Detainees, Even if Acquitted, Might Not Go Free

[kelvin070]

I am just quoting someone and I believe there is some truth in it.

Did the United States bring the attacks on the World Trade Center on itself? Many would say “yes.” Millions of people around the world were screaming “America has been hit!” This was not a shout of sorrow or pity, rather a shout of joy and triumph. America has a reputation of arrogance, ignorance and domination. This is what led to the attacks on September 11th.

 

[Alien Allen]

I am just quoting someone and I believe there is some truth in it.

Did the United States bring the attacks on the World Trade Center on itself? Many would say “yes.” Millions of people around the world were screaming “America has been hit!” This was not a shout of sorrow or pity, rather a shout of joy and triumph. America has a reputation of arrogance, ignorance and domination. This is what led to the attacks on September 11th.

Those who shouted with joy and triumph never were our friends. I don't believe they were the majority though. And anybody who thinks we did this to ourselves is a conspiracy nut. We are arrogant. So are a lot of countries. Ignorant perhaps, but no more so than others. Dominating?? I can see that although frankly I think the evidence is not really there to support it. At least not in the manner of say Great Britain in the old days and the USSR

 

[kelvin070]

Those who shouted with joy and triumph never were our friends. I don't believe they were the majority though. And anybody who thinks we did this to ourselves is a conspiracy nut. We are arrogant. So are a lot of countries. Ignorant perhaps, but no more so than others. Dominating?? I can see that although frankly I think the evidence is not really there to support it. At least not in the manner of say Great Britain in the old days and the USSR

Kinda strange you responded to my post but did not respond to Tangerine who also wrote abt american arrogance.

 

[Alien Allen]

Kinda strange you responded to my post but did not respond to Tangerine who also wrote abt american arrogance.

You are more fun to argue with

 

[kelvin070]

You are more fun to argue with

LOL, can you plse respond to her post too since we both commented on american arrogance.

 

[Accountable]

Those who shouted with joy and triumph never were our friends. I don't believe they were the majority though. And anybody who thinks we did this to ourselves is a conspiracy nut. We are arrogant. So are a lot of countries. Ignorant perhaps, but no more so than others. Dominating?? I can see that although frankly I think the evidence is not really there to support it. At least not in the manner of say Great Britain in the old days and the USSR

We dominate alright. We have military bases in something like 20 foreign countries. Not just troops, bases. The cold war's over. It's time for us to let other countries fend for themselves. Assist rather than defend.

 

[kelvin070]

We dominate alright. We have military bases in something like 20 foreign countries. Not just troops, bases. The cold war's over. It's time for us to let other countries fend for themselves. Assist rather than defend.

You cooly missed out on the american arrogance. Explain pls

 

[Tim]

We dominate alright. We have military bases in something like 20 foreign countries. Not just troops, bases. The cold war's over. It's time for us to let other countries fend for themselves. Assist rather than defend.

You bring up a very good point. The "cold war" is over... so can anyone tell me why we spend a trillion dollars a year on the military? Eisenhower warned against the military industrial complex and his fears about what it would do to the US.

 

[kelvin070]

We dominate alright. We have military bases in something like 20 foreign countries. Not just troops, bases. The cold war's over. It's time for us to let other countries fend for themselves. Assist rather than defend.

Can you allow Saudi Arabia to fend for themselves? Certainly not cuz you need their oil.

 

[Accountable]

You bring up a very good point. The "cold war" is over... so can anyone tell me why we spend a trillion dollars a year on the military? Eisenhower warned against the military industrial complex and his fears about what it would do to the US.

Reagan should have started dismantling the cold war machine, but the military became a glorified worker program, claiming to be the world's police force as an excuse to stay fat. It stood (I think) until Clinton did a little downsizing. Any bets that Obama will expand, not reduce, military spending?

 

[Tim]

I hope to hell that Obama goes in the right direction and down sizes the military to the appropriate size. But I'm not holding my breath, the military industrial complex is much more powerful than this or any other administration.

There have been some very wise men that believed that the US should have no standing army. Instead have our citizens trained and ready to be called up if needed, much like militias. I don't think we should go as far as that, but a very small elite force with a very large national guard force at the ready.

 

[Alien Allen]

We dominate alright. We have military bases in something like 20 foreign countries. Not just troops, bases. The cold war's over. It's time for us to let other countries fend for themselves. Assist rather than defend.

I supported Ron Paul

Need I say more

 

[Tangerine]

LOL, can you plse respond to her post too since we both commented on american arrogance.

Her? ?

 

[Alien Allen]

No - I don't need to clarify anything. I'm not the one who suggested that we HAVE a particular standard. That was you. And you didn't say it was something to STRIVE for, you said we have NEVER stood for it. That is a false statement.

MY point is that we have no right to hold ourselves up as high and mighty when our standards are considerably LOWER in the area of human rights, historically. That doesn't mean we can't STRIVE for better, but you can't say that we are already THERE with blights like these in our history. (I never even mentioned how we treated blacks for several hundred years.) It's totally hypocritical.

And I again say what has been "put into writing in our laws" is completely irrelevant in this debate because the people at issue are not subject to them. I think it's ludicrous to think that our laws governing our people are somehow enforceable or even acceptable to the rest of the world. THAT is a prime example of the "American arrogance" that some people believe is what got us into this mess in the first place.

Exactly what do you see as a solution to cleanse us finally of all these blights you speak of?

 

[Tangerine]

Exactly what do you see as a solution to cleanse us finally of all these blights you speak of?

I don't believe it's possible to ever "cleanse" away our history. Time will ease some, as generations die off who lived in and experienced it first-hand, but even that won't completely erase the bigotry and divisions that still exist today. Parents still pass down their antiquated, racists beliefs to children all the time. And in some ways, we just continue to repeat the cycles over and over. It's the same way our current immigration issue has manifested itself so that many Americans see any Latino person as "an illegal" who is a drain on our resources, stealing jobs from Americans, dirty people people who live 12 to a house, and aren't respectful enough to learn our language. The way stereotypes fester in this country make it clear that we are still no where near the "ideal" we wish to project about how we deal with people on a human level

 

[kelvin070]

Her? ?

Apologies - "his"

 

[Alien Allen]

I don't believe it's possible to ever "cleanse" away our history. Time will ease some, as generations die off who lived in and experienced it first-hand, but even that won't completely erase the bigotry and divisions that still exist today. Parents still pass down their antiquated, racists beliefs to children all the time. And in some ways, we just continue to repeat the cycles over and over. It's the same way our current immigration issue has manifested itself so that many Americans see any Latino person as "an illegal" who is a drain on our resources, stealing jobs from Americans, dirty people people who live 12 to a house, and aren't respectful enough to learn our language. The way stereotypes fester in this country make it clear that we are still no where near the "ideal" we wish to project about how we deal with people on a human level

So in other words we are never forgiven for the sins of the past despite making great changes.

As to the Latino thing I get your point about the stereo type. But then again I do not see blue eyed blondes coming across the border with Canada illegally. Illegals are draining our resources. Just ask anybody in the southwest that has to deal with it.

 

[Tangerine]

So in other words we are never forgiven for the sins of the past despite making great changes.

I think what I said was that we'll not be forgiven for past sins as long as we keep repeating them.

As to the Latino thing I get your point about the stereo type. But then again I do not see blue eyed blondes coming across the border with Canada illegally. Illegals are draining our resources. Just ask anybody in the southwest that has to deal with it.

The debate about our resources being drained is a good one - though like any debate there are many points that can be disputed. That's a whole other topic for another thread, perhaps. As to the topic at hand - the fact that you do not perceive that there are people in this country working and living without the proper visas and paperwork who are NOT from Latin America only proves my point. And more so, though the numbers are very hard to gather with any accuracy, there is certainly a large percentage of people from Mexico and other hispanic countries who ARE here legally, yet they are often faced with the same level of disdain and mistreatment simply because of their physical appearance and language skills.

 

[Minor Axis]

No - I don't need to clarify anything. I'm not the one who suggested that we HAVE a particular standard. That was you. And you didn't say it was something to STRIVE for, you said we have NEVER stood for it. That is a false statement.

Yes you do (need to clarify) if you want to have any credibility in this discussion. I am saying the the U.S. government and military have had a standard at least from post WWII, 60 years ago (maybe longer) on how to handle criminals and prisoners of War. Torture IS wrong. Habeas Corpus is a set standard. Holding people indefinitely without due legal process IS wrong. But when I say this, you counter with statements to the effect that is not our standard citing historical blights in an attempt to make the actions of the Bush Administration acceptable when they are nothing of the sort. Without citing our history, do you have an opinion on the correctness of how detainees in the War on Terror have been handled or not?

And I again say what has been "put into writing in our laws" is completely irrelevant in this debate because the people at issue are not subject to them. I think it's ludicrous to think that our laws governing our people are somehow enforceable or even acceptable to the rest of the world. THAT is a prime example of the "American arrogance" that some people believe is what got us into this mess in the first place.

Our laws are based on a standard whether you think it is irrelevant or not and the people we hold in custody are subject to our laws. It has nothing to do with American arrogance. Saying these people have no rights is a sad moral stance. If they are humans, they have rights. You position is very convenient for making excuses.

 

[Alien Allen]

I think what I said was that we'll not be forgiven for past sins as long as we keep repeating them.



The debate about our resources being drained is a good one - though like any debate there are many points that can be disputed. That's a whole other topic for another thread, perhaps. As to the topic at hand - the fact that you do not perceive that there are people in this country working and living without the proper visas and paperwork who are NOT from Latin America only proves my point. And more so, though the numbers are very hard to gather with any accuracy, there is certainly a large percentage of people from Mexico and other hispanic countries who ARE here legally, yet they are often faced with the same level of disdain and mistreatment simply because of their physical appearance and language skills.

Where did I say that only latinos were here illegally?

Of course there are others here illegally that are not Latino.

Of course there are latinos here legally.

so what?

the vast majority of the illegals though ARE latinos. And they are coming in thru Mexico.

If I am wrong then please provide the documentation.