Bush Defends US Record On Darfur

[Peter Parka]

What uprising and unrest? Do you mean the foreigner aided terrorists fighting against the idea of a freely elected government? Those fighting for another saddam that would murder any political opposition?

The terrorists were never there before the invasion because Bin Laden hated Saddam, they have come in since. Secondly, all the Sunni and Sheites stuff which has kicked off again because they are free from Saddams harsh methods of sorting this. Not saying he was right by any means but this isn't a country you and I are used to. Sunnis and Sheites arn't going to stop fighting each other because that's not the way we do things in the West!

 

[Pudding Time]

Didn't they initially send in 20,000 marines to Somalia from Dec. 1992 to May 1993?

Ahh you're talking about Operation Restore Hope. Yes, 25,000 US troops were sent into to Somalia to restore the peace and allow aid into the country. This is not the type of operation that is needed in Darfur. They need to disarm those responsible for these crimes and return power to opposing rebel forces (SPLA).

 

[Tim]

What uprising and unrest? Do you mean the foreigner aided terrorists fighting against the idea of a freely elected government? Those fighting for another saddam that would murder any political opposition?

Those are a very small percentage of the insurgents in Iraq. The majority of the insurgents in Iraq are people who live there, not some foreign terrorists imported to fight the Americans.

 

[gLing]

Those are a very small percentage of the insurgents in Iraq. The majority of the insurgents in Iraq are people who live there, not some foreign terrorists imported to fight the Americans.

How do you know this? And if true what exactly are they fighting for? A saddam replacement so they can be in power?

 

[gLing]

Ahh you're talking about Operation Restore Hope. Yes, 25,000 US troops were sent into to Somalia to restore the peace and allow aid into the country. This is not the type of operation that is needed in Darfur. They need to disarm those responsible for these crimes and return power to opposing rebel forces (SPLA).

How are you going to do that in Darfur without an invasion?

 

[Tim]

How do you know this? And if true what exactly are they fighting for? A saddam replacement so they can be in power?

It's from sectarian violence. You have two major denominations of Islam in Iraq, sunni and shi'a which have significant theological and legal differences.
Over 95% of the insurgent violence you hear about in Iraq is related to the ethnic violence between these two groups.
Shi'a are being driven out of Sunni neighborhoods and vice versa. As these neighborhoods settled down you get two things, refugees and less violence...

 

[gLing]

It's from sectarian violence. You have two major denominations of Islam in Iraq, sunni and shi'a which have significant theological and legal differences.
Over 95% of the insurgent violence you hear about in Iraq is related to the ethnic violence between these two groups.
Shi'a are being driven out of Sunni neighborhoods and vice versa. As these neighborhoods settled down you get two things, refugees and less violence...

So they were not really fighting against the US but against each other in an attempt to fill a power vacuum.

 

[Tim]

So they were not really fighting against the US but against each other in an attempt to fill a power vacuum.

They were not trying to fill a power vacuum at all. They have been at "war" with each other for centuries. It was Saddam who kept these groups in check. We are talking about millions of people who are now refugees because of displacement with the sectarian divides. The US stood by and watched this happen, we helped build walls through the middle of neighborhoods.
The only power grabs that are going on are with the local tribesman.

My problem with this, is that the US government knew this would happen. They knew how unstable Iraq would become with Saddam removed from power. Sure, he needed to go, but by force was not the best way. Letting it happen from within, with our help would have kept Iraq more stable and easier to control. That would have been the way to set up a stable democracy if that was the true goal.

 

[BadBoy@TheWheel]

They were not trying to fill a power vacuum at all. They have been at "war" with each other for centuries. It was Saddam who kept these groups in check. We are talking about millions of people who are now refugees because of displacement with the sectarian divides. The US stood by and watched this happen, we helped build walls through the middle of neighborhoods.
The only power grabs that are going on are with the local tribesman.

My problem with this, is that the US government knew this would happen. They knew how unstable Iraq would become with Saddam removed from power. Sure, he needed to go, but by force was not the best way. Letting it happen from within, with our help would have kept Iraq more stable and easier to control. That would have been the way to set up a stable democracy if that was the true goal.

But Tim, dropping massive amounts of bombs and shooting people is so much more fun than diplomacy.

 

[gLing]

They were not trying to fill a power vacuum at all. They have been at "war" with each other for centuries. It was Saddam who kept these groups in check. We are talking about millions of people who are now refugees because of displacement with the sectarian divides. The US stood by and watched this happen, we helped build walls through the middle of neighborhoods.
The only power grabs that are going on are with the local tribesman.

My problem with this, is that the US government knew this would happen. They knew how unstable Iraq would become with Saddam removed from power. Sure, he needed to go, but by force was not the best way. Letting it happen from within, with our help would have kept Iraq more stable and easier to control. That would have been the way to set up a stable democracy if that was the true goal.

I am not so sure about this. Yes Saddam kept the two sides in check but with tyranny, he oppressed his people to achieve this.
Yes the US going in is like stirring up an ant hill but look at it in the long run. A free Iraq is better for all in the end.

 

[BadBoy@TheWheel]

I am not so sure about this. Yes Saddam kept the two sides in check but with tyranny, he oppressed his people to achieve this.
Yes the US going in is like stirring up an ant hill but look at it in the long run. A free Iraq is better for all in the end.

What we are doing is no different, we just have not gassed anyone.....Yet, but fiscal tyranny, social tyranny, I mean what's the difference.

With an actual LEADER in place, both groups stayed at ease, Saddam was certainly not the answer (after he did our bidding) but the current "government" in place there does not stand a snowballs chance in hell of accomplishing anything because what lines were there are now gone.

 

[gLing]

What we are doing is no different, we just have not gassed anyone.....Yet, but fiscal tyranny, social tyranny, I mean what's the difference.

With an actual LEADER in place, both groups stayed at ease, Saddam was certainly not the answer (after he did our bidding) but the current "government" in place there does not stand a snowballs chance in hell of accomplishing anything because what lines were there are now gone.

Not gassed anyone yet? Fiscal and social tyranny? What are you talking about?

 

[BadBoy@TheWheel]

Not gassed anyone yet? Fiscal and social tyranny? What are you talking about?

You made reference to how bad Saddam was, that he was a tyrant, to me us drawing the dividing line and basically doing in Iraq what is being done in Isreal is no different, basically "You have to move.....Because we said so"

The only thing Saddam did any different than what we are doing right now was use less ground troops to be a tyrant.

You do not fix infighting amongst tribes with THOUSANDS OF YEARS OF FIGHTING under their belts by......Fighting them:unsure:

I mean by the Bush standard, the only way they will listen is by killing them...But the dead don't hear very well...Thye also don't testify

 

[dt3]

Remember Somalia and going in there giving aid? It did not work.

Correction: It worked for the Marines, then they turned it over to the UN, then the UN fucked it up as usual