Epicurus.

[pladecalvo]

[FONT=&quot]Aphorisms of Epicurus[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
Either God wants to abolish evil and cannot,
or he can but does not want to,
or he cannot and does not want to,
or lastly he can and wants to.
If he wants to remove evil, and cannot,
he is not omnipotent;
If he can, but does not want to,
he is not benevolent;
If he neither can nor wants to,
he is neither omnipotent nor benevolent;
But if God can abolish evil and wants to,
how does evil exists?


How would you answer Epicurus? [FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

 

[FreeWorkVest]

Simply. Evil exists as punishment for lying to God. He gave us free will, and the choice to do right or wrong. He wishes for us to turn to him of our own free will.

Misery and evil exists purely as a reflection of the free willl he gave us.

 

[Peter Parka]

Evil exists as punishment for lying to God.

When did any of us ever do that?:unsure:

 

[FreeWorkVest]

When did any of us ever do that?:unsure:

When Adam lied to God, his seed was also cursed with that sin. That was why Jesus had to be born to a virgin woman, the burned of the first sin is carried with the man, not the woman

 

[Peter Parka]

When Adam lied to God, his seed was also cursed with that sin. That was why Jesus had to be born to a virgin woman, the burned of the first sin is carried with the man, not the woman

What did Adam lie to God about?

And that supposedly happened thousands of years ago and God is still punishing millions of people who had nothing to do with that other than being a distant relation? Talk about holding a grudge! Your god sounds like a right vindictive bastard to me!

 

[FreeWorkVest]

Not at all. God warned Adam not to eat from the tree of life. When Adam ate from the fruit of the tree, it contaminated his entire being. Adam's fell from perfection and could no longer live in God's prescence.

By Sending Jesus, his Son, God opened up a path into heaven.

 

[Peter Parka]

Not at all. God warned Adam not to eat from the tree of life. When Adam ate from the fruit of the tree, it contaminated his entire being. Adam's fell from perfection and could no longer live in God's prescence.

By Sending Jesus, his Son, God opened up a path into heaven.

If god is so perfect, why did he have to send his son?

And I am afraid I'd have to disagree with you about him not being vindictive, I cant help what my ancestors did so why should I be punished for it? I guess by that logic you feel that all white Americans should be punished for all eternity because of their ancestors involvement in the slave trade?

 

[pladecalvo]

Simply. Evil exists as punishment for lying to God. He gave us free will, and the choice to do right or wrong.

The Christian Bible rejects the idea of "free will."
"You saw me before I was born and scheduled each day of my life before I began to breathe. Every day was recorded in your book!" [Psalm 139:16]


If the above is true then no "free-will" decision can be made to change what is already recorded and we have pre-determination. Also, if I have free will, why can't I exercise that free will to lie to your god? Your god's idea of free will is:
You have free will to do as you wish but if you don't do as I say you will be destroyed.

He wishes for us to turn to him of our own free will.

If you subscribe to an omniscient deity then free-will is impossible.

 

[pladecalvo]

What did Adam lie to God about?

And that supposedly happened thousands of years ago and God is still punishing millions of people who had nothing to do with that other than being a distant relation? Talk about holding a grudge! Your god sounds like a right vindictive bastard to me!

:clap:clap The Christian Bible says that the sins of the father will not be visited on the son and visa-versa. Wonder what went wrong??

 

[FreeWorkVest]

If god is so perfect, why did he have to send his son?

And I am afraid I'd have to disagree with you about him not being vindictive, I cant help what my ancestors did so why should I be punished for it? I guess by that logic you feel that all white Americans should be punished for all eternity because of their ancestors involvement in the slave trade?

Because only a man free of sin could open the door for us. Only Jesus was free of sin, so he had to be born of Mary in order to maintain his sin free nature


God did not make adam eat of the fruit. We are in this world and forbidden the Garden of Eden because Adam is no longer pure. We cannot exist in God's presensce anymore because of Adam, not because of God. If He was vindictive, he would have started over.

 

[FreeWorkVest]

The Christian Bible rejects the idea of "free will."
"You saw me before I was born and scheduled each day of my life before I began to breathe. Every day was recorded in your book!" [Psalm 139:16]


If the above is true then no "free-will" decision can be made to change what is already recorded and we have pre-determination. Also, if I have free will, why can't I exercise that free will to lie to your god? Your god's idea of free will is:
You have free will to do as you wish but if you don't do as I say you will be destroyed.


If you subscribe to an omniscient deity then free-will is impossible.

Just because God knows what you will do doesnt mean you weren't free to make the choice

 

[Peter Parka]

Because only a man free of sin could open the door for us. Only Jesus was free of sin, so he had to be born of Mary in order to maintain his sin free nature

Why? If God is perfect then he sets the rules and can do what he wants, why did he set this one?

 

[FreeWorkVest]

Why? If God is perfect then he sets the rules and can do what he wants, why did he set this one?

IDK. Why do we have to poop?

 

[Peter Parka]

IDK. Why do we have to poop?

Because that's the way we evolved or were created depending on what you believe in.

Don't really see how that answers my question as to why God would put his son through pain and death unnecessarily though.

 

[pladecalvo]

God did not make adam eat of the fruit.

....but he knew he would, due to his omniscience. So if he knew Adam would eat the fruit, could Adam have stopped, thought for a moment and then said 'Nope, I'm not going to eat it' and thus prove your god wrong in his knowledge that he would eat it?

Also when Adam and Eve allegedly ate this fruit they had no idea of right and wrong.. ...yet your 'compassionate' god punishes them and us when they were unaware of the consequences due to their innocence. I must agree with Peter when he describes your god as "vindictive."

 

[FreeWorkVest]

....but he knew he would, due to his omniscience. So if he knew Adam would eat the fruit, could Adam have stopped, thought for a moment and then said 'Nope, I'm not going to eat it' and thus prove your god wrong in his knowledge that he would eat it?

Also when Adam and Eve allegedly ate this fruit they had no idea of right and wrong.. ...yet your 'compassionate' god punishes them and us when they were unaware of the consequences due to their innocence. I must agree with Peter when he describes your god as "vindictive."

Flawed logic. God did not MAKE Adam eat the fruit and hide, Gos knew he would. Semantics

The fruit gave knowledge of right and wrong, So when Adam lied to God, he knew he was doing wrong, but did it anyway. Once that happened, Adam was contaminated.

 

[Peter Parka]

If he knew Adam was going to eat from it though, why put it there and why use it as an excuse to punish loads of innocent people, your god sounds a complete sadist as well!
And what was so bad about eating a bit of fruit anyway?

 

[FreeWorkVest]

If he knew Adam was going to eat from it though, why put it there and why use it as an excuse to punish loads of innocent people, your god sounds a complete sadist as well!
And what was so bad about eating a bit of fruit anyway?

By eating of the fruit, Adam learned Good from Evil. The sin wasn't eating the fruit, the sin was lying to God about it. If Adam would have said "Yes, God, I did eat of the tree" then Adam would have been free of sin and not have to be banished.

I don't know why the tree had to be there, it was never explained. as far as I know.

 

[pladecalvo]

Just because God knows what you will do doesnt mean you weren't free to make the choice

Of course it does! The scripture I quoted say that your actions in your life are known even before you are born so how can you going to make any choices that will change what is known? For example, if your god KNOWS that I will be atheist all my life...... how is possible for me to prove him wrong and become theist?

 

[FreeWorkVest]

Of course it does! The scripture I quoted say that your actions in your life are known even before you are born so how can you going to make any choices that will change what is known? For example, if your god KNOWS that I will be atheist all my life...... how is possible for me to prove him wrong and become theist?

You are argueing semantics, which is a waste of my time. God does not make us take a path, he only knows which path we are going to take. We are free to make any choice we want.


God knows you will chose atheism, he also knows if you will change your mind or not in your life, but he does not force you to make a choice, he gives you the tools to accept or reject his existence as YOU choose. Therefore, your free will is not abrogated in anyway