Grace relies on good information.

[Greatest I am]

Grace relies on good information.

Many Christians say that God does not send us to hell and that we CHOOSE to go there on our own. If fully informed, only the insane would reject God.

Given that God wills the very best for us, and given that we ourselves want the very best for ourselves, then it would seem that no one could make a FULLY INFORMED decision against God. And if not FULLY INFORMED, then the free will defense of hell falls down.

For me, this would apply to the above, given that to reject that which is (by the definition of Christians) the very best for us would imply that one is not fully informed.

This argument is developed in many ways in Thomas Talbott's book "The Inescapable Love of God", where he shows how a doctrine of Universalism (all are eventually saved) is compatible with the Biblical teaching as found in the NT, especially the writings of St Paul.

This quote also indicates that it is God’s will that none be lost and I cannot see God letting his will be thwarted by mankind.

Peter 3;9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

That being the case, there is no hell. Right?
No one who is not insane would choose hell. Right?
God does not allow his will to be thwarted. Right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZM3FXlLMug

Regards
DL

 

[BornReady]

Many Christians say that God does not send us to hell and that we CHOOSE to go there on our own.

I suppose it's not immoral to send you to hell if that's where you want to be. As long as you can leave when you choose to leave. It's like S&M sex games. It's not immoral to torture your sex partner if that's what he wants. But if you don't stop when he tells you to then you're immoral.

 

[Greatest I am]

I suppose it's not immoral to send you to hell if that's where you want to be. As long as you can leave when you choose to leave. It's like S&M sex games. It's not immoral to torture your sex partner if that's what he wants. But if you don't stop when he tells you to then you're immoral.

I agree but dogma says that once in hell, there is no getting out.

Have you noticed a decline in apologists?
I have notices that even the pope is trying to stir them to battle but it does not seem to be working. That or the ones I know are starting to see that their enemies cannot be thrown off and tend to know more than they do. I know others who have noted the same decline.

Regards
DL

 

[Diggin Deep]

I agree but dogma says that once in hell, there is no getting out.

Have you noticed a decline in apologists?
I have notices that even the pope is trying to stir them to battle but it does not seem to be working. That or the ones I know are starting to see that their enemies cannot be thrown off and tend to know more than they do. I know others who have noted the same decline.

Regards
DL

A Christian is not called to argue whose belief is right or wrong. They are called to spread the word - plant a seed if you will. Ultimately, getting into heaven or staying out of hell is not based on one's knowledge, but their belief in God and their acceptance of His sacrifice. Unfortunately, not everyone has the accessibility to acquiring a deeper knowledge as some of us do. And some people would rather carry out God's call to spread His Word to those who want to hear it, instead of debating with people regarding who's belief is right or wrong.

 

[Greatest I am]

A Christian is not called to argue whose belief is right or wrong. They are called to spread the word - plant a seed if you will. Ultimately, getting into heaven or staying out of hell is not based on one's knowledge, but their belief in God and their acceptance of His sacrifice. Unfortunately, not everyone has the accessibility to acquiring a deeper knowledge as some of us do. And some people would rather carry out God's call to spread His Word to those who want to hear it, instead of debating with people regarding who's belief is right or wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYaQpRZJl18&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-91mSkxaXs

Scapegoaters go to hell.

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

This above says do as your told or burn.

Regards
DL

 

[Diggin Deep]

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

This above says do as your told or burn.

Regards
DL

You are correct. If the "Bible God" is real and we do not accept Him as our God, then yes we will suffer the consequences of not obeying His law. As harsh as it may sound, it is no different than breaking the laws of the land. We know it's against the law to steal, to rape, and to murder. If we knowingly break the law, then we must suffer the punishment and deal with the consequences. We know what the punishment is before we willfully choose to adhere to it or break it.
Here are a few quotes from previous posts:

By saying that hell doesn't exist or that it is temporal implies that the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ was not necessary or at best not sufficient. Therefore, anything besides the biblical aspect of hell is directly opposed to the fundamental premise of the Christian faith, namely the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Another aspect of the consequences of these oppositions to biblical hell is that they all contradict or challenge the justice of God. No human can judge anything about God. This isn’t to say that we can’t have doubts and questions. The sovereignty of God is challenged, so to speak, when we say that an eternal hell is unjust or that God is unjust for sending people to hell (when in fact hell is the choice of the individual).

The various unbiblical views of hell are in direct opposition to the foundation of the Christian faith. Without hell then justice could not be realized. Without hell there would be no need for Jesus Christ because there would be other means of salvation or, in the case of annihilation, it would all be meaningless. Therefore, the consequence of the beliefs of a nonexistence or unbiblical hell is that the core of the Christian faith is diluted and rendered meaningless.

...tell me what you think is fair justice. Do you not feel that if someone raped and murdered your wife or child, they deserve to be punished? Do you think that a life sentence or even the death penalty is too harsh of a punishment? A life away from their own parents, wife or husband, children is too harsh? If not, then why is believing that God's justice requires there to be a hell - an eternity without Him - so simplistic? Why is believing that if I have rejected God, Christ, and His Gosepl on earth that I should not be able to spend an eternity with Him in heaven, but an eternity in hell, a simplistic view? God's justice transcends our own. Hell is more than punishment, it is a consequence of not believing in God when we had the chance. Regardless of one person's interpretation of hell from another - hell is a choice that one makes for themself. It doesn't matter if you believe or don't believe, what you think hell is or isn't, God tells us that there will be consequences for not believing. Which is no different than knowing the consequences of breaking the law and still commiting the crime. You knew what the punishment would be and yet you did it anyways. Just because you may not agree with the a life without parole or the death sentence, doesn't mean it isn't real and isn't enforced. You reap what you sow.

If I would not serve Him on earth, why would I want to serve Him in heaven? If I did not believe on earth that God was real and that there was a heaven or hell, and then when I die - I find that there really is a God - why should I be able to enter Heaven? If everything that I heard while in the flesh on earth ended up being true, what right would I have then to expect God to give me a another chance, after all of the chances I had on earth? Especially when there are those that are on earth who have believed and have followed - what would be the point of them to have believed and followed God? What would be the point and purpose of Jesus Christ, Salvation, a relationship with God?

Thankfully, the Bible calls us to preach the Gospel, not the avoidance of Hell.

 

[Greatest I am]

You are correct. If the "Bible God" is real and we do not accept Him as our God, then yes we will suffer the consequences of not obeying His law. As harsh as it may sound, it is no different than breaking the laws of the land. We know it's against the law to steal, to rape, and to murder. If we knowingly break the law, then we must suffer the punishment and deal with the consequences. We know what the punishment is before we willfully choose to adhere to it or break it.
Here are a few quotes from previous posts:





Thankfully, the Bible calls us to preach the Gospel, not the avoidance of Hell.

Stay behind your God.

http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab14/43alley/hdupass.jpg

Regards
DL

 

[Diggin Deep]

Stay behind your God.

Regards
DL

I prefer to stand next to Him.

 

[Greatest I am]

I prefer to stand next to Him.

Can't do that when you are riding him as your scapegoat and personal beast of burden.

Regards
DL

 

[Diggin Deep]

Can't do that when you are riding him as your scapegoat and personal beast of burden.

Regards
DL

You surely can do better than that. Maybe if you were standing on my side of the fence, you would see it differently.

You see, it's not that I have a problem with you disagreeing with me or not believing in the god that I do. It's your choice and I respect that. But I see somone with such great knowledge or at least great google and you tube knowledge when you pose an argument - and I must say they are pretty thought provoking. Then when it actually comes down to discussing and debating those religious beliefs with someone who disagrees with you - you immediately resort to negative and rude comments towards the believer and their belief.

It's ok though...I'm sure I'll keep coming back for more.

 

[sexysadie]

You surely can do better than that. Maybe if you were standing on my side of the fence, you would see it differently.

You see, it's not that I have a problem with you disagreeing with me or not believing in the god that I do. It's your choice and I respect that. But I see somone with such great knowledge or at least great google and you tube knowledge when you pose an argument - and I must say they are pretty thought provoking. Then when it actually comes down to discussing and debating those religious beliefs with someone who disagrees with you - you immediately resort to negative and rude comments towards the believer and their belief.

It's ok though...I'm sure I'll keep coming back for more.

pssssssst! I've been where you are, trust me, these threads are not created for the purpose of debating, they're used to cause friction, and when we allow them, they work very well. I share this information with you because you seem like an intelligent individual who, like myself, has a life and just hates to waste perfectly good 'chill' time. j/s

 

[BornReady]

Thankfully, the Bible calls us to preach the Gospel, not the avoidance of Hell.

I thought the gospel was the avoidance of hell.

Anyway, the traditional Christian hell is immoral. Many Christians have realized that and have civilized their view. I believe you're one that has. It won't be much longer before everyone who holds on to the old traditional view will be seen for what they are.

 

[Diggin Deep]

pssssssst! I've been where you are, trust me, these threads are not created for the purpose of debating, they're used to cause friction, and when we allow them, they work very well. I share this information with you because you seem like an intelligent individual who, like myself, has a life and just hates to waste perfectly good 'chill' time. j/s

Sadie - I appreciate your concern. Please know that I understand the repercussions of talking about religion, especially when you are the minority. I also know the good that can come out of it. I can see where these types of threads can cause friction. I'm no stranger to people turning away from me because of my beliefs...even on this site. I took that chance when I decided to be openly discuss it. And while I agree that it is important to surround yourself with people who share your belief, it is equally as important to surround yourself with those who don't.

Having said all of that...I don't consider the time I spend talking religion or sharing my belief a waste of time. I feel that even though Greatest and many others disagree with me, there might be a few that read and get it. I make no apologies for what I believe in and admit that ultimately, I could be wrong about everything.

I am mature enough to respect the many different views and opinions regarding religion. Even though some comments frustrate me, I refuse to take it personal. Afterall, they are just opinions. I have a lot of respect for Greatest even though I don't agree with him or his tactics - but it is his right. He can say whatever he wants. As I have said before, most of his threads are really thought provoking and help strengthen my personal relationship with God. And just as he feels a duty to raise these thought provoking ideas against God, I feel the duty to offer a different side for Him.

 

[Diggin Deep]

I thought the gospel was the avoidance of hell.

Anyway, the traditional Christian hell is immoral. Many Christians have realized that and have civilized their view. I believe you're one that has. It won't be much longer before everyone who holds on to the old traditional view will be seen for what they are.

In a strange way...I'm going to take that as a compliment

 

[sexysadie]

Sadie - I appreciate your concern. Please know that I understand the repercussions of talking about religion, especially when you are the minority. I also know the good that can come out of it. I can see where these types of threads can cause friction. I'm no stranger to people turning away from me because of my beliefs...even on this site. I took that chance when I decided to be openly discuss it. And while I agree that it is important to surround yourself with people who share your belief, it is equally as important to surround yourself with those who don't.

Having said all of that...I don't consider the time I spend talking religion or sharing my belief a waste of time. I feel that even though Greatest and many others disagree with me, there might be a few that read and get it. I make no apologies for what I believe in and admit that ultimately, I could be wrong about everything.

I am mature enough to respect the many different views and opinions regarding religion. Even though some comments frustrate me, I refuse to take it personal. Afterall, they are just opinions. I have a lot of respect for Greatest even though I don't agree with him or his tactics - but it is his right. He can say whatever he wants. As I have said before, most of his threads are really thought provoking and help strengthen my personal relationship with God. And just as he feels a duty to raise these thought provoking ideas against God, I feel the duty to offer a different side for Him.

Like I said earlier, I've been where you are......God speed.

 

[sexysadie]

I thought the gospel was the avoidance of hell.

Anyway, the traditional Christian hell is immoral. Many Christians have realized that and have civilized their view. I believe you're one that has. It won't be much longer before everyone who holds on to the old traditional view will be seen for what they are.

True beliefs don't go out of style my friend. Truth is, what most of us want is to be assured that Hell doesn't really exist so that we don't have to take responsibility for our own actions. News flash here, Hell exists and whether any of us want to accept that fact, makes no difference, it is what it is...

'civilized their view'....what does that even mean?

 

[Diggin Deep]

'civilized their view'....what does that even mean?

I think he is referring to the people that believe and preach that hell is a lake of fire - a torture chamber if you will. And the people who believe hell is better described as eternal darkness - a separation from God.

Read a previous post that I wrote describing my view of hell:

What is Hell?

Regardless of what it actually is - Denying the existence of hell does not mean that it doesn't exist in the same way that denying that it is raining outside won't make the reality of the rain vanish.

 

[Greatest I am]

You surely can do better than that. Maybe if you were standing on my side of the fence, you would see it differently.

You see, it's not that I have a problem with you disagreeing with me or not believing in the god that I do. It's your choice and I respect that. But I see somone with such great knowledge or at least great google and you tube knowledge when you pose an argument - and I must say they are pretty thought provoking. Then when it actually comes down to discussing and debating those religious beliefs with someone who disagrees with you - you immediately resort to negative and rude comments towards the believer and their belief.

It's ok though...I'm sure I'll keep coming back for more.

Should I think positively and act that way when I see adults who believe and promote a God based on fantasy, miracles and magic?

I do not think so.
I see the waste of good minds and a disgrace to humanity.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

True beliefs don't go out of style my friend. Truth is, what most of us want is to be assured that Hell doesn't really exist so that we don't have to take responsibility for our own actions. News flash here, Hell exists and whether any of us want to accept that fact, makes no difference, it is what it is...

'civilized their view'....what does that even mean?

Take responsibility?

By using a scapegoat Jesus to pay for --your responsibility. Sigh.
Your whole theology is based on profiting from the murder of an innocent man and shedding your responsibilities.

I wonder what Jesus would think of you using cheep sexuality for your avatar and signature.
Ever think about that?

Regards
DL

 

[sexysadie]

Should I think positively and act that way when I see adults who believe and promote a God based on fantasy, miracles and magic?

I do not think so.
I see the waste of good minds and a disgrace to humanity.

Regards
DL

Well who cares what you see?!?! What if I told you that when I look at the way you post and act I see a waste of a perfectly good soul?