Dead Beat Fathers

[GoldDust Woman]

Many people are put below the poverty level after garnishments.

That's just too bad, now isn't it. If you can't afford to pay for your children, then by God, DON'T make babies.

 

[The Man]

Note the bold. There is no "small town cost of living" anymore. We're in a small town... our gas is almost 4 bucks a gallon. Milk is flirting with 5 bucks a gallon. I don't care where a person lives - the cost of living is not cheap!

Debtors prison is a great idea. It's like raising a child and trying to teach them responsibility. Where there is no consequence, there is no lesson learned. Lock the dead-beats up each and every time they go into arrears and I bet you they'd find a way to pay each and every month when they get out!

Note the bold. There is no "small town cost of living" anymore. We're in a small town... our gas is almost 4 bucks a gallon. Milk is flirting with 5 bucks a gallon. I don't care where a person lives - the cost of living is not cheap!

True while that may be high...compare the cost of living in say New York city for instance after tossing in rent.
I didnt say things were cheap I said the cost of living in low compared to the average in the locale I mentioned.

Debtors prison is a great idea.

I disagree..As that means we should have locked up millions who rang up cards when the economy collapsed and had to let their houses go back to the banks.

It's like raising a child and trying to teach them responsibility.

I agree with teaching them responsibility...but with your debtors prison they themselves will be locked up at some point in their life more than likely.

Where there is no consequence, there is no lesson learned.

Then how are we going to repopulate?

Lock the dead-beats up each and every time they go into arrears and I bet you they'd find a way to pay each and every month when they get out

Things happen...layoffs vehicle failures.etc....not to mention you have stated there is a very high cost of living.
He also has to pay for rent...vehicle,gas food and all other associated costs of living.
When a family splits it now takes much more money to function...two houses to rent, 2 sets of utility bills, more cars...more driving more appliances.
What doesn't double is food and clothes...pretty much everything else doubles.

While I agree both should be caring for the child{morally}.
However....the punishment the states dishes out makes it more difficult to pay.
Lets face it....get locked up...lose job if you had one.
Now place and belongings are often lost.
Upon release no drivers license....which hinders job hunting...not to mention transportation will now be a problem to get back and forth to work.
They will have to wait two to four weeks to receive a paycheck.
Have to save for first month last month rent and deposit.
Utility deposits { will often be higher now as they had been to jail /couldnt pay and service was cut.}
How does any of this help the father give money to the babies momma?
It hinders not aids.
Additionally he now needs every dime he can get.....to further all the money that just got shit down the tubes as he restarts his life again went every where except to aid in the support of the child.

 

[The Man]

That's just too bad, now isn't it. If you can't afford to pay for your children, then by God, DON'T make babies.

This I agree with...however I do not believe in locking them up because they cant afford them and still have them.

But the liberal side of me says shouldn't a poor person be allowed to have a child without suffering criminal prosecution for lack of funds later?

 

[GoldDust Woman]

I totally disagree with your mindset regarding loser non-custodial parents. There is no defense for people who do not financially support their children. If you haven't noticed, I have no sympathy towards the losers. End of story.

 

[The Man]

I totally disagree with your mindset regarding loser non-custodial parents. There is no defense for people who do not financially support their children. If you haven't noticed, I have no sympathy towards the losers. End of story.

There is no defense for people who do not financially support their children.

Thats a pretty wide brush condemning the poor or those who are in between jobs...not to mention all that receive assistance.

I will agree that someone who makes decent money and does not help in supporting the child is a POS...but not a criminal as the debt was not created by fraudulent means.

 

[The Man]

Here is a typical case with 2 children with both making 2 k a month ...{close to average median income}..and average of 2 kids

His obligation is 1027 dollars {which can yet be even higher if she shows added expenses!!}
He will pay fed tax,state tax ,ss medicare Medicaid on the 2 grand ...about a third of his gross on 2 k..just say 700 bucks.
He is now netting about 300 bucks a month !!!!!....this is without behind behind on payments ..the fucking would be harder if he was behind.
Not enough to cover basic rent in most cases.
She will have kept her money{wage} {minus tax}..but much less taken out as she has dependents}...and the thousand he had to give her...thus her having roughly 8x the income he has when they both make the same wage !!
He is left with nothing to live off of.
Winning a custody case is often the difference between who goes to the "gutter"..and sadly often the goal.

 

[GoldDust Woman]

Thats a pretty wide brush condemning the poor or those who are in between jobs...not to mention all that receive assistance.

I will agree that someone who makes decent money and does not help in supporting the child is a POS...but not a criminal as the debt was not created by fraudulent means.

Who's condemning the poor? Surely not me! First off, if you're too poor to take of yourself, then don't make babies! And, if you become poor after making a baby, then you didn't budget your money correctly while you were working. It's called sacrifice. Telling yourself no to "wants", in order to have a nest egg for hard times.

You talk like a male who is in trouble for not paying his child support. :thumbdown

The debt is created by not paying what the court has ordered a non custodial parent to pay. When you don't pay the court ordered debt, it's called contempt. Contempt is against the law.

Contempt:

Law.

a. willful disobedience to or open disrespect for the rules or orders of a court (contempt of court) or legislative body.

b. an act showing such disrespect.



Get a freaking job and help support your kid(s). :mad

 

[The Man]

Who's condemning the poor? Surely not me! First off, if you're too poor to take of yourself, then don't make babies! And, if you become poor after making a baby, then you didn't budget your money correctly while you were working. It's called sacrifice. Telling yourself no to "wants", in order to have a nest egg for hard times.

You talk like a male who is in trouble for not paying his child support. :thumbdown

The debt is created by not paying what the court has ordered a non custodial parent to pay. When you don't pay the court ordered debt, it's called contempt. Contempt is against the law.

Contempt:

Law.

a. willful disobedience to or open disrespect for the rules or orders of a court (contempt of court) or legislative body.

b. an act showing such disrespect.



Get a freaking job and help support your kid(s). :mad

Who's condemning the poor? Surely not me!

You stated the following below which had a wide brush as I stated.

There is no defense for people who do not financially support their children

You yourself said the cost of living is high.
Then we have layoffs...companies that go under..unexpected expenses.
Unemployment has been double digits in many areas...certainly not the fault of the one who owes money....just a bad economy .

First off, if you're too poor to take of yourself, then don't make babies!

I tend to agree...but as said things change...no one is guaranteed financial stability for 20 years...nor to run into something unexpected.

And, if you become poor after making a baby, then you didn't budget your money correctly while you were working.

You must be referring to savings as a cushion......fair enough.
However you seem to be putting alot of requirements on having a baby?
Not be poor...and be well enough off to have a cushion for rough times.
You have excluded a very large percentage of the population of having the "right" to make babies IMO.

You talk like a male who is in trouble for not paying his child support. :thumbdown

Not at all..I just found the topic interesting.

The debt is created by not paying what the court has ordered a non custodial parent to pay. When you don't pay the court ordered debt, it's called contempt. Contempt is against the law.

Lack of paying support is a crime.{thats my beef}
But what crime has been committed originally to have a court order to pay?
Remember its being treated as criminal not civil.

Get a freaking job and help support your kid(s).

I dont have kids....this isnt about me.
You arent around much on here,,,if you were you would see I am very much an advocate on woman's right....and when its a gray area I tend to side with the women.

This thread here was created as I see abuse of the judicial system....thing is no one seems to care because it is a "mans problem"
If we were fucking women around the same way...you could be rest assured that women would be very vocal on the subject ...as well as men sticking up for the women as well.

 

[The Man]

Can someone tell me what crime has been committed by being a father?
We know they can be jailed for not paying...but what is the original crime?

Shit kinda reminds me of the patriot act..{blatantly wrong}..although I did not highly object to it in the beginning as it was my understanding it was a temporary act to aid in securing the nation from threats within our own borders.
It keeps getting renewed every year however.

Child support is just as fucked up legally as the patriot act.

 

[Joe the meek]

Can someone tell me what crime has been committed by being a father?

Just because you're a male and can screw to make babies doesn't necessarily make you a father. If the courts have to come to you for money in the first place, you weren't a father to begin with IMO.

 

[GoldDust Woman]

Child support is just as fucked up legally as the patriot act.

You think it doesn't cost anything to feed a child? Clothe a growing child? Pay for medical insurance? Dental? Braces? Sports? School supplies? Insurance deductibles? Lunch money at school? Just to name a few?

Seriously.

 

[Tim]

Can someone tell me what crime has been committed by being a father?
We know they can be jailed for not paying...but what is the original crime?

Shit kinda reminds me of the patriot act..{blatantly wrong}..although I did not highly object to it in the beginning as it was my understanding it was a temporary act to aid in securing the nation from threats within our own borders.
It keeps getting renewed every year however.

Child support is just as fucked up legally as the patriot act.

Can someone tell me what crime has been committed by being a father?

There is no crime in being a father

We know they can be jailed for not paying...but what is the original crime?

Original crime? There is no original crime.

How do you not understand support ordered payments?

The support of a child is the responsibility of both parents. That included the financial support needed to raise that child. If the parents aren't required to financially support their own child, then who? Should you support those children with your tax dollars?
So if the financial support of children is the responsibility of the parents, then what do we do as a society if one of them decides to walk away from it?
Well, as a society we have decided to hold the absent parent responsible for the financial support of their child. So family court will decide what amount is fair based on many factors including income and previous lifestyle. Once the court sets the amount a court order is placed in effect. If you violate that court order (ie not making payments) you will be brought in before the judge to explain yourself. If the judge feels that you are trying to live up to your obligations, the order may be adjusted. But if you continue to violate the court order, you will be arrested and put in jail for contempt of court. Not for being a father.

 

[The Man]

Just because you're a male and can screw to make babies doesn't necessarily make you a father. If the courts have to come to you for money in the first place, you weren't a father to begin with IMO.

Just because you're a male and can screw to make babies doesn't necessarily make you a father.

It is the rogue definition of a father.....Your sperm you are the father.
Actually you made a statement which also reflects another abuse of the system.
The burden is on the plaintiff to show evidence to substantiate their case.
However this is disregarded and you are "the father" because she says so...it is up to you to prove it is not your baby.
We have DNA now...but can you imagine the fucking men took before DNA become mainstream?

If the courts have to come to you for money in the first place, you weren't a father to begin with IMO.

LOL.
Its pretty normal.
Woman files for support....court proceeds.
You can give her all the money you want Joe...its considered a gift...as it didnt run through the agency first.

 

[The Man]

You think it doesn't cost anything to feed a child? Clothe a growing child? Pay for medical insurance? Dental? Braces? Sports? School supplies? Insurance deductibles? Lunch money at school? Just to name a few?

Seriously.

Where have I stated it does not cost anything to raise a child.

 

[The Man]

There is no crime in being a father



Original crime? There is no original crime.

How do you not understand support ordered payments?

The support of a child is the responsibility of both parents. That included the financial support needed to raise that child. If the parents aren't required to financially support their own child, then who? Should you support those children with your tax dollars?
So if the financial support of children is the responsibility of the parents, then what do we do as a society if one of them decides to walk away from it?
Well, as a society we have decided to hold the absent parent responsible for the financial support of their child. So family court will decide what amount is fair based on many factors including income and previous lifestyle. Once the court sets the amount a court order is placed in effect. If you violate that court order (ie not making payments) you will be brought in before the judge to explain yourself. If the judge feels that you are trying to live up to your obligations, the order may be adjusted. But if you continue to violate the court order, you will be arrested and put in jail for contempt of court. Not for being a father.

Original crime? There is no original crime.

Agreed.
That voids your following argument in the rest of your post...its merely a "he should" argument...{of which I agree}
But you have not shown the elements of a crime Tim.

 

[Tim]

It is a crime to violate a court order

 

[The Man]

It is a crime to violate a court order

Tim for a debt to be a crime it needs to be obtained by fraudulent means.
Where is the fraudulent crime here?...please list the elements of the crime.

Let me give you an example...hot checks/ crime.....pay or go stay behind bars.
Failure to make car payments after loss of job....not a crime...not a criminal offense.
Just as you dont get jailed for CC debt..student loan debt..hospital debt....you can get garnished yes..but dont go to jail if you lose your job.


But to show the further fucking in the system...jail{punishment} is to pay off a criminal debt where applicable.
While Child support is treated like a crime...the punishment does not pay off the debt...not only is the old debt still there it grows as well.

 

[GoldDust Woman]

I dont have kids....

Child support is just as fucked up legally as the patriot act.

You're not educated enough to even be having this conversation.

Experience is the voice of reason regarding this topic.

 

[Tim]

Tim for a debt to be a crime it needs to be obtained by fraudulent means.
Where is the fraudulent crime here?...please list the elements of the crime.

Let me give you an example...hot checks/ crime.....pay or go stay behind bars.
Failure to make car payments after loss of job....not a crime...not a criminal offense.

Try to follow along here...

You don't go to jail because you have a debt (unpaid child support)
You go to jail because you violated a court order.

If the court orders you to pay for a window that you broke with your baseball and you fail to pay. The judge has the power to put you in jail for violating a court order, not because you broke the window...

do you understand???

 

[The Man]

You're not educated enough to even be having this conversation.

Experience is the voice of reason regarding this topic.

One doesnt have to have kids to understand the abuse of the system....Actually I am able to look at it unbiased as I have nothing to gain or lose.
You have already shown bias in many of your posts due to your personal experiences.