Credible critics of the official account of 9/11

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edgray

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I can see Bush & Co. having intelligence that some planes will be hijacked, maybe even knowing the full plan, and deciding to allow it. That's a far cry from setting explosive and planning a controlled demolition of two of the tallest building in the world.

Bldg 7 seems to be different, though. I don't have the interest or energy to chase down Mr Silverstein, but it seems awful strange that he gets possession in the summer of '01, just before #7 collapses.

I would agree - it's possible they knew and let it happen - they were already planning a war in the Middle East and that gave them a good excuse to get it started.

I don't think I'd credit them with enough intelligence to actually plant bombs in the buildings and help with the event. They've barely been able to keep anything else secret.

That said, if we look at who stood to benefit from 9/11... Mr Silverstein got his insurance pay out, thats a benefit for a building that was half empty (Not 100% sure on this but I seem to remember the buildings weren't exactly profitable...) and the other people that benefited were of course Dubya and his government...
 
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Accountable

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I would agree - it's possible they knew and let it happen - they were already planning a war in the Middle East and that gave them a good excuse to get it started.

I don't think I'd credit them with enough intelligence to actually plant bombs in the buildings and help with the event. They've barely been able to keep anything else secret.

That said, if we look at who stood to benefit from 9/11... Mr Silverstein got his insurance pay out, thats a benefit for a building that was half empty (Not 100% sure on this but I seem to remember the buildings weren't exactly profitable...) and the other people that benefited were of course Dubya and his government...
Benefited from #7's collapse? How?
 

Accountable

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not just from #7, sorry, should've been clearer, I meant from the whole 9/11 event. It gave them a damned good excuse to launch their Middle East campaign.
Which they didn't actually use to invade Iraq, only Afghanistan. Nevertheless, (huh, don't get to use that word often :)) That doesn't gie a reason for purposely demolishing #7.
 

MoonOwl

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For those who like to answer questions, here's a bunch for ya:


All In One Chunk - 9/11 Basic Questions-WRH 9/11 Index-Questions for Michael Moore


Don't mind me if I don't hang around and wait on those concrete answers :)

Accountable, I used to have a listing way back in 2002 or 03. The NSA had offices in 7 as did a couple of other initial agencies. If I remember correctly, Rudy moved offices there that year too... It's been so long ago and all the links I had died w/the board they were posted on.

As the link I posted shows there are many real questions on a range of topics that remain unanswered to this day. Perhaps if real answers were given to most of them, thinking people's curiosity would be satisfied?

What's interesting is just how many people still don't realize Building 7 even came down... Where did these people get their news? The corporate media?
 

edgray

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Which they didn't actually use to invade Iraq, only Afghanistan. Nevertheless, (huh, don't get to use that word often :)) That doesn't gie a reason for purposely demolishing #7.

Well the initial invasion was Afghanistan, but they certainly used 9/11, and supposed links to Iraq, for that invasion.
 

nova

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JFC I am now convinced people will believe any old stupid bullshit.... :24:

Molten iron:

1. I've never seen any evidence there was actual molten iron, no pictures and no quotes from anybody but conspiracy nuts.

2. If it was there, there are several potential explanations that I can think of based off my high school chemistry class oh so long ago.
a: Its entirely possible at high temperatures (say above ~500C) for large pieces of iron to enter exothermic fast oxidation. If you don't believe iron will burn, put a match to a piece of steel wool and see what happens. Its a function of heat transfer, surface area and volume but even larger pieces can be coaxed into burning at sufficient temp.

b: The WTC was full of sheetrock(drywall) which is made out of gypsum. Subjected to sufficient heat, gypsum decomposes into several compounds including sulphur dioxide. Sulphur reacts with steel to form Iron Sulphide (FeS) which are known for the ease with which they combust.

Thats two reactions that could continue to produce heat for quite a while and I'm sure there are probably more given the volume and variety of material in the wreckage.

Silversteins $15,000,000 investment turned into a $2,000,000,000 payout in insurance.

Yeah he put up $15 million of his own money coupled with another $3.535 Billion from his company and a partner company.

$2 Billion insurance payout - $3.535 Billion Total Investment = -$1.535 Billion

Oh and BTW, like lots of insurance, they don't get to pocket the money, it has to go into rebuilding, which cost estimates pegged at north of $6 billion a few years ago.

Thats a helluva loss for a genius level conspiracy. If I was a conspiracy investor I'd sue for mis-management... :24:

For anybody that thinks thermite was used, find me a working mechanism that would allow thermite to cut horizontally through a large vertical beam. It has to have been demonstrated to work not just a drawing on a piece of paper or a concept.

For the explosive demolition believers, I'd love an explanation for how the conspirators were ninja enough to sneak around inside a building with several thousand workers such that nobody ever sees anything suspicious in the weeks or months leading up to the attack. :ninja

Either that or explain to me just who the hell was brave enough to run around structurally damaged buildings that are on fire planting explosives while their evil genius boss is sitting with their finger on the big red button. :eek


As far as the collapse of WTC7... The NIST report has been shot full of holes by structural engineers.

Who? What Civil Engineer PE has gone on record with their own peer reviewed analysis that contradicts NIST and where is the paper?

The only independent paper that I've been able to find that managed to make it into a journal of record confirms the NIST. Again, these behaviors are well understood and if the analysis was wrong, every PE in the land would be talking about it. There would be papers flying all over the place tearing into the NIST report, but strangely enough, there arent'...

The raw data that was used for the NIST modeling has not been released and will not be released.

What data are you talking about? The properties and behavior of steel are well know. Having read a fair portion of the NIST report, their work is fairly easily replicated using off the shelf analysis software and the contents of the report. Steel is steel, fire is fire, they didn't use any special super secret data in their analysis, its all readily available from any engineering textbook.

The original blueprints for the building have gone missing.

A. I find that hard to believe.

B. Lets assume they were "lost" on purpose. What exactly does that gain anybody involved? WTC 7 was designed and built in the 80s. The guys that did the design are still alive and kicking and probably the majority are still working. If the NIST or anybody else lied about the way the place was put together, don't you think one of the guys who actually did the design might pop up and say "Hey it wasn't like that." :nod:
 
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nova

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http://www-math.mit.edu/~bazant/WTC/WTC-asce.pdf

In stage 1 (Fig. 1), the conflagration caused by the aircraft fuel spilled into the structure
causes the steel of the columns to be exposed to sustained temperatures apparently exceeding
800.C. The heating is probably accelerated by a loss of the protective thermal insulation of
steel during the initial blast. At such temperatures, structural steel suffers a decrease of
yield strength and exhibits significant viscoplastic deformation (i.e., creep—an increase of
deformation under sustained load). This leads to creep buckling of columns (e.g., Baˇzant
and Cedolin 1991, Sec. 9), which consequently lose their load carrying capacity (stage 2).
Once more than about a half of the columns in the critical floor that is heated most suffer
buckling (stage 3), the weight of the upper part of the structure above this floor can no
longer be supported, and so the upper part starts falling down onto the lower part below the
critical floor, gathering speed until it impacts the lower part. At that moment, the upper
part has acquired an enormous kinetic energy and a significant downward velocity. The
vertical impact of the mass of the upper part onto the lower part (stage 4) applies enormous
vertical dynamic load on the underlying structure, far exceeding its load capacity, even if it
is not heated. This causes failure of an underlying multi-floor segment of the tower (stage 4),
in which the failure of the connections of the floor-carrying trusses to the columns is either
accompanied or quickly followed by buckling of the core columns and overall buckling of the
framed tube, with the buckles probably spanning the height of many floors (stage 5, at right),
and the upper part possibly getting wedged inside an emptied lower part of the framed tube
(stage 5, at left). The buckling is initially plastic but quickly leads to fracture in the plastic
hinges. The part of building lying beneath is then impacted again by an even larger mass
falling with a greater velocity, and the series of impacts and failures then proceeds all the
way down (stage 5).
2

And the figures

http://www-math.mit.edu/~bazant/WTC/WTCfig-asce.pdf
 
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nova

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The one big name amongst conspricy theorists, namely Jones, the physics professor from BYU, has a peer reviewed paper too. It was peer reviewed in the same "academic journal" that did this

Talkback on Library Journal

In an Open Access (OA) version of the 1996 Sokal affair, when a hoax article was accepted by an academic journal, Cornell University librarian and graduate student Phil Davis successfully submitted a manuscript full of gibberish and credited to pseudonymous authors at The Center for Research in Applied Phrenology to The Open Information Science Journal (TOISCIJ), which “claims to enforce peer-review.”
 

Accountable

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Silversteins $15,000,000 investment turned into a $2,000,000,000 payout in insurance.
Right, but if you'll notice, I'd bolded the portion about "Dubya and his government" benefiting. How did "Dubya and his government" benefit from the collapse of #7?
 

edgray

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Right, but if you'll notice, I'd bolded the portion about "Dubya and his government" benefiting. How did "Dubya and his government" benefit from the collapse of #7?

Not specifically from the collapse of tower 7, but the whole of the 9/11 tragedy. The more carnage, the easier it was to convince the public that war was needed. That's what Dubya and his govt wanted - a war in the Middle East.
 

Accountable

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Not specifically from the collapse of tower 7, but the whole of the 9/11 tragedy. The more carnage, the easier it was to convince the public that war was needed. That's what Dubya and his govt wanted - a war in the Middle East.
They could've gotten that without the clumsy afterthought of #7 getting the conspiracy theorists' collective dander up. Why was collapsing #7 specifically important to Bush & Co, if they were the ones that set it up?
 

edgray

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They could've gotten that without the clumsy afterthought of #7 getting the conspiracy theorists' collective dander up. Why was collapsing #7 specifically important to Bush & Co, if they were the ones that set it up?

I'm really not sure. What offices were in tower 7?
 

All Else Failed

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Also, if any of you have ever seen a building demolition in real life (I have twice), you'll notice LOUD FUCKING EXPLOSIONS in a series of waves, knocking out important supporting structures both underneath, around and throughout the building.


Do you know how much explosives it would have taken to bring down such massive buildings? You would have heard LOUD FUCKING EXPLOSIONS going off for several minutes. There is absolutely no sound like this recorded.
 

Tim

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Also, if any of you have ever seen a building demolition in real life (I have twice), you'll notice LOUD FUCKING EXPLOSIONS in a series of waves, knocking out important supporting structures both underneath, around and throughout the building.


Do you know how much explosives it would have taken to bring down such massive buildings? You would have heard LOUD FUCKING EXPLOSIONS going off for several minutes. There is absolutely no sound like this recorded.

Apparently it wouldn't take much seeing how a few gallons of gas and subsequent fire could bring down the same building. :dunno
 

BadBoy@TheWheel

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What's crazy is I don't think it was an "inside job", but I think there was a lot of up-front information, and I do think it was a horrible thing, and I am not willing to believe the administration MADE IT HAPPEN. BUT Not one of those fuckers was from Iraq ;)

Just sayin'
 

nova

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Apparently it wouldn't take much seeing how a few gallons of gas and subsequent fire could bring down the same building. :dunno

Is it that fucking hard to imagine that steel reacts different to a high intensity pressure wave (an explosion) as compared to exposure to fire for extended periods? I mean seriously. Gimme a fucking break here....

If you want a relatively controlled collapse from an fairly intact building (like what is claimed happened with WTC 7) then yeah, you need a lot of fucking explosives to overcome all the INTACT load transfer paths.

If you want a progressive failure of an otherwise compromised structure (like what REALLY happened on WTC 7) then no it really doesn't take a lot of fire to cause a collapse because it doesn't take much thermal weakening to overcome the remaining structure that has assumed the complete load.

And seriously? A few gallons of fuel? A B767 holds nearly 24,000 gallons of fuel, not to mention the ruptured fuel lines going to the buildings backup generators and all the other combustible materials in a typical office building.
 

Accountable

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I'm really not sure. What offices were in tower 7?
GS gave this list. I have no idea if it's just #7 or the whole complex.
Securities and Exchange Commission, IRS, United States Secret Service, Immigration and Naturalization Service, Department of Defense, CIA...these are just some of them that occupied the building. I'm sure there's a lot of dirty work that maybe needed some cleaning up...
 
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