Epicurus.

[FreeWorkVest]

If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice

 

[pladecalvo]

God did not MAKE Adam eat the fruit and hide, Gos knew he would. Semantics

Before Adam was 'created' your god KNEW that he would eat the fruit. He also KNEW that Adam would lie about it. Your god planned it all..every last detail of it.So why are we being punished because Adam and Eve carried out the details, to the letter, of what your god planned?

The fruit gave knowledge of right and wrong, So when Adam lied to God, he knew he was doing wrong, but did it anyway. Once that happened, Adam was contaminated.

We are discussing BEFORE the fruit was consumed. Before they ate the fruit Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil or right or wrong. What your god did would be similar to you taking a young baby and telling it not to do something whilst knowing that the baby had no idea of the consequences of doing what you told it not to do......and then punishing that baby for eternity because it didn't understand what you were saying.

 

[pladecalvo]

God does not make us take a path, he only knows which path we are going to take. We are free to make any choice we want.

No we aren't...because if he KNOWS our choices then we can't change our minds. Let's get the old apple and orange out here. Tonight, you have in front of you an apple and an orange. Before you were born, your god KNEW that you would choose to eat the orange tonight. Can you make a free will decision to eat the apple instead of the orange? The answer can only be no because to eat the apple would prove god wrong in his absolute knowledge that you will eat the orange.

God knows you will chose atheism, he also knows if you will change your mind or not in your life, but he does not force you to make a choice, he gives you the tools to accept or reject his existence as YOU choose. Therefore, your free will is not abrogated in anyway.

That's not what I'm saying. If your god knew, even before I was born, that I would live and die atheist....can I become theist and prove god wrong?

 

[Peter Parka]

That's not what I'm saying. If your god knew, even before I was born, that I would live and die atheist....can I become theist and prove god wrong?

I guess not because God would know you would do that too, Christians really have their backs covered with these vague arguments! lol! In which case, all I would say to their god is "no one likes a smart arse!"

 

[pladecalvo]

You are argueing semantics, which is a waste of my time.

So to save wasting your time perhaps you would show me where in the Bible does it explain that free will is the God-given right of every person to choose whether he/she want to do it God's way?

 

[FreeWorkVest]

So to save wasting your time perhaps you would show me where in the Bible does it explain that free will is the God-given right of every person to choose whether he/she want to do it God's way?

You now want to change the parameters of or discussion. Done that mean you agree that prescience does no proclude choice?

 

[FreeWorkVest]

Before Adam was 'created' your god KNEW that he would eat the fruit. He also KNEW that Adam would lie about it. Your god planned it all..every last detail of it.So why are we being punished because Adam and Eve carried out the details, to the letter, of what your god planned?

We are discussing BEFORE the fruit was consumed. Before they ate the fruit Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil or right or wrong. What your god did would be similar to you taking a young baby and telling it not to do something whilst knowing that the baby had no idea of the consequences of doing what you told it not to do......and then punishing that baby for eternity because it didn't understand what you were saying.

Again, I have no idea why God had the tree there. Maybe God knew that the only way for man to successfully acheive the goal God had set for us, was for the tre, the fall and eventual redemption. God put the tree there for a reason.

Adam commited no sin until AFTER he ate the fruit. Eating the fruit was not a sin.

 

[FreeWorkVest]

No we aren't...because if he KNOWS our choices then we can't change our minds. Let's get the old apple and orange out here. Tonight, you have in front of you an apple and an orange. Before you were born, your god KNEW that you would choose to eat the orange tonight. Can you make a free will decision to eat the apple instead of the orange? The answer can only be no because to eat the apple would prove god wrong in his absolute knowledge that you will eat the orange.


That's not what I'm saying. If your god knew, even before I was born, that I would live and die atheist....can I become theist and prove god wrong?

No, because last I checked, God made no specific reference to your particular life timeline.

 

[Peter Parka]

Again, I have no idea why God had the tree there. Maybe God knew that the only way for man to successfully acheive the goal God had set for us, was for the tre, the fall and eventual redemption. God put the tree there for a reason.

Adam commited no sin until AFTER he ate the fruit. Eating the fruit was not a sin.

Genesis 2:17 (King James Version)

http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/?action=getVersionInfo&vid=9


But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die

So disobeying God wasn't a sin then? And how comes Adam didn't die the day he ate from it?

 

[All Else Failed]

When Adam lied to God, his seed was also cursed with that sin. That was why Jesus had to be born to a virgin woman, the burned of the first sin is carried with the man, not the woman

You do know that Adam and eve are myths right? Even St. Augustine said to not take the bible literally.

 

[pladecalvo]

You now want to change the parameters of or discussion. Done that mean you agree that prescience does no proclude choice?

I'm not changing any parameters. You accused me of semantics and said you didn't want to waste your time with it so I asking you to show where in the Bible it say that we have free-will so that we can ascertain whether this 'free-will' is anything more than your 'personal opinion'?

 

[pladecalvo]

You do know that Adam and eve are myths right?

That opens up a can of worms!!

 

[pladecalvo]

You do know that Adam and eve are myths right? Even St. Augustine said to not take the bible literally.

It would be interesting to find out how many theists here think that the Adam and Eve story is literal and how many think it's metaphor.

 

[Peter Parka]

It would be interesting to find out how many theists here think that the Adam and Eve story is literal and how many think it's metaphor.

I personally think its a load of old bollocks with serious flaws in the story, sets the tone for the rest of the Bible, lol

 

[pladecalvo]

So do I...but we're not theists Peter.

 

[Peter Parka]

So do I...but we're not theists Peter.

You forget, I am, I believe in some kind of god, just not one that religious people believe in, I see him/ her/ it as some kind of creator

 

[pladecalvo]

You forget, I am, I believe in some kind of god, just not one that religious people believe in, I see him/ her/ it as some kind of creator

Oh right! I didn't know that.

 

[luc154]

You forget, I am, I believe in some kind of god, just not one that religious people believe in, I see him/ her/ it as some kind of creator

Where do you get your information from then to know this god? How can any of us then know this god of yours?

 

[Peter Parka]

Wtf are you talking about? I never claimed to know god, you're the one who has been doing that.:unsure:

 

[luc154]

Wtf are you talking about? I never claimed to know god, you're the one who has been doing that.:unsure:

These are your words :'I believe in some kind of god'

My question: which kind of god? How can we know this god you believe in?