile or even neutral records of the resurrection until over a hundred years after the supposed event, fifty years after Christian beliefs had become widely known. Third, there are numerous inscriptions, coins, mentions of battles, conscriptions and judgments, which form an almost continuous chain of evidence for Caesar’s entire march. But there is no physical evidence of any kind in the case of Jesus.

Fourth, almost every historian of the period reports the Rubicon crossing, including the most prominent of the Roman age: Suetonius, Appian, Cassius Dio and Plutarch. Moreover, these scholars have shown proven reliability, since a great many of their reports on other matters have been confirmed with material evidence and in other sources. In addition, they all quote and name many different sources, showing a wide reading of the witnesses and documents, and they consistently show a desire to critically examine claims for which there is any dispute. If that wasn’t enough, all of them cite or quote sources written by witnesses, hostile and friendly, of the Rubicon crossing and its repercussions.

But not a single historian mentions the resurrection until the 3rd and 4th centuries, and then only Christian historians. Of the anonymous Gospel authors, only “Luke” even claims to be writing history, but neither Luke nor any of the others ever cite any other sources or show signs of a skilled or critical examination of conflicting claims. None have any other literature or scholarship to their credit that we can test for their skill and accuracy. Their actual identities are completely unknown, and all overtly declare their bias towards persuading new converts.

Finally, the Roman Civil War could not have proceeded as it did if Caesar had not physically crossed the Rubicon with his army into Italy and captured Rome. Yet the only thing necessary to explain the rise of Christianity is a belief — a belief that the resurrection happened. There is nothing that an actual resurrection would have caused that could not have been caused by a mere belief in that resurrection. Thus, an actual resurrection is not necessary to explain all subsequent history, unlike Caesar’s crossing of the Rubicon. Carrier concludes that while we have many reasons to believe that Caesar crossed the Rubicon, all of them are lacking in the case of the resurrection:

“In fact, when we compare all five points, we see that in four of the five proofs of an event’s historicity, the resurrection has no evidence at all, and in the one proof that it does have, it has not the best, but the very worst kind of evidence — a handful of biased, uncritical, unscholarly, unknown, second-hand witnesses. Indeed, you really have to look hard to find another event that is in a worse condition than this as far as evidence goes.”

So even before we begin to examine Jesus’ resurrection, we are forced to recognize that the historical evidence for it, and all the other extraordinary events of Jesus’ career, is not only far from ironclad, but already suspect. So there is nothing unreasonable about taking a skeptical approach to the Gospels’ image of Jesus in the first place. And it’s important to note that we are not just talking about the divine man-god Jesus coming under fire, because it is not just the supernatural aspects of Jesus that have come under suspicion. Even the mundane and perfectly plausible-sounding aspects of Jesus’ life have proved to be problematic…

------

Looking forward to reading this book at some point. I find it odd how so many people talk about Jesus in 100% definite terms, when the historical evidence is so flaky.

Worth thinking about given that an entire worldview is based on his life...
 
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Zorak

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Nobody except the most zealous of Christian's actually believe Jesus walked on water or turned water into wine...
But I have no trouble imagining that some very Charismatic Jew went around preaching and causing a hubbub in the Eastern world, and from him a myth was born.

We know Caesar existed, but that didn't stop his own mythology being raised around him. Caesar actively encouraged it and proclaimed himself a God.

What's the difference between the two? Nothing, except, one mythology lingered.
 

Minor Axis

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“In fact, when we compare all five points, we see that in four of the five proofs of an event’s historicity, the resurrection has no evidence at all, and in the one proof that it does have, it has not the best, but the very worst kind of evidence — a handful of biased, uncritical, unscholarly, unknown, second-hand witnesses. Indeed, you really have to look hard to find another event that is in a worse condition than this as far as evidence goes.”

Pretty powerful argument if you're willing to consider.
 

BornReady

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Looking forward to reading this book at some point.

It's an interesting book. Here's what Frank Zindler, editor of American Atheist Press, has to say.

“David Fitzgerald reveals himself to be the brightest new star in the firmament of scholars who deny historical reality to Jesus of Nazareth.”

I read Fitzgerald's book after hearing him speak at Skepticon 3 last November. His talk is nearly an hour long and it's never as much fun to watch a video afterward. But I included a link in case you're interested.

[youtube]MvleOBYTrDE[/youtube]
 

Xeno

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On a bit of a side note...

...I tend to be interested in the idea that God and other Angels were really aliens from another world. I do not support the notion that God exists or does not exist, but I like to think that there is something out there overall. I just find the idea that maybe aliens are what we worship nowadays a bit intriguing. There has be quite a bit of evidence to support it as well. Just something to ponder I suppose. Again, just my own thoughts.
 
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Xeno

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Well I tend to look in the bible itself at times and compare them to the stories of alien abductions, sightings, and personal contacts. Most of them line up altogether in the details of what had happened or the events that lead up to what they had experienced. As far as Crop Circles and most sightings...I can not fully rely on them at times so that makes it hard at times. Too many people are deceitful these days, but I do think the Egyptian Pyramids and Global Hieroglyphics can prove that perhaps the Gods we believe in were actually aliens in all actuality. Then again, anything is quite possible.
 
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BornReady

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Well I tend to look in the bible itself at times and compare them to the stories of alien abductions, sightings, and personal contacts. Most of them line up altogether in the details of what had happened or the events that lead up to what they had experienced.

That's an astute observation. People used to be abducted by demons before the modern alien craze. Demons are out now and aliens are in. So now people are abducted by aliens. So when the abductee expected her abductor to look and act like a demon he did. Now that she expects him to look and act like an alien he does. There's something causing these experiences but it isn't aliens or demons. Most likely it's entirely psychological.
 

Xeno

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That's an astute observation. People used to be abducted by demons before the modern alien craze. Demons are out now and aliens are in. So now people are abducted by aliens. So when the abductee expected her abductor to look and act like a demon he did. Now that she expects him to look and act like an alien he does. There's something causing these experiences but it isn't aliens or demons. Most likely it's entirely psychological.

It is a possibility that people are being effected psychologically. I mean people were a bit gullible back in that time set, but it seems too coincidental that people whom have never met and live distant from each other can recall the same thing in this day and age. I just find it odd that these Angels or even God are described as a ball of light at times or are taking people up into the clouds to talk with them. Now the whole demons thing falls perfectly with the accounts of people claiming to have been abducted by aliens, but a different type altogether. Reptilianoids. Well, either way, I have to look at the time set of these events. Back then people who saw these beings, creatures, or even ships would have been given the "logic" that the answers were in the bible. Most events through history back then were always referred to as "A Miracle of God" or "God's Wrath". Nowadays we are able to understand what they could be because they differ or look similar to our own technology as well as not being as gullible to fall for the "answers in the bible" theory. Though some might settle for that overall.Just seems as if there is a bit more to the whole bible and alien concepts in the terms of being merged as one in explaining the truth of what could have existed back then. Then again...these are just mere thoughts and theories as usual.
 

Accountable

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Ed, why does another person's belief, moral system, call it what you will, get under your skin so much that you would expend so much energy to rail against it?
 

Xeno

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Ed, why does another person's belief, moral system, call it what you will, get under your skin so much that you would expend so much energy to rail against it?

Pardon me for replying...

...I believe the reason why people such as Ed (maybe not his reasonings) question the beliefs and moral systems overall is because there seems to lurk a deep "wanting" so to speak for the truth. I am not opposed to someone wanting to know more or to know the truth because to be quite honest there is no "truth" nowadays. There is only controversy, undiscovered evidence, and undying faith that exists. I can see why one would want to know because it would put so much into perspective, but again...that may not be his reasonings. I am merely stating why others may question the beliefs and moral systems of others overall. So long as one does not disrespect another's beliefs with sheer ignorance, violence, and verbal abuse then I see no harm in questioning what we were taught to believe or not to believe in this day and age. Just my own thoughts though.
 

Xeno

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When I was a mere child...

...the appeal to me were the crackers, wine, and toys in the back room. The songs always put me to sleep so that was never fun overall.
 

dkwrtw

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There was a lot of appeal for me as a kid, the church we went to had a great youth program, alway organizing trips for the kids going to theme parks and stuff, I actually had a lot of fun going to church as a kid.
 

Xeno

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There was a lot of appeal for me as a kid, the church we went to had a great youth program, alway organizing trips for the kids going to theme parks and stuff, I actually had a lot of fun going to church as a kid.

Tis ashame the world has changed so much from then and now. Nowadays it seems hardly safe to even go to church without a "red flag" popping up about the priest. That is life I suppose. Things just change.
 

dkwrtw

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Yeah I know what you mean, I haven't been to church in years but I doubt most of them are really doing anything like that anymore, I actually miss those days, I have a lot of good memories of going to church as a kid.
 
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