Can you know God without understanding or recognizing his perfect works?

[Maldoror]

I did not interpret it's logic based on a God but simply on nature.

Instead of my repeating myself here, please see the post above.

Let me add what another poster said.

"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

I am, of course, not convinced that "all things have been created for some end"...operative word being "created", operative assumption being "intentional". But, if they were created, assuming the "creator" had enough foresight / insight that he wasn't just guessing, then it would have to represent the best possible solution, even if it appears to be imperfect from our viewpoint. So, having stated my disclaimer, I would tend to agree with that quote.

I submit that God had no other choice but to create a universe exactly like this one...one that looks curiously like a universe with no God in it...and that God has a very good reason for doing so...and that that reason is not very difficult to understand...but it requires thinking outside the human box to get there.

Regards
DL

so you're assuming a creator for the sake of this argument?

since there is no creator and it's all nature's work, then I'd agree that things cannot be any other way, which is probably close to what you're saying, but I don't see the reason for a qualitative description. it's not the best or the worst world possible, it's the only world possible so all we can do is love it, which brings me to Nietzsche's amor fati.

"I want to learn more and more to see as beautiful what is necessary in things; then I shall be one of those who make things beautiful. Amor fati: let that be my love henceforth! I do not want to wage war against what is ugly. I do not want to accuse; I do not even want to accuse those who accuse. Looking away shall be my only negation. And all in all and on the whole: some day I wish to be only a Yes-sayer."

 

[Greatest I am]

so you're assuming a creator for the sake of this argument?

since there is no creator and it's all nature's work, then I'd agree that things cannot be any other way, which is probably close to what you're saying, but I don't see the reason for a qualitative description. it's not the best or the worst world possible, it's the only world possible so all we can do is love it, which brings me to Nietzsche's amor fati.

"I want to learn more and more to see as beautiful what is necessary in things; then I shall be one of those who make things beautiful. Amor fati: let that be my love henceforth! I do not want to wage war against what is ugly. I do not want to accuse; I do not even want to accuse those who accuse. Looking away shall be my only negation. And all in all and on the whole: some day I wish to be only a Yes-sayer."

The other poster, as well as myself, have included a God neither of us believe in just to entice any theist who wants to say that things are not as perfect or the best that they could be.

Most theists believe we live in some kind of evil filled imperfect environment, yet their God is said to create all things perfect.

Theists, I think, know that to disagree they would have to disagree with scripture and that is why few are trying to refute my claim.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Humans may want the best for ourselves, but we don't always find it...the analogy falls flat for that reason.
I also think that something can be infinitely better and worse than it is, no matter what it is, and perfection could never be achieved.

Not finding it does not refute that we seek it.

Regards
DL

 

[Panacea]

Not finding it does not refute that we seek it.

Regards
DL

Seeking perfection and finding perfection are not the same, that was my point.

 

[BornReady]

Theists, I think, know that to disagree they would have to disagree with scripture and that is why few are trying to refute my claim.

A Christian would claim God created a perfect world but it became imperfect through no fault of God's. Christians usually blame women, a talking snake, or a magical fruit/apple/whatever. Anyway, even if you could get agreement from most Christians, that wouldn't mean much because, as you pointed out, they are doctrinally predisposed to believe God is perfect.

 

[Minor Axis]

Can you know God without understanding or recognizing his perfect works?

The whole notion of knowing and following God, is to know how he works and thinks, tied to a belief that he is perfect in all things and has the miracle at hand to create things the way he wants.

I don't personally believe the world as we know it is perfect, nor getting more perfect. Thinking about the world in terms of how vast time has spanned, and looking into what we can predict/guess from the future, it appears we have been privy to the best part of the world's history thus far, but it is soon to degrade, likely culminating in human extinction. I find a lot of people argue that the world is perfect because it exists (I find it nonsensical), and proclaim it's perfection is an obvious result of a perfect influence, but I doubt many of those people actually think every single thing about the world is perfect. They shouldn't, at least.

I am also not prone to believing there is a "him" doing any "work" or having done it in the past, so I suppose I do not fit the themes of this argument at all.

Maybe it boils down to the definition of "perfect"? It can be argued we exist in a perfect universe as far as how it functions. The problem is when we try to assign credit to the creator of universe, especially when it comes to "knowing" the intentions of any such creator. We don't know, so let's stop pretending to know.

 

[Peter Parka]

Maybe it boils down to the definition of "perfect"? It can be argued we exist in a perfect universe as far as how it functions. The problem is when we try to assign credit to the creator of universe, especially when it comes to "knowing" the intentions of any such creator. We don't know, so let's stop pretending to know.

If you believe that god created everything, it's a pretty weak argument to argue that it depends on your definition of perfect. I dont think any sane person would argue that "gods creations" of Hitler, Stalin, bin Laden and countless other evil people throughout history could be perfect.

 

[Minor Axis]

If you believe that god created everything, it's a pretty weak argument to argue that it depends on your definition of perfect. I dont think any sane person would argue that "gods creations" of Hitler, Stalin, bin Laden and countless other evil people throughout history could be perfect.

I disagree with you Peter. It all boils down to the reference point being used. 1)a perfect functioning universe 2) a perfect environment to learn 3) a perfect environment to discover God 4) etc.

 

[BornReady]

I disagree with you Peter. It all boils down to the reference point being used.

I don't understand. Are you saying Hitler, Stalin and bin Laden were perfect?

 

[Pet Sounds]

If you could comprehend higher intelligence, you would be higher intelligence. We couldn't understand the thoughts or aims of an intelligence on the level of a God, anymore than an ant could understand ours.

Franics Bacon, the father of the scientific method and modern philosophy, and also in my avatar...thought that knowing god was to know his natural works work too. To study them. Like knowing how atoms work, how chemicals react, etc... the natural forces of earth and the universe. God is there too. Bacon, Newton, and others were scientists just trying to give the most accurate account of God's handiwork. To give justice to it by deciphering it properly. Which in Bacon's view was by studying the world empirically.

I HAD rather believe all the fables in the Legend, and the Talmud, and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind. And therefore, God never wrought miracle, to convince atheism, because his ordinary works convince it. It is true, that a little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism; but depth in philosophy bringeth men’s minds about to religion.

-Bacon

 

[Minor Axis]

I don't understand. Are you saying Hitler, Stalin and bin Laden were perfect?

Did I mention them?

Perfect: Verb: Make (something) completely free from faults or defects, or as close to such a condition as possible: "his bowling technique is perfect".

So in this case is this man perfect? No, but his bowling technique is perfect. When speaking of perfection, you must consider the point of reference. As a functional system, the Universe might be called perfect, and as far as our frame of reference, it might appear perfect. However, when dealing with infinity, do we have the ability to ascertain what is perfect? Not really.

If you could comprehend higher intelligence, you would be higher intelligence. We couldn't understand the thoughts or aims of an intelligence on the level of a God, anymore than an ant could understand ours.

Franics Bacon, the father of the scientific method and modern philosophy, and also in my avatar...thought that knowing god was to know his natural works work too. To study them. Like knowing how atoms work, how chemicals react, etc... the natural forces of earth and the universe. God is there too. Bacon, Newton, and others were scientists just trying to give the most accurate account of God's handiwork. To give justice to it by deciphering it properly. Which in Bacon's view was by studying the world empirically.
-Bacon

Call it God if it makes you happy, but this is a very long way from knowing God, regardless of what you imagine. Until I can see something substantial, the thing called God could be responsible for the creation of the universe, but it remains an abstract unknown without specific characteristics and intentions.

 

[Pet Sounds]

Did I mention them?

Perfect: Verb: Make (something) completely free from faults or defects, or as close to such a condition as possible: "his bowling technique is perfect".

So in this case is this man perfect? No, but his bowling technique is perfect. When speaking of perfection, you must consider the point of reference. As a functional system, the Universe might be called perfect, and as far as our frame of reference, it might appear perfect. However, when dealing with infinity, do we have the ability to ascertain what is perfect? Not really.



Call it God if it makes you happy, but this is a very long way from knowing God, regardless of what you imagine.

Call what God if I am happy? And I said we couldn't comprehend God.

The rest of your post is just as seneless. How does the world look perfect? And what does infinity have to do with anything? Certainly nothing to do with perfection. Is one piece of wood any less perfect than infinite amount of pieces of wood? Is one perfect action done once, less perfect than a a perfect action done to infinity? They are all perfect. Where does infinity come into play here?

 

[Minor Axis]

Call what God if I am happy? And I said we couldn't comprehend God.

The rest of your post is just as seneless. How does the world look perfect? And what does infinity have to do with anything? Certainly nothing to do with perfection. Is one piece of wood any less perfect than infinite amount of pieces of wood? Is one perfect action done once, less perfect than a a perfect action done to infinity? They are all perfect. Where does infinity come into play here?

You really think my post makes no sense? Well, I'm sorry, I did not mean "you", I used it as a general term. "It" is the force that created the Universe that some like to call God. And when speaking of perfection, infinity has everything to do with it. What we view can appear perfect, but there is a lot we can't see, therefore we don't know about the absolute perfection of our universe.

So are you Christian, Atheist, Agnostic or other? Do you believe in God? Does God have specific characteristics and affection for us or is it completely unknown? I'm just trying to verify where you are coming from in this discussion. If we can't comprehend God, what can we comprehend of it?

 

[Peter Parka]

Did I mention them?

Perfect: Verb: Make (something) completely free from faults or defects, or as close to such a condition as possible: "his bowling technique is perfect".

So in this case is this man perfect? No, but his bowling technique is perfect. When speaking of perfection, you must consider the point of reference. As a functional system, the Universe might be called perfect, and as far as our frame of reference, it might appear perfect. However, when dealing with infinity, do we have the ability to ascertain what is perfect? Not really.



Call it God if it makes you happy, but this is a very long way from knowing God, regardless of what you imagine. Until I can see something substantial, the thing called God could be responsible for the creation of the universe, but it remains an abstract unknown without specific characteristics and intentions.

Sorry but that has nothing to do with what I said and is just a distracting post to get away from you not answering the question. No one is talking about god being perfect at just one thing. Christians widely accept he is perfect at everything. So once again, seeing the evil people I mentioned are supposed to be gods creation and are clearly far from perfect, how do you still validate that god is perfect?

 

[Zorak]

Christian's get round the perfection thing by saying that Satan\the snake destroyed the perfection of man in the Garden.

But a perfect being wouldn't have accepted the apple.
And a perfect God wouldn't have left it in plain reach of an imperfect pair.

God is many things in the Bible, but perfect? He doesn't even come close. I bet Hitler didn't ask Goering to kill him a son.

 

[Peter Parka]

Yup. Seeing that Satan/ the serpent is supposed to be gods creation too, that invalidates that argument as well.

 

[Pet Sounds]

Christian's get round the perfection thing by saying that Satan\the snake destroyed the perfection of man in the Garden.

But a perfect being wouldn't have accepted the apple.
And a perfect God wouldn't have left it in plain reach of an imperfect pair.

God is many things in the Bible, but perfect? He doesn't even come close. I bet Hitler didn't ask Goering to kill him a son.

God could just said to be testing them in those cases. Nothing to do with a lack of his own perfection. God clearly only uses the power of persuasion, simply forcing things on people kind of defeats the purpose of what is trying to be accomplished. Just because he doesn't stop people from eating apples, or killing others, doesn't mean he can't.

"To say it another way, God has a will in everything, but not everything that occurs is God's will."

 

[Panacea]

Maybe it boils down to the definition of "perfect"? It can be argued we exist in a perfect universe as far as how it functions. The problem is when we try to assign credit to the creator of universe, especially when it comes to "knowing" the intentions of any such creator. We don't know, so let's stop pretending to know.

I still don't think functioning = perfection, even in our universe. It appears to me perfection is a continuum, and there is no telling where our universe falls.

I have always found it incredibly humorous when anyone says they "know god" or have any sort of idea "why" anything is the way it is. I understand it's soothing purposes for some individuals, but...eh.

 

[Tim]

God could just said to be testing them in those cases. Nothing to do with a lack of his own perfection. God clearly only uses the power of persuasion, simply forcing things on people kind of defeats the purpose of what is trying to be accomplished. Just because he doesn't stop people from eating apples, or killing others, doesn't mean he can't.

"To say it another way, God has a will in everything, but not everything that occurs is God's will."

How can a god test anyone/thing? Wouldn't he ALWAYS know the outcome before the test was ever started?
The problem with these type of questions is that we ask them from the perspective of god then we try to answer them from a human perspective.

A god that is all-knowing cannot create something that has free will, it will only have the illusion of free will since every action was fully known before the creation.

 

[Diggin Deep]

How can a god test anyone/thing? Wouldn't he ALWAYS know the outcome before the test was ever started?
The problem with these type of questions is that we ask them from the perspective of god then we try to answer them from a human perspective.

A god that is all-knowing cannot create something that has free will, it will only have the illusion of free will since every action was fully known before the creation.

As I have said before, I believe...

The one thing that has been presented to me that I tend to lean towards is this - God only knows the future to the extent the future is knowable, but He's given us as free agents a freedom to affect how things play out (but would not be caught off guard by our decisions).

In my opinion, God does have a plan (His will) for me, for us - to believe in, to serve, and to have a personal and eternal relationship with Him. I believe that is the point to which He knows regarding the individual. Because of free will, we are able to choose which road we will take. To truly believe that God knows how everything will play out for each individual contradicts the whole basis of free will, our existence, and the purpose of Jesus Christ.

In my opinion, God is all-knowing in the regards - the world will end, how it will end, that some will follow the path to Heaven and others - to Hell...and that is the part that is unknown and left for us to to decide.

This is a very complex issue and I could be wrong in my opinion stated above. Fate is usually thought of as a predetermined course of events beyond human control. A typical response to a belief in fate is resignation—if we can’t change destiny, then why even try? Whatever happens, happens, and we can’t do anything about it. This is called “fatalism,” and it is not biblical.

God's "perfect plan, divine plan or predetermined plan" is that His creation would accept His Son as their Savior, conform to His likeness and spend an eternity with Him in Heaven. Scripture teaches that we choose to have faith. The often repeated command in Scripture to believe implies that we do have a choice in the matter. “Be not faithless, but believing” (John 20:27; see also Acts 16:31; 19:4). He has chosen to give us a free will, and He has created a moral universe in which the law of cause-and-effect is a reality. The Bible teaches that God is in charge. At the same time, He has given us the freedom to obey or disobey Him, and there are some things that God does only in answer to prayer (James 4:2).